Forgot to mention: Dominate spells take 1 round to cast. I only realizd that recently. One full round to interrupt or counter.
Granted, this is only a unquickened dominate spell. I don't recall how a vampire's ability works, and there's still all the other Will spells. Something to keep in mind, though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
When dominated your previous allies are your enemies.
No, they're the enemies of the guy who is trying to work you like a puppet. Dominate doesn't control your thoughts, only your actions.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
how can you guys not be good at everything all the time
Confusion or even dominated are way easier to fix than someone actually getting killed outright.
The negative results of a flubbed will save can normally be fixed mid-combat by a spell. Feeblemind being thrown at a pre-Heal spell party is one of the few exceptions I can think of.
(And this ignores how something as simple as protection against evil trivializes so many things that Paizo had to do a FAQ to explain what it DOESN'T trivialize.)
The negative results of a flubbed fort save usually don't get fixed until the fight is over, at best.
Hell, to use Undone's example - unless someone kept a scroll handy, that failed fort save versus a blind is either getting fixed at least 15 minutes after the fight's over, or it's getting fixed the next day. (Barring the party actually expecting blinding attacks and prepping for it, of course.)
Anyways, a lot of will save effects can be stopped by preventive measures. If your class has a bad will save, then demonstrate why the party really, really doesn't want you getting compromised and if they're prudent they'll take care of the rest =P
Edit: Undone, you might want to reread how dominate works. Dominate doesn't change your perception of the world; it gives you a voice in your head that you have incredible difficulty saying "no" to. A dominated person still knows perfectly damn well who their friends actually are.
|
If you are dead then you are contributing nothing to the battle.This is simply not true at least not once you've reached higher levels.
At high levels death is literally less of a problem than a dominated party member.
Reflex saves do damage. It costs 750g for 50d8+50 healing.
Fort saves have minor easily removed effects "Oh permablind, guess I'll fill in the slot I left open and cast remove blindness" negative levels (annoying but not terrible in this system) and death effects. While bad to fail it's definitely better to be dead than confused or dominated at higher levels.
I understand this point of view. Again, players hate losing control of their characters, I get that. I don't like it either. But I'm still comfortable in my preference of having higher fort and reflex saves. I'd rather be there than dead.
I do think saying reflex saves just do damage is kinda silly. Like damage doesn't matter? It can't kill you? Yeah, it's no different than being hit on the head by a giant, both can kill you. By far most deaths I see in games are from damage, not from save or die effects. Isn't damage a dangerous and preferable avoided thing?
Domination, yeah it sucks but protection from evil solves this most of the time. If you know you're going to fight vampires, throw up a communal and you're all immune. Or dispel magic, or break enchantment, or kill the bad guy that cast the spell, or etc. If you are so tweaked out that you can kill your friends in one round, then you can tweak out your will save to be immune to this too. If you aren't then don't worry about it.
Confusion. Ok, once in a while this actually makes things go horribly wrong for the PCs. But usually it does very little. Web (a reflex save) or black tentacles (a cmb check) usually screws PCs up more than this (will save) spell. Either the spell does nothing, you lose your turn, you take a small amount of damage, or you attack the nearest thing, which if you're the fighter up in the bad guys' grill, is probably the bad guy and what you would have done anyway so it effectively did nothing.
In the end, I think this is perfectly fine being a personal choice of what you want your characters strengths and weaknesses to be. If will save effects really bother you, then boost your will save. If they don't, then don't worry about it. Sometimes I have fun playing the man of steel, unwavering and unbreakable. Sometimes I have fun playing the gullible kid or whatever. Neither way makes the game unplayable.
Confusion. Ok, once in a while this actually makes things go horribly wrong for the PCs. But usually it does very little.
That's because usually most of the party have good Will saves. If you have a party of four and three of them fail their save against Confusion in the first round, there's a good chance one of them will attack another. And if you get attacked while confused, you have to fight back against the attacker instead of rolling at random. So you could easily wind up with two members of the party trying to kill one another while whoever is left has to try to win the encounter solo.
|
|
Confusion. Ok, once in a while this actually makes things go horribly wrong for the PCs. But usually it does very little.That's because usually most of the party have good Will saves. If you have a party of four and three of them fail their save against Confusion in the first round, there's a good chance one of them will attack another. And if you get attacked while confused, you have to fight back against the attacker instead of rolling at random. So you could easily wind up with two members of the party trying to kill one another while whoever is left has to try to win the encounter solo.
