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Hi all.
I'm keen to run WotR shortly with my group (4-5 players, highly experienced gamers but usually tend to focus on 'what's right for the story' rather than overtly optimising).
Having read all the horror stories in other threads about Mythic being broken, I'm looking for some ways to de-power it. I'm keen to stick with the Mythic rules if possible as it provides a new slant on Pathfinder we haven't tried yet.
I would also prefer not to have to power up the bad guys in WotR by maximising hit points, changing stat blocks etc.
I've had some initial ideas (admittedly, based solely on what I've read in these forums rather than personal experience) and would appreciate the thoughts of those who've already played/run WotR:
= Mythic power only 3 + 1/tier, not 2/tier
= Regain only 1 pt every day
= PCs can only spend 1 Mythic power per round
= Mythic PCs don't get their specific path ability (Champion's Strike etc.) at all, as they all seem absurdly powerful
= Ban Mythic Power Attack and Mythic Vital Strike (as they seem to be the worst 'mythic feat' offenders)
= Ban Titan's Bane, which also seems to be broken
I'd appreciate any other suggestions...?
IT's suggested by the authors that if you don't want to use the Mythic rules for the PC's, then simply give them +1 to an ability score with every level, OR +2 to the lowest ability score every level, in addition to other raises/4 levels and what's handed out in the AP.
Be aware that spellcasters can abuse Mythic more then any melee, and you've got all melee examples up there. A Mythic archmage can easily set out a DC 50+ "I Win" Stone to Flesh, or the like, or do 1000+ pts of damage with a no miss disintegrate ray.
You might want to simply make up some legendary powers of your own instead of playing with the full rules. Anything that a PC gets that is more then the rote starts playing into the legend.
You can also give them Mythic gear that non-Mythics cannot use properly, which is another form of control.
==Aelryinth
Take out Mythic entirely. Replace with Hero Points that regenerate. And Mythic monsters? Also have Hero Points instead of Mythic.
I know a lot of people have suggested replacing Mythic entirely. I wonder if there's any way it can be saved? I thought the 'only spend 1 mythic power per round' idea might help with that?
Would also appreciate any thoughts people have on how Mythic overpowers mythic spells and if there's any way that can be avoided?
First... if you limit PCs to one mythic per round and only regaining one per day, then you may as well remove mythic. And I'm saying that from the perspective of someone that really dislikes these rules.
Also, with your stated goals of not wanting to redo enemies stat blocks; you should drop mythic from PCs. Many of the NPCs are underpowered and/or built incorrectly.
The sneaky mythic spell offenders are holy smite and order's wrath, two obvious spells for this AP. They each apply a very nasty debuff even when the save is made. As a note, if you limit PCs to one mythic point per round then you will never have augmented spells... which may not be a terrible thing.
As I've suggested many times... I would find a way to limit everything you can by mythic tier/rank and allow more. That way you can use tier as a bigger limit to find the level that works for you.
As I said. Hero Points are a superb replacement. They are in the rules already (Advanced Player's Guide), are in some ways the foundation from which Mythic was built (look at what Hero Points can do and then look at the core aspects of Mythic and notice the similarities), and are not broken (if they were, they'd have been modified significantly by now). They will give you the extra bit of "we're special" to the PCs without making things stupid. And Mythic makes things stupid.
Honestly after giving it much thought changes I'd make:
Max 2 mythic 'abilities' per round unless it's used for a cure/heal/save another type action (not offense - that is you can't 'save another' by trying to kill something - this is pure keep your player from dying type stuff)
Max 2 surge die rolls per round - independent of above uses
Take mythic vital strike out. Possible replacement - allow vital strike on the first hit of a full attack or another attack for a mythic point - would need playtesting.
Take Foe Biter out (legendary item ability)
Make mythic power attack require a point of power and activation each round used.
This stops spontaneous mythic augmented x2 empowered spells (for example) - or pounce + standard + another attack + power attack + foe biter (for example)
Most people agree the insanity doesn't start until tier 3 - it's not because the abilities suddenly become that much better - it's because you have enough abilities and enough power points to start using 'a bunch' together and they all synergise like nothing else seen in the game.
That's a start really - you can experiment with other uses of mythic power - a possible suggestion (to go along with the hero point stuff) is to let the players come up with 'heroic' type actions and if you want to allow it (rule of cool or whatnot) assign a point cost and let them.
Those are suggestions after much thought on the matter.
