This in part also belongs into the Rules Questions subforum, but I did not want to split the issue into parts (before acquiring some third-party thoughts on the whole thing), so please bear with me.
Sort of a follow-up on this old thread; did not earn much participation, but since then the tools have been upgraded and here I am again.
Race Building a Minotaur and failing abysmally.
After much tinkering with the Ability Scores I eventually faltered and decided to keep those for last.
Now, I have the following setup: - 7 RP Large Size: +2 STR -2 DEX -1 AC -1 AB +1 CMB -4 Stealth
- 3 RP Monstrous Humanoid: Darkvision 12 sq.
- 4 RP All-Around Vision: +4 Perception, immune to flanking
- 0 RP Xenophobic: Language Giant
- 2 RP Natural Armor: +1 (natural) AC
- 3 RP Improved Natural Armor: +3 (natural, stacking) AC
- 1 RP Natural Attack: Gore (Horns) 1d6
- 1 RP Reach 10 sq.
- 2 RP Powerful Charge: Horns 2d6+1.5xSTR-Mod
for a total of 23 Race Points.
Still missing: - Immunity to being flat-footed
- +4 Survival
- Immunity vs. Maze spell
For the attributes, I still need and have at my disposal - -3 INT
- -2 CHA
- +1 Attribute Point from Hit Dice
to reach the Bestiary stats of 19 STR, 10 DEX, 15 CON, 7 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA.
I can use Ability Score Modifier Qualities as listed and NPC Ability Scores.
... Originally I did not want to use the latter, but I need them for the points to add up.
I have drafted two methods to reproduce the Ability Scores from the Beastiary: - +2 RP Flexible Racial Ability Mods +2 STR +2 CON
+1 CON for 4 HD beyond the first
15 10 12 7 10 8 point buy for Minotaur NPC
- -1 RP Weakness Racial Ability Mods +2 DEX +2 WIS -4 CHA
+1 CHA for 4 HD beyond the first
17 10 15 7 8 11 point buy for heroic Minotaur NPC
Skill points and number of feats seem to add up trivially at least.
--
Now, I have a few problems with the results of this approach, which I am not too sure how to tackle: - This is "just" a minotaur, yet with >20 points to be treated like an elder dragon (or god).
- There are no racial traits to close the gap between Beastiary Minotaur and this one (see "Still missing" above).
I wonder whether the immunity to being flat-footed (vs. weaker immunity against being flanked) is a mistake in the Beastiary.
... Granted, usually effects state explicitely that DEX-Bonus is lost, without mentioning being flat-footed, so the actual outcome may be more similar than is obvious ().
Why is the worse choice (Xenophobic vs. Standard; both 0 RP) not cheaper!? For PCs loss of Common language is a real downgrade.
Why is there no +Survival trait and neither a +<any skill> trait?
As Large Size does only what I listed up there, and all usual benefits (reach, physical attributes) have to be added separately, what makes it so expensive!? It adds downsides such as increased chance of Obstacles and Squeezing (added Difficult Terrain; -4 AC, possible loss of DEX bonus) or more expensive items; and all benefits (but added height, and thence "reach" upwards; but then height is not actually mentioned, so this could be considered house rule already) cost extra!?
The Minotaur (the Beastiary entry would correspond to a lvl 6 PC) does not seem strong enough to warrant this cost... I had hoped to stay Advanced with one point to spare for custom Weapon Familiarity (Fluff, all the fluff!), but it looks as if it would have to go a lot past Monstrous - and mainly due to its size: Dropping only that and Reach I gain !!8 points!! and therefore could boost the attributes beyond the Beastiary entry without becoming monstrous.
- No surprise then, that searching the internet has unearthed a plethora of medium sized custom Minotaur builds but not a single appropriately large sized one.
I guess at whole, I am not convinced that this Race Builder thingy is actually a functional tool. See:
"This is the race's creature type. A race's creature type is similar to the corresponding creature type, with a few important differences. The first difference is that each race type assumes members of the race are roughly humanoid in shape and have two arms, two legs, a torso, and a head. This is important so that a race can take advantage of all the various magic item slots available to characters and can utilize the standard weapon and armor options."
