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I've encountered a trend as of late.
DMs, and indeed other players seem to react to the presence of a LN with groans and sighs whereas the once denigrated and hated CN is given more of a pass.
This is obviously anecdotal (pretty much everything on these forums is), but it seems as if LNs are viewed as worse scolds then LGs and also ironically as causing problems for DMs who seem to assume their adventurers to be wild free spirits possessed of abusable egos.
I've spoken to DMs who seemed strangely irritated the LN didn't rise to challenge or insult as it was against the law, meaning he was robbed of his bar fight potential.
Others seemed to dislike the 'vulcan' LN who doesn't let things like anger, revenge, or even seeking for personal comfort and acclaim to get in the way of a narrow, goal-oriented outlook on things.
The 'we have a dragon to kill, why are you wasting money buying fancy clothes for some woman you just met?' guy. Or in Pathfinder sense, the guy who'd insist on no partying or relaxing what-so-ever until the goblin threat to Sandpoint had been resolved.
I've experienced this a bit myself as a LN character, when the DM seemed to assume I'd be motivated out of spite, or show greater loyalty to my party members (pre-established to be a purely business relationship) then the local law enforcement.
I've also had the goal-oriented thing thrown at me, when I powered past subplots (resulting in a party split for a while) since they only interfered with what our stated goal was. Meaning the DM, unfortunately, had to deal with trying to simultaneously run his light fun side quest stuff alongside the tougher darker stuff I was encountering.
Now I've asked around a bit about this in what passes for meatspace, and the usual reasons I've gotten are.
1.) LN causes as much trouble as CN, but the trouble he causes isn't 'fun.'
2.) Players seem to dislike when a party member takes the NPC sides instead of theirs.
3.) DMs don't like when the player isn't really engaging with the environment so much as 'surrendering' to it.
4.) LNs tend to want to know what the legal situation is in cities and environments where the DM'd rather not put too much thought into it. The lawyer tendency also results in them unintentionally kicking the pillars out that suspend disbelief.
So what do you folks think?
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I think they can be quite engaging with the right DM. I recently came upon the idea to throw a simple encounter at the party, a bunch of drunk goblins. They were easily trounced, and the woman they were attacking was saved... or so the party thought. Then cue the guards. Turns out the goblins were official employees of the city as sewer cleaners and steamwork maintenance workers. The girl they were accosting wasn't being threatened, but was trying to get to them to pay up after a night of legal prostitution. Thus the entire party was charged with "Criminal Actions including Murder and open Hate Crimes against another race." Thus the chase began with the party's LN Investigator trying to use the system to prove their innocence. The Barbarian was proven as Ignorant due to mild insanity, the wizard was diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder due to his family being wiped out by goblins, and the ranger actually at one point had a contract from another region to slay all goblins on sight the party had forgotten about in and out of character. In the end, though, the Investigator could not prove his own innocence and made a deal with the local leaders to help clear actual problems around the town for six months. During the day he helps as a free barrister for the poor, and at night he's sent on suicide missions with the party who are grateful to him after saving their rumps many times over.
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Tell them to stop being t%@!s and actually read the description of Lawful Neutral.
"A lawful neutral character acts as law, tradition, or a personal code directs her. Order and organization are paramount. She may believe in personal order and live by a code or standard, or she may believe in order for all and favor a strong, organized government.
Lawful neutral means you are reliable and honorable without being a zealot."
Lawful Neutral does not require you to follow the law.
Lawful Neutral does not require you to be emotionless.
Lawful Neutral does not require you to be a teetotaler, pennypincher, or buzzkill.
Lawful Neutral EXPLICITLY does not require you to be fanatically dedicated to anything.
Your problems are player problems. Not alignment problems.
Signed, someone whose favorite Neutral alignment is LN.
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I've not seen that trend, but I can understand why people would prefer anything-but-lawful-neutral in their fantasy adventures. Too many people have to be lawful neutral in their daily lives.