Yeah, as I said, it is occasionally really bad. That is an example of it being bad. Still is an effect that is easily removed (a 2nd level spell (calm emotions) automatically removes it, while confusion is a 4th level spell). Or mitigated (just don't be closer to them than the enemy is). And to be stuck attacking each other both PCs need to fail their saves and then get unlucky on the 25% chance. So IMO, not as bad as being unable to do anything whilst black tentacles crush you to death (which is also a 4th level spell, and doesn't have a lower level spell that can automatically remove it).
Still is an effect that is easily removed (a 2nd level spell (calm emotions) automatically removes it, while confusion is a 4th level spell).
Calm Emotions is Will Negates - I don't think a Confused PC can choose to fail the save? So it will probably fail if cast from a scroll (unless you have taken the 'bad Will save' idea all the way), and isn't a spell most groups have memorized permanently, since it has a side effect of stopping your allies from attacking your enemies.
And to be stuck attacking each other both PCs need to fail their saves and then get unlucky on the 25% chance.
Only one of them needs to get unlucky on the 25% chance (which works out as a 44% chance every round) for them to start fighting.
Spells can be a great way to counter failed Will saves. Some folks might not like focusing their spell list around my PC's low Will save though. Anyhow, I don't think that Calm Emotions will help much in a fight since the rules say:
"Any aggressive action against or damage dealt to a calmed creature immediately breaks the spell on all calmed creatures."
It sounds like if a monster attacks your Calmed buddy the spell is broken even if the attack misses. Dispel Magic is probably more effective, but it is still a 50/50 shot much of the time, and you probably won't have enough of it to deal with At Will powers (though in a single monster fight just countering the bad guy's power for a few rounds could be good enough)
In one campaign I'm in a Fighter in a 3 person party with a Ninja. We both dumped Wis. Sometimes the party seems more like the 3 Stooges than a group of skilled adventurers. I'm guessing that the DM could end the campaign with a TPK whenever he wants. I guess in some ways that's always the case though. On some level I guess the low Will saves are his problem as much as ours. The Witch tries to stock some counters to get us back under control or at least prevent us from killing her, but her Charisma is low enough we probably won't listen to her while Charmed.
How do you play bad will save characters?
"Ooh! Shiny!"
"Well, I think we should - Squirrel!"
(Actually had a work meeting today where the lead consultant in the meeting, deep in discussion of a technical point, stopped mid-sentence to exclaim "Cookies!" as he caught the smell of the fresh-baked chocolate chip cookies catering had delivered a few minutes previously. Everyone laughed.)
I play in a campaigns where the big six are not standard. Almost no one has a Cloak of Resistance. The GM generally focuses on Pathfinder story arcs like Rise of the Runelords & Carrion Crown. We haven't hit a lot of encounters with Will SoS effects - but when we do, some of the characters are out of the fight for a while. He doesn't go for cutthroat TPK, but fights can get tight when it happens.
Overall, it comes down to GM focus. If your GM is going to pull out the occasional SoS Will-focused effect, then it's not out of line to ask/expect thate they make it possible for you & the party to shore up your saves in that area.
The difference between a high-save and a low-save character is not all it's cracked up to be. If you're playing a class with a slow Will save progression, it makes sense to pick up Iron Will, the Indomitable Faith trait, and don't dump Wisdom. That brings you within one point of a fast-save class. As a note, I don't pretty much ever see people recommend Will save boosting feats and traits to those classes -- leastwise the Wizard and Magus guides I've read don't even mention them, and the Sorcerer guide mentions picking up Iron Will / Improved, but specifically if you dumped Wisdom.
Now Divine casters (and of course Paladins) can get some pretty crazy Will saves. But somehow, people survive as other classes all the time with saves that are only a tiny bit better than what a smart 'low will save' character would have ... I think there's a bit of confirmation bias at work here.
This doesn't even get into things like Clear Spindle Ioun Stone / Wayfinder, Seducer's Bane, Cap of the Free Thinker, which ... again, other classes can use them, but let's be honest, they don't necessarily do it, or even feel they have to.
