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So we have all these Cavalier Orders, and knightly edicts, some of which appear to have been heavily ordered in organization. Do these orders have chapter houses? Grand masters? Can they recognize one another? Do they have any ranks within? Are they based out of any countries in particular?
The Cavalier class has a massive amount of floating story to it with all of its orders, but nothing is tied down at all. The class sort of seems to just skim along Golarion, and I have not really seen much of any PC's to get a basis off of towards mentality, and bearing.
While Knights of the Inner Sea is very nice in explaining a Cavaliers seeming day to day life, it does not really speak much on Cavaliers in Golarion as a whole.
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Any theories? Anyone seen anything in AP's?
The cavalier is one of my favorite classes and seems to have a lot of work put into its orders. So just curious if its all isolated for a reason or if theres going to be something like a more crunchy knights of the Inner Sea later.
I was expecting an article of some type in Inner Sea Combat, but did not find anything.
I seem to remember it being stated elsewhere that the Cavalier Orders are more philosophies than actual organizations. That said there's nothing topping you from making your own such knightly organizations in whatever form you so desire.
In my custom setting they are organized much like actual knightly orders. With chapter houses, and ranks and such. In Golarion they are, as Eric mentioned, simply the personal outlook of a given cavalier. As written the Orders are just game mechanics and perhaps vague RP guidelines, nothing more.
I think they didn't want players to feel tied down by having to be part of any given organization. PCs are generally thought to be independent operators. Even PC clerics tend not to be tied down to any given church hierarchy.
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(ninjaed by Eric...that's what I get for casting Wall of Text)
I think you may be reading too literally into what the Order represents to the Cavalier, as being an in-world organisation, with a physical base of operations, and then wondering for example, where the headquarters are for The Order of The Star, The Order of the Cockatrice, The Order of the Dragon, etc.
My interpretation (and I'll address why below) is that the Order is a spiritual and philosophical viewpoint, that drives the Cavalier in his overriding goals, and his dealings with others.
Essentially, the Cavalier believes in the principles of 'Starhood', or 'Cockatriciousness' (yes, that's now a word), in the same way someone of another class may declare themselves dedicated to 'mercy' or 'being the alpha of every group'.
These principles neither require them to be signed up with an existing (organisational) order, nor prevent such, though some may well be a poor fit, such as a Cavalier whose class choices insisted on personal aggrandisement would chafe in an order dedicated to humility.
Why do I use that interpretation?
Well,...
1) It allows for the existence of many more background stories, and play styles, such as Knight Errants, Questing Knights, Penitent Knights, and others who choose to take a solitary path.
2) It allows for settings in which entry into a Knightly Order is a title that is earned or bestowed for deeds done, in which case it makes more sense that it happen to the PC at a level above 1st.
3) How about PCs who are Cavalier in class, have the abilities, but find themselves barred from membership from political orders of knighthood, due to some stigma (a half-orc asking for membership in Lastwall would probably face suspicion), or outdated prejudice ("This is a man's army, we have no need for girls!" - note this could be flipped around; "I WILL show them I'm pure! I WILL be the first MAN to ride a unicorn, and I'll do it with or without their help!").
4) It also allows for Cavalier PCs to take explicitly fitting prestige classes, which imply specific in-world organisations, without being unjustly penalised as if they had broken their oaths.
Reasons 2 and 4 are the justifications I used, in my Hellrider Prestige Class, in Wayfinder 7. This was a PrC explicitly designed to allow membership of the various Hellknight Orders (all of whom canonically recruit experienced candidates), whilst still allowing progression of existing Cavalier-specific class abilities, which would normally have stagnated in the existing Hellknight prestige class.
The class description explains that the Hellrider continues to be able to use the abilities they had before entry, from their 'philosophical Order', while gaining all future abilities from the physical, political, Order, whose impregnable citadel they now called home.
In other words, I see no contradiction, in a Cavalier/Hellrider being of both the Order of the Hammer, and the Order of the Nail.
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I see this now. The Orders make a little more sense. I have been playing cavaliers since the release of the APG and it has always bugged me as it seemed Cavaliers just floated on their own cloud over the rest of Golarion lore. I can say I am disappointed by this outlook of how Cavalier Orders work within the world, it does make sense. My wife and I being EXTREMELY steeped in Golarion and Pathfinder lore consider it major heresy to change how it is all put together so I highly doubt the idea of making the Orders physical entities within the world will ever come up with us.
It seemed with such strongly made edicts, and beliefs, it made it seem the Orders were more physical.
As a counterpoint, however, note the heraldic symbol on Alain's tabard, which could be seen as indicative of something more than an ideology.
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(ninjaed by Eric...that's what I get for casting Wall of Text)
I think you may be reading too literally into what the Order represents to the Cavalier, as being an in-world organisation, with a physical base of operations, and then wondering for example, where the headquarters are for The Order of The Star, The Order of the Cockatrice, The Order of the Dragon, etc.
My interpretation (and I'll address why below) is that the Order is a spiritual and philosophical viewpoint, that drives the Cavalier in his overriding goals, and his dealings with others.
Essentially, the Cavalier believes in the principles of 'Starhood', or 'Cockatriciousness' (yes, that's now a word), in the same way someone of another class may declare themselves dedicated to 'mercy' or 'being the alpha of every group'.
These principles neither require them to be signed up with an existing (organisational) order, nor prevent such, though some may well be a poor fit, such as a Cavalier whose class choices insisted on personal aggrandisement would chafe in an order dedicated to humility.Why do I use that interpretation?