I have a three-ring binder on my desk at work. It tells me when I need to come in, when I can leave for lunch, when I have to come back from lunch, and when I can leave for the day. It also tells me that the blue sheet goes to Accounting, the buff sheet to Records, the green sheet to Personnel, and the goldenrod one stays in my filing cabinet. It also dwells at moderate length on the negative consequences if the sheets don't go in the right place.
There's another three-ring binder at home that the doctor provided. It tells me how much I'm allowed to eat and of what. There's a third three-ring binder at the gym that tells me how much weight I'm supposed to lift and how often, depending upon what day it is. Oh, and my kid's teacher just sent home a three-ring binder telling me what I'm supposed to do to make sure little Pugsley gets the best possible educational experience.
And next week I go on a trip, where there's a three-ring binder that lays down how much toothpaste I can take with me (why, yes, I am a praseodymium-level frequent flyer, why do you ask?). There's also a sign prominently posted reminding me that using harsh language to a peace officer is a felony,... but that the peace officer is welcome to say anything he likes to me.
Can you imagine why I might fantasize in my darker moments about punching out a peace officer in the Flagon and Dragon?
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I'm pretty sure I agree with this sentiment...
Every alignment has their 'stupid versions'.
So just like chaotic neutral or lawful good... It can be played a couple different ways. Some of those ways are great... Some of those ways are not.
Chaotic Neutral used to have the baddest rap because it was 'written' to mean 'whimsical and borderline insane'... Not only was it not morally or ethically accountable, it was in fact billed as being appropriate to play inconsistantly from moment to moment. To a certain extent this only really became a problem when the player decided to do something evil... or more specifically when the player chose to do something evil that had an undesirable effect o the party.
Lawful neutral's version of 'stupid' is a completely different 'flavor' but for completely similar reasons. While lawful means he's got a code... Sometimes thats a benevolent standard that he only holds himself to. But when it becomes the same kind of standard that lawful good 'stupid' paladins use... Holding the rest of the party to a standard, or thinking of them as 'worse than the LawfulGood/Stupid' player... A snobbishness/pompousness/arrogance... or when it means the party is then forced to do something it's not really interested in then thats again an undesirable effect on the party. There's an important difference though.
The difference between a lawfulgood/stupid and a lawfulneutral/stupid (and the thing that makes it worse) is that when these things happen, its no longer necessary to have the pretense of goodness as your justification for causing the trouble... Sure this guy could be a kwai chang caine trying to better the world with his moral and ethical views which would be mostly fine. But if its just a Judge Dredd unilaterally dispensing justice, its only mostly fine when aimed at npcs... Point that douchey pompous arrogance and unilateral judgement against the party that doesnt share that definition of justice.... and you're in for bad times. You've crossed the threshhold into 'I'm not a jerk.. I'm just PLAYING a jerk...' territory.
Of all the 'stupid' versions of alignments, I agree that lawful neutral stupid is the one I dislike the most. For the same reason that chaotic neutral stupid or lawful good stupid are bad... that they're played so close to the line of chaotic evil or lawful evil that its neutral in name only. What makes it worse is that a chaotic neutral is kind of expected to do things not everyone would agree with and never 'expects others to agree with his antics'... Lawful neutral can sometimes be holding other party members under his 'version' of law... Either subjecting them to scrutiny they don't agree with, or holding them to a standard or 'law' they dont agree with... When Lawful good is a douche, he can somewhat excuse it because he's trying to do 'good'... In doing 'good' he expects you might not agree with it but he can sort of expect you to deal with it... When chaotic neutral is a douche, he can somewhat excuse it because he's just being him, not expecting you to agree with it, and most likely being ok with the consequences of your disagreeing with it. Certainly not expecting you to 'like it'.
Absolutely Lawful neutral does things his own way.
On the other hand... When he's a douche...