So, quite obviously I should not even try to build a Sphinx, huh?
Because it has no arms and this should somehow correspond with reduced RP value (so that can be spent to somehow reach the godlike abiliy scores).
Any input is appreciated (well, apart from "you cannot do that", I guess; had that the last time and unsurprisingly it did not help).
Two more thoughts on the matter:
In order to easily provide a medium sized variant, I wondered whether I should build the Minotaur with the Giant Creature template per default... then I noticed that this does not just increase size but also grants +2 STR +4 CON!
This cannot be right!?
(assuming that size changes affect STR and DEX by 2 per step)
I cross-referenced that with Drow vs. Drow Noble scores, and sure enough the noble gets a total +6 ability score as well, plus other quite substancial goodies, so mayhap this is still ballpark.
- Mayhap the large Minotaur could be monstrous while the medium one were still Advanced?
But the large one already gets away with a negative RP cost for attributes, without template! Where will this go, if I apply six bonus points stacked in such a way as to reduce point-buy cost immensely on top of that!?
Since this intended for an NPC, why do you not simply use the rules from page 296 from the Bestiary.
Have you looked at the Ogre on page page 229 of the Advanced Race Guide?
You will note that it doesn't attempt an exact match of the write-up in the Bestiary on page 220.
If you work it out, the stats end up being ...
+6 Strength = +4 Paragon, +2 Large
-2 Dexterity = -2 Large
+2 Constitution = +2 Advanced Constitution
-2 Intelligence = -2 Paragon
+0 Wisdom = -2 Paragon, +2 Advanced Wisdom
-2 Charisma = -2 Paragon
This is no where near the +10 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Int, +0 Wis, -4 Chr from the ogre write up.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
I guess I don't really understand your question.
The race builder is a useful heuristic to help determine how powerful a given PC race is, not for recreating a monster from the Bestiary.
A minotaur as written would be a pretty darned OP for a PC at first level. The numbers in the race builder reflect that.
The Bestiary Minotaur, having 6 HD, is obviously nothing a PC would have on level 1.
However, I would like to set it up in such a way that one possible build of a Minotaur PC would on level 6 have equal stats (minus class abilities) to the Bestiary Minotaur.
A Minotaur Sorcerer would probably not be that build.
For consistency. There is no point in rules without that.
The example Ogre seems to share its issues with my Minotaur draft:
Its Attribute Score can be bought from point-buy 14 10 13 8 10 9 (with +1 STR from HD) for a cost of 5, while either 3 (basic NPC) or 15 (heroic NPC) would be appropriate. This indicates that a PC Ogre would be "naturally" superior in terms of ability score.
At the same time, the example Ogre lacks three points of natural armour which cannot be accounted for by feat, as the Bestiary Ogre's feat slots for 4 HD are already full.
This is, thence, an inconsistency, adding to my feeling that the Race Builder may be broken.
On the other hand, that Ogre is obviously of poor make, as the attribute boni can be dropped for -8 RP, bringing point-buy cost of the Beastiary score to 11 (via 14 10 15 8 12 9; +1 STR from HD), still four points short the heroic NPC / Standard Fantasy mark.
Then three RP could be spent to adjust the natural armour to proper +5 and the creature would still be Advanced, not Monstrous.
- Mayhap one should better ignore this example.
Note that, given the wording of the rulebook, I might as well demand even harder constraints regarding the Ability Scores:
"Basic NPCs: The ability scores for a basic NPC are: 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8.
Heroic NPCs: The ability scores for a heroic NPC are: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8."
As all the Beastiary entries are without a doubt NPCs, I could demand that their ability scores be reachable with exactly these values used in point-buy. Of course, even the most cursory glance shows that this would be doomed to fail; so I merely demand matching totals: 3 or 15.
Furthermore, I do not care about the optimal point-buy setup. But there should be one that reaches the given Ability Scores and matches one of these totals. Need to draw the line somewhere!
Mayhap it is all poor semantics? The race builder - is not meant to build? Is meant to benchmark pre-built, without Race Builder created Species? Then obviously I use it wrongly, trying to build with a "builder".