And if you're playing in a world where the DM arbitrarily bumps all of his saves to challenge the Paladin ... play a Divine caster, get some Cha, and pick up Divine Protection.
I think your GMs are being really harsh if making you attack your friends doesn't count as 'against your nature.' I have evil characters that wouldn't do that, let alone neutral ones.
Many GM's will use dominate and tell you to leave the room, just to avoid that second save. As for the GM being harsh it really depends on how you RP your character. If you are not nice to your party members, and don't like them killing them might not be something you would be against.
If you want people to kill each other use confusion. I have seen it use to decimate NPC enemies, and it almost can do the same thing if the 2 PC's fail it with not dispel magic or other way to end it. At that point you are fighting half of the party + the bad guys.
edit: I don't think they are guaranteed wins, but it only takes one failing of this to do the party in.
meant how do you tolerate doing nothing 50% of the time?
Are you aware that you're just making up numbers to support your claim?
|
|
Still is an effect that is easily removed (a 2nd level spell (calm emotions) automatically removes it, while confusion is a 4th level spell).Calm Emotions is Will Negates - I don't think a Confused PC can choose to fail the save? So it will probably fail if cast from a scroll (unless you have taken the 'bad Will save' idea all the way), and isn't a spell most groups have memorized permanently, since it has a side effect of stopping your allies from attacking your enemies.
I can see that interpretation. I read it differently. The first paragraph talks about how the targets cant take violent actions, that part is negated by a successful save. The second paragraph says the spell also "automatically" suppresses and removes a list of effects. Saying automatic reads to me as happening regardless of the save.
Combat maneuvers and Improved Unarmed Strike can allow you to fight against your friends without hurting them so badly. When my Fighter with Improved Trip and a flail failed a Will save and had to protect an imp he chose to do it by tripping the other PCs and disarming them. This was particularly effective since he took away the party's only silver weapon. Our good aligned Ninja didn't have any good non-lethal options, so he actually started making lethal attacks against me in return. That almost ended poorly for him and the party.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
Breathe of life is a nice sounding spell which is too often situationally useless. A cleric who for some reason has memorized the spell, or who has the quick draw feat and the scroll in a wrist sheath or who happens to be standing within a 5' step of the dead person can use the spell, otherwise it takes move action draw a scroll and a move action to get to where the cleric can touch the dead person and a standard action to cast the spell. When I first saw the spell I was excited, after a few campaigns of buying a scroll of breath of life as soon as possible and only once being where it could be used, the spell is relegated to the pile of good ideas which don't work out. Since there is no shortage of good 5th level cleric spells, and Breathe of Life is not a cure spell, the only times Breathe of Life is likely going to see action is when the party is packed into a close group which is often a very poor idea.If you are dead then you are contributing nothing to the battle.This is simply not true at least not once you've reached higher levels.
At high levels death is literally less of a problem than a dominated party member.
Reflex saves do damage. It costs 750g for 50d8+50 healing.
Fort saves have minor easily removed effects "Oh permablind, guess I'll fill in the slot I left open and cast remove blindness" negative levels (annoying but not terrible in this system) and death effects. While bad to fail it's definitely better to be dead than confused or dominated at higher levels.
Breath of life also doesn't work against death effects, so if you fall to most SoD spells it does nothing to help you, let alone get you back the next round. At least most Will save effects can be cleared by 1st-3rd level spells, some Fort effects need a 7th level spell with a 10k gp component and a long cast time.
People are grossly misunderstanding Dominate Person / Dominate Monster.
If you are dead then you are contributing nothing to the battle.This is simply not true at least not once you've reached higher levels.
At high levels death is literally less of a problem than a dominated party member.
Reflex saves do damage. It costs 750g for 50d8+50 healing.
Fort saves have minor easily removed effects "Oh permablind, guess I'll fill in the slot I left open and cast remove blindness" negative levels (annoying but not terrible in this system) and death effects. While bad to fail it's definitely better to be dead than confused or dominated at higher levels.
Well not until the next 'specified time of day'.
Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, she must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, she must wait until the next day to prepare spells
Ok so here are some numbers for a particularly popular adventure (No spoiling) and here are the numbers on a brawler a friend of mine wanted to play. At level 16 he'll have +5 Base will save, +5 cloak, he's taking iron will as well and will have a +4 wisdom mod after item so he's at +14 ish, 15 if he takes the trait. I pointed out that the save DC for merely the fright presence of the dragon requires he roll very high. Then I pointed out the bosses are even higher in terms of DC's.
First, your numbers are wrong. That should be a 17 Will save, not a 15. If you have Cap of the Free Thinker, this is probably enough.
Second, to use your example of Frightful Presence (from an Ancient Red Dragon, for fairness -- these #s include Cap of the Free Thinker, because why *wouldn't* you use that?):
(1) Completely unbuffed: 25% chance to be Shaken.
(2) With Heroism (from a potion, spell, or aura): 16% chance to be Shaken.
(3) With Greater Heroism / Paladin Aura or a few other things to add +4: 9% chance to be Shaken.
If he was a Fighter [The Worst Class(TM)], these #s go to: (1) 9%, (2) 4%, (3) 1%.
For your example of a generic DC25 Will save, assuming it's Mind Affecting -- which most of the scary ones that do things like make you kill your party are -- your friend's numbers come to:
(1) 16% - unbuffed
(2) 9% - with a +2 buff
(3) 4% - with a +4 buff
Doesn't sound so unmanageable to me.
I'm not sure what bosses or what spells have significantly higher DCs, because I'm not sure what AP you're referencing. For my edification, can you tell me the spell and the DC (I don't really care about the encounter)?
People are grossly misunderstanding Dominate Person / Dominate Monster.
The reason fighters take iron will and a trait is so that they can make those additional will save +4 rolls.
If you don't make that investment, not only do you fail the intial save, you'll fail every save afterwards until the party is dead.
A cloak of resistance is a mandatory item.
|
|
People are grossly misunderstanding Dominate Person / Dominate Monster.The reason fighters take iron will and a trait is so that they can make those additional will save +4 rolls.
If you don't make that investment, not only do you fail the intial save, you'll fail every save afterwards until the party is dead.
A cloak of resistance is a mandatory item.
And if you can afford the +5 cloak, you can certainly afford the cracked green ioun stone to give a +1 competence bonus
If you are dead then you are contributing nothing to the battle.This is simply not true at least not once you've reached higher levels.
At high levels death is literally less of a problem than a dominated party member.
Reflex saves do damage. It costs 750g for 50d8+50 healing.
Fort saves have minor easily removed effects "Oh permablind, guess I'll fill in the slot I left open and cast remove blindness" negative levels (annoying but not terrible in this system) and death effects. While bad to fail it's definitely better to be dead than confused or dominated at higher levels.
Well not until the next 'specified time of day'.
Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, but unlike a wizard, does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular time of day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, she must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, she must wait until the next day to prepare spells
The next paragraph, Spell Selection and Preparation, includes this gem: "When preparing spells for the day, a divine spellcaster can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots." If you have a cleric, ALWAYS leave a few slots open to deal with this sort of thing.
People are grossly misunderstanding Dominate Person / Dominate Monster.The reason fighters take iron will and a trait is so that they can make those additional will save +4 rolls.
If you don't make that investment, not only do you fail the intial save, you'll fail every save afterwards until the party is dead.
A cloak of resistance is a mandatory item.
While I agree about the cloak of resistance (one of the best items in the game, frankly), I don't understand how one character in a party is so powerful that he's able to simply kill everyone else while they are incapable of incapacitating him. In the vast majority of cases, even if your group of PCs are all CE and would happily slip a knife in their buddy's back, it's "obviously self destructive" for a single PC to launch an attack against three or four murder-hobos who each would have at least a 50/50 chance of killing him one-on-one.
Weird, must of missed that. So there is absolutely no point for the paragraph I quoted - since surely "some" could be "all" - thus making the point of having a specific time for prayer pointless, except for flavour.
|
|
Weird, must of missed that. So there is absolutely no point for the paragraph I quoted - since surely "some" could be "all" - thus making the point of having a specific time for prayer pointless, except for flavour.
Just remember that it still can take quite a bit of time, if you're praying for the full complement of spells it's 1 hour. If you're praying for just 1 to fill a single slot it's still 15 minutes; that can be an eternity in a dungeon crawl.