Well,...1) It allows for the existence of many more background stories, and play styles, such as Knight Errants, Questing Knights, Penitent Knights, and others who choose to take a solitary path.
2) It allows for settings in which entry into a Knightly Order is a title that is earned or bestowed for deeds done, in which case it makes more sense that it happen to the PC at a level above 1st.
3) How about PCs who are Cavalier in class, have the abilities, but find themselves barred from membership from political orders of knighthood, due to some stigma (a half-orc asking for membership in Lastwall would probably face suspicion), or outdated prejudice ("This is a man's army, we have no need for girls!" - note this could be flipped around; "I WILL show them I'm pure! I WILL be the first MAN to ride a unicorn, and I'll do it with or without their help!").
4) It also allows for Cavalier PCs to take...
You did the Hellrider PrC?? I love that one. Even if every time I look at it I think 'Order of the Nail' -- they seem a natural for Hellknights devoted to fighting bandits and marauding monsters.
If they ever do a 'Hellknights of Golarion' book I hope they PrC gets included with it.
You as a PC could always still gather together a bunch of cavaliers of the same order to found an organization. Especially in something like Kingmaker.
The (cavalier) order of vengeance in People of the River is tied to/inspired by the (secret society) Order of Vengeance in Gralton.
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You as a PC could always still gather together a bunch of cavaliers of the same order to found an organization. Especially in something like Kingmaker.
They don't necessarily need to have chosen the same Order (class abilities), to be members of the same order, if that makes sense.
It may sound like heresy, but if you look at The Knights of The Round Table, they were a melting pot of social classes and ethnicities, who run the whole spectrum of personality types, from those who were vain and quick to seek satisfaction for any slight to their honour, to the chaste, humble and self-effacing Galahad.
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I aked the same question some time ago, and got basically the same answer.
However, Mark Moreland's answer is enlightening... I always assumed the lack of detail revolving around the day-to-day administration of cavalier orders in APG was laziness or sloppiness on the part of writers or editors.. Never occurred to me the APG info was deliberately meant to be setting neutral.
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You did the Hellrider PrC?? I love that one. Even if every time I look at it I think 'Order of the Nail' -- they seem a natural for Hellknights devoted to fighting bandits and marauding monsters.
If they ever do a 'Hellknights of Golarion' book I hope the PrC gets included with it.
At the time, I'd been helping a player look for a PrC for his paladin PC, and it was clear how painfully few classes were out there, which allowed progression of a mount to keep pace with character level, hence I decided to balance the scales.
I'm not sure what specific deal Tim has with Paizo, but if they ever did want to promote it to an official option, I'd be more than willing to let them.
And if you like the art, it's by my longtime friend Chris, who's developing rather a talent.
For how they function it does seem like they should have named them Guiding Principles or Codes or something other then Orders.
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For how they function it does seem like they should have named them Guiding Principles or Codes or something other then Orders.
I was about to say. An Order is a physical thing more than a belief by definition. If they are just some beliefs, they could easily be changed based upon cultural norms and ideals. Nothing is really stopping a Cavalier from falling besides a little device in his head that is telling him, oh you will get weaker if you do the thing.
This would also seem to make the ideas of Squires fairly irrelivent. If there are truly no actual orders then it would stand to reason theres no real manuscripts or anything of the edicts. I feel this is simply another form of alignments than anything.
Perhaps a different name would have done better, the Mantle of the Dragon, or the Way of the Dragon, etc.
This is just my 2 cents. It is entirely probable I am way over thinking this thing.
For how they function it does seem like they should have named them Guiding Principles or Codes or something other then Orders.
I think Orders is fine, I can see where clarification/suggestions that they were "generic" and could/should be renamed/reflavored for specific campaigns wouldn't have hurt.
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For how they function it does seem like they should have named them Guiding Principles or Codes or something other then Orders.
Yes, naming class elements is always a chore, since if you make it flavourful, you risk it being mixed up in normal speech.
Oracle: Hey guys, I just had a revelation.
Other PCs: Yeah? So what's new?
Oracle: Huh?
Other PCS: You've had one since level 1.
Oracle: No, I mean just now. I had a new one.
Other PCs: You just levelled up?
Oracle: 0_o?
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Renaming them Ways (for samurai) or Ideals (for cavaliers) makes much sense and is very fitting imho.
You as a PC could always still gather together a bunch of cavaliers of the same order to found an organization. Especially in something like Kingmaker.
Conveniently enough, I just wrote down the membership and basic tenets of the knightly order I founded in our Kingmaker game. They are the ruling family's personal guard, but can be fielded as a cavalry unit in battle. I am also working up the faction stats for our military academy, which is dedicated to cavalry tactics. Ultimate Campaign has been a huge blessing for this stuff, but I'd like to get the Faction guide too.
Conveniently enough, I just wrote down the membership and basic tenets of the knightly order I founded in our Kingmaker game. They are the ruling family's personal guard, but can be fielded as a cavalry unit in battle. I am also working up the faction stats for our military academy, which is dedicated to cavalry tactics. Ultimate Campaign has been a huge blessing for this stuff, but I'd like to get the Faction guide too.
If I ever get the chance to play Kingmaker I want to found an order of ranger-knights. I was even thinking of working with the GM to make a prestige class out of it. It would probably require a horse animal companion/mount and maybe 4 points in Ride & Survival. Along with a code all about protecting the land and it's people.
Order of the Green from Heroes of the Wild is probably what you're looking for as far as "ranger-knights" (or"nature paladins"), and they'd be a great thematic fit for KM.