Quick Dirty Trick

[Angry Wizard]

Ok, so I just got clarified for my players that Agile Maneuvers is needed to apply Dex to a Dirty Trick, but he said he found a feat called Quick Dirty Trick which would allow him to apply his Dex to a Dirty Trick with the same ruling that allows things like Trip or Disarm to have Dex apply to them without Agile Maneuvers. Is this correct or are we misinterpreting the rulings?

[kinevon]

You are misinterpreting the feat.

Quick Dirty Trick (Combat) wrote:

You can perpetrate a dirty trick and deliver an attack before your opponent is the wiser.

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Dirty Trick, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: On your turn, you can perform a single dirty trick combat maneuver (Advanced Players Guide 320) in place of one of your melee attacks. You must choose the melee attack with the highest base attack bonus to make the dirty trick combat maneuver.
Normal: A dirty trick combat maneuver is a standard action.

All this does is allow you to use a single Dirty Trick maneuver in place of your highest BAB attack, not that you are using a weapon with it, which is situational, or that you apply Dex to it.

If you can use your weapon to deliver the Dirty Trick, then you could use Weapon Finesse, if you have it anhd the weapon is Finesseable, for that specific Dirty Trick attempt. Ex: Using a whip to open a bleeding wound (note: blood dripping, not Bleed effect) in your target's forehead would be a Finesseable Dirty Trick. Using a longsword to deliver the same effect would not be Finesseable.

[Avoron]

Strangely enough, trip, disarm, and sunder have 2 different unique qualities.
1. They can, by default, be performed in place of a melee attack.
2. They do, by default, use a weapon (even if it's just an unarmed strike) to perform the maneuver.

As far as the rules go, Quick Dirty Trick allows allows Dirty Tricks to have quality 1 in limited circumstances, but not quality 2.

That said, if your players can reasonably explain how they are using their weapon to perform the Dirty Trick, then its just up the GM whether it can function in that manner. I don't think it would be unreasonable. I mean, they've already spent a feat on Weapon Finesse, and Dex-based builds usually aren't that powerful anyway.

[Dafydd]

Interesting thought, but no.

Linky

It replaces your first attack with a dirty trick, but does not say you do the trick with a weapon, which is the key to getting dex to a maneuver.

If you want confirmation, look at Two-Weapon Feint. You replace your attack with a bluff check.

[LoneKnave]

I'm pretty sure Dirty tricks can be made with a weapon; the example given was applying a sap to someones gonads for a sicken. I think it was a dev quote by SKR, not sure.

[kinevon]

LoneKnave wrote:

I'm pretty sure Dirty tricks can be made with a weapon; the example given was applying a sap to someones gonads for a sicken. I think it was a dev quote by SKR, not sure.

It is pretty much on a trick-by-trick basis, check with your GM, and make sure you have a description for the GM of what you are doing as the maneuver, and the effect of the maneuver, and the GM will rule if it is done with a weapon or not.

Cutting a small but bloody wound on someone's forehead to blind him would probably use a Slashing weapon. Kicking up sand into his eyes, on the other hand, also to cause the target to be blinded, would not use any weapon.

[LoneKnave]

You know, if I'm trained fighter with like 11 BAB, I'd expect I have a good idea how to apply the condition I want with my weapon.

I mean, the most useful ideas are pretty much all universal (stab in the gonads/eyes/ears/throat) so you are pretty creatively bankrupt if you can't even come up with those, but on the other hand I don't see the point in asking the player how he weaves baskets if he has 11 points in basketweaving either.

Like, wouldn't my highly trained fighter guy know? He had been doing this for like 11 levels. Probably.

[Avoron]

The rules do say that, by default, only trip/disarm/sunder can be used with weapons. Those are the rules that players must follow, unless an exception is made.

And if you want an exception, talk to your GM. The rules say that the GM can decide that any maneuver can be formed with a weapon, even though that isn't the default rule.

Evidently you would allow it; not all GMs would.

[Clockstomper]

My house rules favor maneuvers heavily - but in this case I would say that by the book there's nothing in Dirty Trick that says you can't do it with a weapon, and therefore you could use Weapon Finesse for the check instead of requiring Agile M, depending on what you imagined you were doing.

For instance, the examples in Dirty Trick are: kick sand in face, pull opponents pants down. So let the character imagine something they could do similarly with a finesseable weapon: use a dagger to loosen/cut a the buckle so the target's legs get tangled by a belt - use a rapier to whip someone's cloak up over their helmet, etc.

Dirty Trick is already not affecting the baddies as much as a trip or grapple, so I wouldn't worry about game balance getting out of whack here - and letting your players imagine these kinds of interactions, especially if they include the environment - is a lot of fun.

[TGMaxMaxer]

In the blog on maneuvers, SKR did indeed clarify that some maneuvers other than trip disarm and sunder use the weapon. Those are the only ones in the -CRB- that always get weapon bonuses.

Drag and Reposition are made using the weapon bonuses if the weapon has the trip special quality.

Dirty trick uses the weapon situationally, as ruled by the GM, using a sap to the genitals to give the sickened condition was one of his examples wherein the weapon bonuses counted.