--
To clearly state my goal in the whole ordeal, I wish to enable the following process: - Pick any entry from the Bestiaries.
- Determine how powerful the assorted creature would be at 0 HD.
- Create a character of such species and play that.
Unlike the troublesome Monsters as PCs rules, the Race Builder promises a simple model to account for imbalances which may occur. It would also (if only it worked) be much more convenient to use than my previous approach "design matching prestige class alongside 0HD-normed creature version and offer #HD levels in that".
On the other hand, I cannot see it working for a Sphinx, period.
(But I yet have to do the math on that.)
On the plus side, the Minotaur draft would not reach 30 RP in the worst case and averaging with core races would almost certainly pull below 20 with two more party members. The points spent are thence still ballpark enough to be used, but still: - Is the cost for Large Size warranted?
- How many RP are +4 Survival worth?
Static Bonus Feat does not cut it, obviously.
- How many RP is immunity to the Maze spell worth?
There is a very extensive article about the power level of designed spells in the Ultimate Magic book, but here such considerations are completely absent. Surely the spell level at least should be an indicator for the RP needed for immunity, yet Elven Immunities costs only 2 RP and grants immunity to, say, Mythic Sleep or Symbol of Sleep and assorted Coup de Grace possibilities.
Monsters dont make good PC's for so many reasons.
In general, if a PC race has a higher total improvement to ability scores then +2 then there should be some damn good reasons for why.
If you look at 3.5 there was the level adjustment setting, (which is somewhat similar to the Standard-Advanced-Monstrous thing in race guide).
Stat up a monster as a playable race with large bonuses to ability scores (Crazy stuff like +6 or more str and/or con), grant it some inbuilt natural armor, racial skills and abilities.
For a minotaur character you should aim for a rough level adjustment of +2 or +3, that means that the minotaur would only be a level 3rd or 4th character while everyone else is level 6, this is made up for by the extra stats afforded by the race. The minotour is still treated as a 6th level character for purpose of WBL and CR and stuff like that.
.
Example minotaur race:
Abilities:
+6 Str. +4 Con. -2 Cha.
Natural armor +3.
Immune. Maze.
Immune: Flat footed.
Large.
10ft reach.
Gore 1d6(->1d8 caus of large).
In a game with a generous GM that would be worth roughly +2 level adjustment.
.
When you make stuff like this you need to disregard the official rules a bit, the game designers most certainly do not refer to the rules in Advanced race guide whenever they design a monster or character, they do it by ear and experience. Creating something with ARG compared to doing it the old fashined way is like comparing olympics javelin toss to olympic dart throwing, both sports are about throwing pointy objekts, but they are NOT the same.
For example:
Immunity to maze is an interesting ability, but it is just one spell in thousands, and the odds of ever being hit by it are minute, especially since it is a spell cast by casters whose level is at least three times the CR of the minotaur when encountered, its a fun immunity to have but its just so improbable to be usefull that it is hardly worth anything. I guarantee you that "the power of being immune to Maze" did not affect the Cr of Minutaurs at all, and it shouldnt be accounted for as RP either.
That being said it wouldnt be okay for every race in the game to be immune to some random single spell (lets make drow immune to cloudkill, i dunno why but it sure sounds fun yeah!), the maze immunity is just a tiny thematic ability, its not worth costign anything, but by having it it makes the monster slightly more authentic.
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Race builder isnt broken, its just a system that can be used as a helpful guide to build a creature or an alternate creature. Its not supposed to be used to generate Bestiary entries because Bestiary entries run on entirely different wheels from those player characters do. Race builder generates fair rules for players to conform to, bestiary entries have their own seperate rules.