Oh yeah - watch the bosses - they can be deadly if they get to attack - and if you nerf things they should - so make them play by the same rules mythic wise or you will end up with a TPK.
Also get rid of the Artifacts (except the add-on ones in book 2) they wont need them or miss them:)
Also get rid of the Artifacts (except the add-on ones in book 2) they wont need them or miss them:)
I couldn't disagree with this more. I've played all the way through 2 APs now and I've collected 1 artifact. My character has no real use for it, but it felt really bad ass to get it. To collect an artifact that I could actually use (and the whole group have one or more) would feel epic, just what I want from this AP.
No doubt, totally agree:)
i just wish they didnt hand them out in this AP like candy on halloween is all:)
should've said less artifacts:)
Max 2 surge die rolls per round - independent of above uses
Surging is an immediate action and is thus already limited to once per round.
The biggest thing that I'd remove would be experience: award levels when books say the party should be at that level, not when they have enough experience to level up. A reasonable challenge for my party of 5 level 14 characters with 5 mythic tiers is now roughly CR 25, but if I were to award the actual amount of experience for that encounter they would be level 20 within a few combats. Removing other things would delay the need for this, but I'm able to provide a better (read: more fun) experience for my players by just leveling up with the plot.
The combination of mythic power attack, foebiting, and unstoppable basically mean that a martial character can kill almost anything in a single round, as long as they are willing to spend several uses of mythic and legendary power to do so. This means that the party can trivialize any encounter that they expect will be the last combat before they rest.
Finally, mythic haste and amazing initiative break the action economy to a staggering degree.
Max 2 surge die rolls per round - independent of above usesSurging is an immediate action and is thus already limited to once per round.
That depends - if you have not used your swift an immediate uses your swift - if you have used your swift you can spend an immediate to use your swift for the next round as well - it requires the following setup:
Your turn - use immediate - swift is used - your turn over.
As an immediate action before the round is over - you use your swift for next round.
And that's legal - note the immediate doesn't convert to a swift - it does consume it however - on your turn if you use it then and the swift is available - or outside of your turn using your next swift if not.
That said I agree with your premise - surges are already limited due to action economy - it's the abilities that work outside of the swift action use that become a problem.
No doubt, totally agree:)
i just wish they didnt hand them out in this AP like candy on halloween is all:)
should've said less artifacts:)
Ive read about so many amazing artifacts in Pathfinder only to think, yea, no DM would ever give that to a player. It is a shame because they are so epic and cool but they are a myth for actual game play.
For my characters specifically Ive always imagined how amazing the Thorn Crown of Iomedae and the Shield of the Sun would be together. Very powerful yes, but also amazingly cool!
But again, things like that are a pipe dream in actual game play.
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Mythic Rules are an irrecoverable wreck for two reasons:
(1)They are unbalanced to the point you need to pretty much rewrite them from the ground up to make them work. They are unbalanced both in terms of abuse/breakage possibilities and in terms of unbalancing the offense/defense balance of high-level games, that was not in a good shape to begin with.
(2)They are meaningless. Far too few of the mythic abilities allow you to do something that is at all different from the normal high-level DnD paradigm, as opposed to cranking your initiative bonus, DPR and DCs even further. What I expect from a mythic add-on to something already as extremely high-powered as DnD/PF are things like blowing away cities in a single standard action, raising undead legions and floating castles in an afternoon, terraforming continents and making new races in my downtime, conquering worlds in matter of months, redefining fundamental laws of the multiverse and taking on whole planes as end campaign goals. Certainly not ways to add more numbers to things my characters can do already.
If you want to run this campaign without bothering with the mythic rules, apply Hero Points, replenishing them generously, and up the ability increase to +1 to two different stats every even-numbered level.
Hi again.
Ckorik raises an interesting idea that I thought might deal with the action economy issue, maybe with a tweak or two. What would people think if I did this -
= Get rid of Amazing Initiative so Mythic characters don't get too many extra actions
= Mythic beings can only do two 'Mythic things' a round (i.e. Surge, cast a Mythic spell, use a Mythic feat etc.)
= They can still use a third 'emergency' Mythic thing in a given round (if, for example, they have to boost a saving throw or else die), but it uses up all their remaining Mythic power for the day and they cannot do anything else Mythic until they 'recharge'
I thought this might get rid of the multiplier issue, as multiple Mythic abilities working together seems to be the biggest issue.
Thoughts?