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"You were eaten by a gelatinous cube while you were away/asleep. We did everything we could, but it was huge. We miss your guy, he was pretty cool.
Would you like to come in as an easy to play character? Like a bard or fighter?"
Does your DM runs or plans to run WotR as written or cranck it up 4 or 5 notches?
He's not cranking it up as far as I know, but we are gaining mythic tiers more slowly so we don't start walking through things.
I'm chronically late for things, but it doesn't mean that I'm not interested in what's going on. If the player is just missing the session entirely that implies a lack of interest, but maybe it could be just a scheduling problem.
We've already rescheduled our meeting time because of attendance issues. He said that Saturday nights were completely fine. We're also totally understanding when something unexpected comes up, but he's much more likely to find out about another event that he'd rather go to and then not tell us until the day of.
"If you don't know what you're doing this turn-I skip you (10 second count).
If you want to use a special ablity/feat/spell it's your job to have the facts ready, if not it doesn't work.
I will not interfer with your leveling and all choices are final."After that I refused to spend extra time on him instead of other players and I shot down any attempts to make me do his homework, I pretty much told him indirectly "Step up or GTFO".
In this case it worked, after some harsh rejections and realizations he started picking up the slack, started reading up on rules and learned to be more patient about his character.
(a lot...
Yeah, if I were DMing, I'd have already done that a long time ago. Our DM has tried to do that a bit, although a lot more diplomatically because he's got real-world friendships to think about with the player. But I've stopped being as helpful.
Honestly, I think magus was a poor choice for this. About half of the experienced players that I know have trouble keeping track of all the things a magus might/should/could do in a round. They have some really fiddly rules that are fairly complex.
Add on mythic and I can see a lot of people just giving up.
Did he really need spells or did he just want some unusual powers.
If he really wants a caster, it is possible to build an oracle or sorcerer that is relatively simple to play, survivable, and effective. Simple and/or static bloodline abilities, group buff spells (that the other players then need to keep track of not him), heals, and out of combat utility spells.
Yeah, we're kind of regretting it now, but he's really liked his character and we're a bit loath to take it away from him. As for magic, yeah. He specifically wanted to cast spells. For Mythic, it's got a bunch of flavory things based on which path you choose, but for him we basically ignore it so he doesn't have to deal with it. (in the name of simplifying things as much as possible). But he specifically wanted magic and melee. So we gave him an archetype that cuts off a lot of the extra things a magus can do in favor of making a few of them more powerful.
The problem with support spells that he wouldn't have to keep track of, is that if he's not contributing damage to the battle, he doesn't feel like he's contributing at all. Which is why I really wish we could've convinced him to play LG, so I could just hand him the paladin sheet until he really learned the mechanics.
The problem with support spells that he wouldn't have to keep track of, is that if he's not contributing damage to the battle, he doesn't feel like he's contributing at all. Which is why I really wish we could've convinced him to play LG, so I could just hand him the paladin sheet until he really learned the mechanics.
It would require some work, but maybe you could find a way to have bard spell slots boost his bardic performance rather than being used for spells and have his bardic performance be his "magic." Maybe let him feed spell slots into bardic performance to increase his rounds/day available or give bigger boosts from inspire courage and the like. Or maybe substitute the support spells on the bard list with attack spells that he has regularly used as a magus. It would simplify the character sheet. Most of the bardic performances would boost him as well as others, so it would be support, but he would directly benefit from it as well. Also, once he starts a performance, he can sustain it and attack at the same time with no special rules being required to do so. Give him arcane duelist, and he gets some nice combat feats as well. It would take some tinkering to figure out how to pull it off, but probably no more than holding his hand all the time like you are right now.
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Well, the problem was that our player really wanted to be magical in some way. We were trying to find a balance between overwhelming him with spell listings, but letting him have some magic. We didn't push him to pick a martial class because we also weren't going to have any arcane magic at that point anyway.
I was initially going to suggest him play a paladin (since WotR is great for pallys) but he's not the type to play LG basically ever.
We also already had a ranger and a rogue.
The DM and I are just kind of not sure how to deal with him. He wanted magic, so we tried to give him a more limited magic to not overwhelm him. But he's been playing for 7 months and still doesn't know where things on his sheet are outside of AC, HP, and attack bonuses.
I think we're considering stripping his magic (or rather, asking him to, since he doesn't use it anyway) but we're trying to make sure it doesn't stop being fun.
Why the heck didn't you stick him as a bloodrager? Its a simpler magus, I don't actually own the book but I have looked it over and its pretty simple. A bloodrager is a redneck magus, there is no denying that. It seems like a really fun class for a new player.
I second the spell cards suggestion, but don't make them for him. Tell him to make them.
Writing/typing it yourself helps put it in your memory.