Have you ever thought "Why dont balor's wear armor? Just one class level of warrior and i could equip it with full plate and make it much harder to kill!"... Dont EVER do that! A balor is a Cr 20 creature, if you look at the AC benchmark for a CR 20 creature on page 291 of the bestiary you will see a Cr 20 creature needs roughly 36 AC, which the Balor has exactly. A Balor with 1 level of Warrior is roughly Cr 21, a creature of Cr 1 should have a rough AC of 37, but if you were to equip this Balor with Full plate its AC would rocket up to 43! For a player character this is part he course, its how the game works, but NPC's as i've said, work differently. Even when you generate NPC's like Wizard villains, ork grunts and Antipaladin side-bosses their statlines should conform to the numbers on page 291 of the bestiary in some manner.
Why do bestiary entries work differently from player characters?
Because bestiary entries work in fixed numbers, "X is an appropriate attack bonus for a creature of Y level". The game designer basicly allocates stuff like Nat armor and STR to hit a desired number, and he does it by the ear.
While player characters work in a system of character balance, "level x player character D is equal in power to his same level peers", the difference is that while player D is selecing a certain set of class features his peers are focusing their characters differently, I.E one player is the tank, another the healer, and so on.
There are rules for adding class levels to monsters in the bestiary, and even they are limited in scope, if you want this "Minotaur race" generated from the ARG to create wizardly Minotaurs you can do the same exact thing by disregarding the ARG completely using just the bestiary and CRB.
Say you want to make a level 7 story for a group of players, its about minotaurs and most of the enemy characters are minotaurs or their minions.
At some point in a dungeon the players fight the final boss and his henchmen.
The final boss is CR 8, a tough foe alone, and he is a Cleric.
His first and best soldier is a fighter minotaur CR 5.
His advisor is a Wizard minotaur, also CR 5.
Lets look at the Fighter minotaur, Minotaurs are brute fighters first and foremost, and this guy is a fighter, so making him CR 5 is nothing hard, just add the fighter level to give him an extra feat to play with, increase his stats according to the numbers on page 291, now lets make him look like a fighter.
Fighter brutes wear armor, but if we give this guy a breastplate then his new AC would be WAY too high, fixing this is easy, the goal AC is 18, minotaurs come quiped with a natural 14 supported by a beefy HP volume, add the Breastplate pushes him up to 20, then just take away 2 points of natural armor, bringing him to a total AC of 18, perfect. Now he looks like a fighter, he fights like a fighter, and his stats are appropriate. Youre not breaking any rules, its just good GM'ing.
Next, the CR 5 wizard. This is gonna be a little tougher. Minotaurs arent wizards, at all, not in the bestiary at least.
To make a minotaur fight and look like a Wizard at CR 5 he A) needs to cast some spells, preferrably level 2 or 3 spells, and B) needs to look a little wizardly, be slightly easier to hit, and easier to affect with CMB. one way to do this, is to scrap the minotaur as he is in the bestiary completely, just forget all the numbers except keep in mind, Minotaurs are beefy, have a racial +4 to Perception and survival, and have the Natural cunning ability. Now write up a new monster statline, to make a suitably beefy wizard he gets a, say, 2 HD of monstrous humanoid, and 5 levels of Wizard. allocate skills, feats, apply the racial benefits. Of course he is large. Give him a Dwarfen longaxe, skin it to look like a long bladed staff. Allocate spells. Now for the ability scores, how much con? How much Str? How much Int? First up, con, his HP so far is 2d10+5d6, we need to aim for somewhere right below 55 (usually wizards have less, but this is a Minotaur wizard, cut him some slack), 2d10+5d6 averages out to 38,5, so a con of 14 would give him 52 hp, perfect. Now for the Str, hes a caster so he wont want to be in melee, but he has a longaxe (wherefrom did he get the proficiency? Monsters are proficient with whatever they are described to have, and I just described him to have a longaxe, simple as that) lets give him below average attack, note the "low attack" number for CR 5 creatures on bestiary page 291? Aim for that, 7, his BAB total is 4 already, -1 from size, so Str 14 hits 5 attack, but lets say 16 instead! Remember, its a Wizard MINOTAUR, minotaurs hit hard. That gives him an attack bonus of +6, make the axe masterwork and voliá, attack bonus +7. His axe hits for 1d12+4 damage, what's the table say for average damage at this level, the low number, 15, this guy hits for only 9,5 average, that is just fine. If you give him power attack it brings his damage to 15,5 which is perfect, and dont forget his spell selection, he can cast fireballs as a 5th level wizard. Finally, Ac and spell saves, caus this guy is a caster he needs a decent int score, but as a beefy caster the save DC should be higher then low, but lower then high, the table wants a save DC of 15 against his most dangerous spells, so lets aim for 14, with a mere intelligence of 13 the Minotaur is perfectly able to cast his 3rd level spells with a save DC of 14. The AC should aim for a similarly low number, standard CR 5 AC is 18, so lets give him a dex of 12, to even out his size penalty, and a nat armor bonus of +5 (incidently the Nat armor bonus normal Minotaurs get), and a lootable ring of protection, total AC 16. Whatever numbers remain you can cherry-pick, charisma, wisdom and other statistics matter less than the above.