Weird, must of missed that. So there is absolutely no point for the paragraph I quoted - since surely "some" could be "all" - thus making the point of having a specific time for prayer pointless, except for flavour.
There is a point - that's when you get back the slots that you already filled in that day and can put in new spells. Casting a spell doesn't give you an open slot for the purpose of the second paragraph.
While I agree about the cloak of resistance (one of the best items in the game, frankly), I don't understand how one character in a party is so powerful that he's able to simply kill everyone else while they are incapable of incapacitating him. In the vast majority of cases, even if your group of PCs are all CE and would happily slip a knife in their buddy's back, it's "obviously self destructive" for a single PC to launch an attack against three or four murder-hobos who each would have at least a 50/50 chance of killing him one-on-one.People are grossly misunderstanding Dominate Person / Dominate Monster.The reason fighters take iron will and a trait is so that they can make those additional will save +4 rolls.
If you don't make that investment, not only do you fail the intial save, you'll fail every save afterwards until the party is dead.
A cloak of resistance is a mandatory item.
Obviously self destructive is stabbing yourself.
A commoner could fight 100 level 20 fighters and win if the commoner rolled all 20s and the fighters rolled all 1s.
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
Breath of life also doesn't work against death effects, so if you fall to most SoD spells it does nothing to help you, let alone get you back the next round. At least most Will save effects can be cleared by 1st-3rd level spells, some Fort effects need a 7th level spell with a 10k gp component and a long cast time.In this edition non disintegrate death spells mostly do damage. If you have enough HP or a powerful BoL then you probably can bring them back.
Enough HP, sure. If they were dropped below negative Con by the damage from something like finger of death or slay living then BoL doesn't help.
You're right but to be fair he's spent like 60k on his saves already before cap of the free thinker.
This isn't even mentioning that mid levels you can't afford it. So basically the answer is you need to invest 2 feats a spell and 70k+ if you play a bad will save character.
Should be 41k (25k cloak + 16k headband), which is a little more than 10% of his WBL. At mid-levels, the gap between high and low save isn't as large, so you don't need to invest as much gold in items. You need to invest one feat, and one trait, and (at level 10) you'll be within 1 point of a 'high will save' class. At that point, you're probably fine with just a +3 cloak at level 10 (which is 9k), or around 15% of WBL. And everyone spends their money on something.
While I agree about the cloak of resistance (one of the best items in the game, frankly), I don't understand how one character in a party is so powerful that he's able to simply kill everyone else while they are incapable of incapacitating him. In the vast majority of cases, even if your group of PCs are all CE and would happily slip a knife in their buddy's back, it's "obviously self destructive" for a single PC to launch an attack against three or four murder-hobos who each would have at least a 50/50 chance of killing him one-on-one.People are grossly misunderstanding Dominate Person / Dominate Monster.The reason fighters take iron will and a trait is so that they can make those additional will save +4 rolls.
If you don't make that investment, not only do you fail the intial save, you'll fail every save afterwards until the party is dead.
A cloak of resistance is a mandatory item.
Well if everyone is at full health more than likely the party can take him, but if you have someone built for damage, and the terrain is in favor of the dominated character then he can take out 2 other characters in two rounds, and if the remaining party member is not a combat class or primarily a combat build, then he goes down next.
It almost happened to me, but I was able to get away due to being faster than my confused party member.
You are also assuming the chances are 50/50. In combat that is normally not the case in actual parties since not all players are equal with regard to system mastery.
I don't understand how one character in a party is so powerful that he's able to simply kill everyone else while they are incapable of incapacitating him.
He doesn't have to be able to kill everyone else single-handed to threaten a TPK. You're fighting a vampire, four on one. Then the vampire dominates the fighter and the fighter incapacitates the cleric in a single full-round attack. Now it's two against two and the group has a serious chance of losing.
In the vast majority of cases, even if your group of PCs are all CE and would happily slip a knife in their buddy's back, it's "obviously self destructive" for a single PC to launch an attack against three or four murder-hobos who each would have at least a 50/50 chance of killing him one-on-one.
But if the group aren't all CE, then they're not likely to murder their dominated ally, so it's not self-destructive in those cases.