So yeah. When Lawful Neutral is a 'personal code' and the player can 'keep it personal as in a code just for himself'... Works out fine. Using it as a method to judge npcs usually turns into using it to judge pcs... and suddenly you're 'Playing a Jerk'... And anyone who's had the conversation about 'I'm not a jerk, I'm just PLAYING a jerk' knows that the reason it doesnt work isn't because people can't tell the difference... Its because often, at the end of the day, in fuctionality (the way it effects the other players) there usually isn't a difference.
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I have a lawful neutral "law of the jungle" druid. The law of the jungle, the law of the pack. Tradition, nature's law. The lawful is in the consistency. The neutral is in the ethics being more important than the morals.
My LN druid/monk is all about 'rule of the strong', never backing down from a challenge, and following the proper pecking order.
He's also the bosun of our Skull and Shackles group, i.e. a pirate.
I've encountered a trend as of late.
DMs, and indeed other players seem to react to the presence of a LN with groans and sighs whereas the once denigrated and hated CN is given more of a pass.
This is obviously anecdotal (pretty much everything on these forums is), but it seems as if LNs are viewed as worse scolds then LGs and also ironically as causing problems for DMs who seem to assume their adventurers to be wild free spirits possessed of abusable egos.
I've spoken to DMs who seemed strangely irritated the LN didn't rise to challenge or insult as it was against the law, meaning he was robbed of his bar fight potential.
Others seemed to dislike the 'vulcan' LN who doesn't let things like anger, revenge, or even seeking for personal comfort and acclaim to get in the way of a narrow, goal-oriented outlook on things.
The 'we have a dragon to kill, why are you wasting money buying fancy clothes for some woman you just met?' guy. Or in Pathfinder sense, the guy who'd insist on no partying or relaxing what-so-ever until the goblin threat to Sandpoint had been resolved.
I've experienced this a bit myself as a LN character, when the DM seemed to assume I'd be motivated out of spite, or show greater loyalty to my party members (pre-established to be a purely business relationship) then the local law enforcement.
I've also had the goal-oriented thing thrown at me, when I powered past subplots (resulting in a party split for a while) since they only interfered with what our stated goal was. Meaning the DM, unfortunately, had to deal with trying to simultaneously run his light fun side quest stuff alongside the tougher darker stuff I was encountering.
Now I've asked around a bit about this in what passes for meatspace, and the usual reasons I've gotten are.
1.) LN causes as much trouble as CN, but the trouble he causes isn't 'fun.'
2.) Players seem to dislike when a party member takes the NPC sides instead of theirs.
3.) DMs don't like when the player isn't really engaging with the...
What a dirty roleplayer, accepting and understanding the setting, its cultures and institutions, going along with the law and treating npcs like people.
Off with his head!
LN aren't the problem, LN betraying the murder hobo party is seen as the problem.
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My half orc ranger, grol is LN. He isn't exactly a devout follower of laws, but he doesn't cause needless chaos. Hes willing to intimidate merchants into giving him stuff, but won't just take it from them. Again, it was my first character and I seriously don't exactly have enough free time to look the sheet over and correct it by hand.
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I usually play Lawful Neutral has having a very strict code of honor, but not one that's particularly altruistic.
My last LN character, for instance, was in our 5E game - a Paladin of Vengeance who believed that everyone must pay for their sins (including himself). He would take a final confession but still execute the guilty as he was absolving their souls by giving them a chance to ask for redemption and doling out the penance they needed for the confession to be accepted.
I did a Half-Orc Fighter based on Charon from Fallout 3. Once he signed a contract, he was unbreakably loyal to the person he'd contract himself to. It never came up, but if his party did ever commit an unspeakable evil (like, raising the dead or selling children into slavery) he would complete his contract with them, but once it was over, all bets were off.
But ultimately, I feel like every alignment has its detractors:
LG - Stick in the mud.
NG - Typically the most accepted, but considered dull.
CG - Trite, wants to be the 'good guy' but still screw other people over.
LN - Like LG, but more orderly stick in the mud than "Good" stick in the mud.
TN - Doesn't care about anything.
CN - We all know why people hate this one.
Whole Evil spectrum - Don't want problematic jerks who are going to screw the party when it suits them.