Finally the cleric. After seing the wizard above you probably understand the gist of it, as a Cr 8 enemy it ould be appropriate for him to be able to cast level 3 spells, what he lacks in spellcasting ability for his Cr he will be able to make up for in super-minotaur combat strength.
Rebuilding creatures in this way is time consuming, but the result is more reliable encounter material then generating a "race profile" for every enemy type.
Even if you didnt read the wall of text, just remember, the table on page 291 of the bestiary trumps all other rules whatever their source. Refer to it zealously. Once you learn to use the table you becoem able to twist it, you can generate tanks by increasing HP and AC whilst reducing damage and attack bonus, or vice versa.
... I am not quite sure what I just read. It seems to be... disconnected? ... from the stated issue. Language barrier (german here)?
I demonstrated that I can give the Minotaur weaker Attribute score than Human (0 vs. +2) and still reach the score showcased in the Bestiary.
I had already linked to the level-offset rule and abandoned it in favour of the APL-offset rule introduced by Race Builder.
Balance between players cannot be a goal. Balance a Kobold and a Hobgoblin, when both are Barbarians.
And why should it be a goal? The guy who cannot wield a stick is not exactly a match to the berserker of death... in a fight. Luckily, this is not a game about fights but about adventure; the non-stick guy will have other strengths.
Surely it would only be fair to notify players beforehand if a campaign focuses on fights to the marginalisation of all else.
Adding class levels to something already beyond level 0 is akin to multiclassing, is it not? The rules presented in the Beastiary for Monster PCs are pretty similar to AD&D multiclassing progression.
Of course there will be issues when one character has implicit levels vs. another. First order of the day must thence be to strip away the HD and assorted boni to normalise the stats!
... Why the need to match PC and NPC?
Because they are supposed to be the same species. There should not be inherently better or worse races to the same species; unless constructed, of course. If I want inferior Minitaurs aside my proper Minotaurs, then I will create inferior Minitaurs! They should not implicitely exist. PCs should not implicitely belong to a superior or inferior "caste", such things shall be part of the setting and part of the story and thence explicitely described or not existent in the first place.
There are furthermore well-defined interfaces to regulate PC vs. NPC power level. Fantasy setting and Class, most notably.
Of course, some guesswork and by-ear-playing will have its entrance, as soon as the campaign starts. If the players optimise their roles, all the CRs need to go up, if they did especially bad, some may have to go down; if something does not play out as planned, encounters may have to be improvised or removed on the fly.
- But this here is not in a campaign, it is beforehand. To provide a solid fundament, the same rules must apply to all and these rules shall be consistent.
--
Anyway, I appreciate the thoughts on that spell immunity.
Considering the Duergar and Elven Immunities, I think I will bundle +4 Survival and Maze immunity together for 3 RP. Survival is one of the more universally useful skills, but not quite Perception and not quite Stealth.
This leaves me with a functional Minotaur for 26 RP. I still think that is a bit high, but then I managed to build a godlike Kobold Fighter-Rogue-Ranger, so mayhap it will end up being warranted.
I am a bit disappointed that no one seems to care about the RP costs I challenged (Large, Xenophobic) and that the distinction between flat-footed and flanked similarly has not attracted interest; but as I am apparently barely capable to bring my point across, I probably ought to blame myself for that.
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