At his next level up, do not provide him with a sheet update. Make him do it. Then have the DM tell him that to gain his level he has to go through an Academy trial or something to prove his worth of holding the new level.
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If falls and he really just wants to "hang out" (and the group is ok with that), then bring in the fifth player and demote this guy to a role he can be useful and still have fun.
Only issue with an Academy Trial is that we're out in the middle of nowhere basically, surrounded by evil and demons, and trying to reclaim a fortress... there's really nowhere that something like that could be worked into the campaign right now. We *might* be able to do in in like a month after we've claimed the fortress, but probably not anytime sooner.
This is a common occurrence with anyone who didn't really grow up playing these type of games. There is a process to fully "getting" what is needed to play, and there are probably times where an otherwise would-be-very-good-at-DnD person just doesn't make it past that hurdle. ...
1. Take a consistent, fair-but-firm approach to dealing with the constant lack of character knowledge. He will have to find incentive to learn it to put the effort in. Keep telling him to look things up and suffer consequences of not remembering or being more prepared (i.e. "ok, sorry, moving on..."). This should create incentive to want faster ways of knowing, like the cheat sheets.
2. In doing so, you have to first let go and know that him deciding not to play is a real possibility. This is very important.If he really just wants to hang out... then there's no changing that, at least not quickly.
That issue with getting past the hurdle is why we're really trying to get him invested in his character. He's great at roleplay and a lot of fun when we're not in combat. And it's why we don't want to just cut him out of the group. But at the same time, it's hard to find a balance to keep him contributing and not dragging down the game.
Why the heck didn't you stick him as a bloodrager? Its a simpler magus, I don't actually own the book but I have looked it over and its pretty simple. A bloodrager is a redneck magus, there is no denying that. It seems like a really fun class for a new player.
Because we're using Hero Lab and that's not in the supplements we have available. The idea was to share a HL license so he could tweak his character at home, so we have to stick to the stuff that's available through there.
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Still, there are times that you need to just cut your plans and run with a new idea. If he has internet, the archives of nethys or D20PFSRD and his character sheet should work, hell, even the PRD should let him build a bloodrager. Besides, I seriously think if you don't give him a bloodrager, you are doing something wrong. Bloodrager is magical and smashy. Two things newbies love. Smashing heads and burning things.
Still, there are times that you need to just cut your plans and run with a new idea. If he has internet, the archives of nethys or D20PFSRD and his character sheet should work, hell, even the PRD should let him build a bloodrager. Besides, I seriously think if you don't give him a bloodrager, you are doing something wrong. Bloodrager is magical and smashy. Two things newbies love. Smashing heads and burning things.
There's still the problem of him actually going through and reading things. Which is where the entire issue stems from in the first place with his magus. If he doesn't know where to find spell durations with a magus, he's not going to know where to find them for a custom cross-class that he'd have to build from scratch.
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true, but theres also the fact you might just need to talk to him, most of the time, if you simply take him to an area where the party won't hear and ask him whats going on thats preventing him from focusing on the game, he might tell you. If I could help more than giving advice, I would. I don't think the postal service will carry teenagers though.
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Sorry if some of this has already been suggested but if his problem is being overwhelmed at the sheets then I'd have to suggest talking to him a lot and figuring out what he easily understands and what he needs help with. I know some strategies that work for some people completely fail for others. I know for me Perram's spellbook is really helpful for spell tracking. Have him print his spell book and some copies of spells he preps multiple times in a day and make a deck and then lay his preps on the table when he starts then when he uses them flip them over or something to show they are used. Next I would say dial down dice are really helpful in my experience to keep track of my modular numbers and are usually pretty easy to get a hold of. You can get them from buying magic fat packs and if you have magic: the gathering players floating around you probably have a few near the table.
After that the other big thing I can say is that the magus itself is not exactly the easiest class to play first time nor WotR especially once he has to start worrying about mythic tiers and all that they entail. The former he's likely going to have to just sit down and work on away from the table so that he starts getting the mechanics down but the latter can be a serious problem. If mythic powers become something he has a real difficulty grasping then you might have to let him go since they aren't going to be getting any less complicated.
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Still, there are times that you need to just cut your plans and run with a new idea. If he has internet, the archives of nethys or D20PFSRD and his character sheet should work, hell, even the PRD should let him build a bloodrager. Besides, I seriously think if you don't give him a bloodrager, you are doing something wrong. Bloodrager is magical and smashy. Two things newbies love. Smashing heads and burning things.There's still the problem of him actually going through and reading things. Which is where the entire issue stems from in the first place with his magus. If he doesn't know where to find spell durations with a magus, he's not going to know where to find them for a custom cross-class that he'd have to build from scratch.