I just play Dwarves. Built in +2 WIS, Built in +2 saves against spells and SLAs, optional steel soul feat to boost it to +4 to all spell saves, glory of old trait to give it another boost, etc. You can play a dwarf fighter and not have any bad saves.
It gets even stupider when you're playing a divine caster. Our GM gave up casting spells on our dwarf inquisitor a while back when he rolled a 35 will save VS a DC 15 check.
Wouldn't a Hold Person scroll have a save DC of 13?
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
Enough HP, sure. If they were dropped below negative Con by the damage from something like finger of death or slay living then BoL doesn't help.I believe you but I cannot find the rule which states death effects prevent BoL. Can you point it out to me.
Sure.
This spell cures 5d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +25).Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature. If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount less than its Constitution score, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total. If the creature's hit point total is at a negative amount equal to or greater than its Constitution score, the creature remains dead. Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day.
Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life.
Like cure spells, breath of life deals damage to undead creatures rather than curing them, and cannot bring them back to life.
Emphasis mine.
|
|
Like cure spells, breath of life deals damage to undead creatures rather than curing them, and cannot bring them back to life.Emphasis mine.
raise dead can't even bring someone back if they died to something considered a "death effect" - I don't remember specifically how the rules work, but I would say anything that kills you without doing hit point damage would be a "death effect"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Wouldn't a Hold Person scroll have a save DC of 13?
That's why martial characters have to really focus on keeping their Will save low. Wisdom of seven - or five if you can get a racial penalty - and never get a Cloak of Resistance. That way you can still be failing to resist that Hold Person scroll with a 50% success rate at level 17, thus allowing your allies to protect themselves from the consequences of your bad Will save.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wouldn't a Hold Person scroll have a save DC of 13?That's why martial characters have to really focus on keeping their Will save low. Wisdom of seven - or five if you can get a racial penalty - and never get a Cloak of Resistance. That way you can still be failing to resist that Hold Person scroll with a 50% success rate at level 17, thus allowing your allies to protect themselves from the consequences of your bad Will save.
People are grossly misunderstanding Dominate Person / Dominate Monster.Much like freedom of movement it's a spell which has an immense amount of GM latitude. As such not giving him additional saves is within the GM's perview. I'd give him saves if he was a LG type or had a personality of selflessness or something but pretty much unless I had a good reason to give him a second save he's not going to get one which is completely within your power as a GM. If they haven't demonstrated that it's radically against their nature then they're going to attack them without a second save.
You have an odd idea of alignment if you think that it's well within someone's normal course of behavior to attack and kill a friend of theirs unless they're lawful good..
In the vast majority of cases, even if your group of PCs are all CE and would happily slip a knife in their buddy's back, it's "obviously self destructive" for a single PC to launch an attack against three or four murder-hobos who each would have at least a 50/50 chance of killing him one-on-one.But if the group aren't all CE, then they're not likely to murder their dominated ally, so it's not self-destructive in those cases.
Your argument boils down to this:
It is with any player character's normal behavior to attack and kill an ally and friend who is currently fighting a common enemy.
It is not within any player character's normal behavior to use lethal force to defend himself against a former ally who has unexpectedly attempted to kill him.
If they're all murder hobos who have in their normal course of behavior betray and murder their friends, it is clearly self-destructive to provoke one of your fellow murder hobos into murdering you.
Your argument boils down to this:
It is with any player character's normal behavior to attack and kill an ally and friend who is currently fighting a common enemy.
No, that was someone else's argument. My view is that you should get a second save if forced to attack your trusted friends, but that doing so is not 'obviously self-destructive' in the way that jumping off a cliff is.
If you have +15 and the average monster you face will have a DC 25 or so 50% isn't really making something up. Although technically 45% it's very close to 50% and some will be higher and lower.
In the scenario you desctribe, your numbers are accurate.
But what if the enemy chooses to use an action that does not trigger that kind of Will save? What if it lacks those kind of attacks altogether? What if a PC goes before the enemy and prevents or discourages it from using an action that triggers that kind of Will save? As before, your arguments are making assumptions.
A strong Will save is a smart thing to have - just like other forms of defense. Sometimes I pool more of my character's mechanical resources into a certain area, sometimes less. There are many kinds of characters to play.