Sorry to say if he doesn't like reading a lot then this might not be the game for him lol. Pathfinder and for that matter most tabletops require a good amount of reading even for some of the most basic classes and not wanting to do even basic reading of your spells is kind of breaking the covenant you make when you join the vast majority of groups. If your boy wants to continue playing his magus your GM probably needs to talk to him and make it clear that READING THE BOOK is going to be pretty essential for him to continue to play without him becoming a burden to the rest of the party. Maybe offer him the chance to respec into something like a fighter which might have less reading requirement or system savvy?
Another interesting option is to embrace him as a part time player. Ask him if he's really that interested in being a dedicated player (making every session, learning his character, etc.) or if he's looking to just try the game from time to time or just needs a more flexible schedule. If the latter let him be part time. Put his character on some secondary mission off screen that separates him from the party like doing missions for the crusades while your team handles the story proper. From there you guys are more open to do your own thing, maybe even search out a player who is more dedicated to fill in as a more permanent member.
A Battle Oracle would be pretty cool. Magic + Fighting.
And healing!
In Rise of the Rune Lords, I tried a Magus and didn't like it, so I switched to a Bard Archetype (Arcane Duelist)
The Bard still gets spells, but they can be buffing spells. They can help the party or help him. He can also Sing to buff the party.
Some people see the Bard as just another (or better) Rogue, but the Arcane duelist doesn't have to be built that way. He can be built like a pretty good fighter. Like the Magus he gets to wear armor while casting spells, and eventually gets to cast spells in heavy armor.
Though I have found the Arcane duelist a lot easier compared to the Magus, I wonder if your friend would think 'oh no not again'
Another idea would be a Dawnflower Deverish (bard). If he thinks the performances are complicated, the dawnflower would have most of them just on the Dawnflower. He could then cast just defensive spells.
Here is something else that is useful Perram's Spellbook 2 Alpha
Print out spell cards and your friend can look up the spells for the class that he is using. Next time he asks about a spell, he can look it up himself.
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But he specifically wanted magic and melee. ...
I would suggest oracle and help him select the simplest spells and revelations.
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The problem with support spells that he wouldn't have to keep track of, is that if he's not contributing damage to the battle, he doesn't feel like he's contributing at all. Which is why I really wish we could've convinced him to play LG, so I could just hand him the paladin sheet until he really learned the mechanics.
One of my friends once had a similar complaint about his support caster. Without saying anything I added up all the damage from the extra attacks granted by Haste, the hits that would have missed without the Bless and Prayer, the damage done by the guy that would have died to the opening scorching ray (without the Prot Fire), etc...
After the session I showed him the totals which were about double the next closest character. All that damage is directly the result of your spells plus you saved John the price of a Raise Dead. Actually the whole group was astonished and started to appreciate the contributions of the support caster a lot more.
Even so, there are also offensive spells where the caster doesn't have to do much other than cast it. Hold Person or Blindness are the first 2 that come to mind.
Definitely play when he can't make it. His not showing up shouldn't ruin it for everyone.
Also, talk to him about his character. Let him re-build it if he wants to. Especially the crunchy bits. A Fighter 1/Sorcerer X/Eldritch Knight might be a whole lot more fun and easier for him.
About his character sheet, try to customize it for him. Color code it, use BOLD ALL CAPS to label different areas on the sheet (skills, spells, attack rolls, saves, hit points, speed, initiative, etc.). Make spell cards for him. And teach him how to use his character sheet and spell cards. Don't tell him how long invisiblity lasts, show him how he can find out on his spell card how long invisiblity lasts.
I used to play a dwarf barbarian 1/magus 7 for a while, and it was pretty complex. Rage Power Attacks one-handed, Rage two-handed non-Power Attack, Non-raging, Power Attack two-handed, etc. etc. etc.
We've rebuilt his character once already. But I'm also worried about scrapping his character and rolling up a new one that's simpler overall. He isn't trying to understand the basic things like why he can't move and cast and strike all in one round. Giving him something entirely new is just going to put him back at square one with no idea how to do anything.
As for spell cards, I end up being the one to keep his spell list updated (which I really don't mind doing. I made an Excel sheet that keeps things neat and auto-calculates things when he levels up https://www.dropbox.com/s/ugsqmirokoa8e0z/HuttoSpells.pdf?dl=0 )
And he still doesn't want to read things enough to have a basic understanding of his spells.
You could use THIS to create physical cards, then he could group/turn over as required. The extra visuals may help.
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Simplest solution; when he asks how to do something you tell him to look it up and hand him the book. Don't look things up for him anymore. There's an apendix in all the books, so he doesn't really need people to tell him how to do anything. If he gets better at playing his character awesome. If not then you can ask him if he really wants to play or is just hanging out. Be sure to tell him that it's cool if he just wants to hang out, but add that the rest of you are really here to play the game. He'll either get it and start playing his character or quit. Either is better than your current situation.
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Yes, the stern teacher solution.
You want to learn, here is the book, there will be no more hand-holding.
Harsh but fair.