I'm just gonna leave this here.
I'm just gonna leave this here.
If we are gonna bring up third party publishers, Drop Dead Studios is the way to go. Spheres of Power allows you to build an archivist easily out of Wizard, or a few of the base classes presented. Its an alternate magic system that is worth its weight in gold.
1. This is a forum run by a private company they have the right to remove content they don't like the same as I would have the right to remove someone I don't like from my property.
2. Comparing having your posts deleted with getting shot and killed is really messed up and I think you need to step back and think before you say anything that will get you outright banned.
By attacking anyone who challenges your opinion youve shown to have more in common with the shooters than the victim. To play such a card demonstrates how little you understand free speech.
If you are going to tap into non paizo sources, just take a level in Vitalist. Any path. Most broken crap in the game. Your party will never die unless they are OHKOed
Edit* Quote Wrong post. Removed
Let's just bring Nazis, Paladins falling, alignment, and rogues in while we are at it.
On-topic, my feeling is that Clerics do have generally boring class features and domains are a bit lackluster (especially compared to bloodlines or mysteries). That being said, the Cleric is very strong as is with full-access spell lists and 9th-level spells. By the time you get these super high spells, melee support out of a low str cleric is negligible. Removing the melee parts of Cleric and adding more is like removing a toe and adding an arm.
By attacking anyone who challenges your opinion youve shown to have more in common with the shooters than the victim. To play such a card demonstrates how little you understand free speech.
Not in the slightest and lets get a few things clear...
a) I havent "attacked" anyone... defended my perspective yes but attacked ..no. Less of the theatrics please..
b) If someone challenges my views and I feel that they havent presented facts properly and/or lack perspective and/or I think theyre talking nonsense....then I will call them out on it. What did you think I was going to DO....start a thread and then admit that my own perspective was completely wrong the second anyone came in with an opposing view?!?!?!?!
c) I've made suggestions on how Id tweak the class for PF and I absolutely stick by them... as is my right. Again... what did you expect??
d) I am the one who has been censored... I HAVE NOT ONCE requested anyone elses posts be removed - therefore by definition I am in favour of free speech. If I was of a like mind to the shooters that would quite obviously not be the approach.
d) If you do not like my suggestions on the archivist feel FREE not to post... as is your right!
I'm just gonna leave this here.
This is one of the reasons why I have been critical of Paizo regarding the cleric... in one fell swoop a 3PP has produced a D6 1/2 BAB divine caster with a minimum of fuss that adds a lot of variety and potential.
And there are several others out there too..... therefore demand must exist!!... Just goes to show, contrary to opinion on here, I am not the only person ever to have wanted a proper D6 divine class! ;)
Let's just bring Nazis, Paladins falling, alignment, and rogues in while we are at it.
On-topic, my feeling is that Clerics do have generally boring class features and domains are a bit lackluster (especially compared to bloodlines or mysteries). That being said, the Cleric is very strong as is with full-access spell lists and 9th-level spells. By the time you get these super high spells, melee support out of a low str cleric is negligible. Removing the melee parts of Cleric and adding more is like removing a toe and adding an arm.
And this is a chunk of the problem... by the time you get to higher levels all you really have as a cleric is 9th level spells. Yes its full access but by then wizards have tracked down all the spells they need and spontaneous casters have sorted out in advance which spells are worth knowing and which arent. Bare in mind there are lots of cleric spells that most clerics dont ever bother preparing!
Compare this to basically all other 9th level casters and they all have a lot of decent class abilities to go with it..... Oh and just to repeat myself.... THEY ALL HAVE CAPSTONE POWERS!!!!!
Have Paizo ever even attempted to correct that oversight???.... Noooooo
Domains should probably give mini-capstones for Clerics. A bit late to go back and add that for all domains, though.
Personally, capstones are never in play for my groups. I 100% ignore them when building a character.
I'm just gonna leave this here.This is one of the reasons why I have been critical of Paizo regarding the cleric... in one fell swoop a 3PP has produced a D6 1/2 BAB divine caster with a minimum of fuss that adds a lot of variety and potential.
And there are several others out there too..... therefore demand must exist!!
I feel like I said this a dozen times, but...
Look at the scenario the other way around. Why would Paizo waste their time creating content 3pp have already done? Or content from 3.5e splat books when Pathfinder was intentionally designed for compatibility with 3.5e splatbook material? Yes, they remade the core classes, but they needed them as a basis for Pathfinder's core rulebook. Besides, the priest would be too bland to go into a PF book, and they've already made archetypes and classes that could fit the bill.
What do you actually want? It sounds more like you're looking for a very general character concept or rather than mechanics beyond "1/2 BAB, divine 9-level spellcasting"
I feel like I said this a dozen times, but...
Look at the scenario the other way around. Why would Paizo waste their time creating content 3pp have already done? Or content from 3.5e splat books when Pathfinder was intentionally designed for compatibility with 3.5e splatbook material? Yes, they remade the core classes, but they needed them as a basis for Pathfinder's core rulebook. Besides, the priest would be too bland to go into a PF book, and they've already made archetypes and classes that could fit the bill.
What do you actually want? It sounds more like you're looking for a very general character concept or rather than mechanics beyond "1/2 BAB, divine 9-level spellcasting"
Well....
a) First and foremost...Shame on Paizo for not getting their backsides into gear before the 3PP and producing a class in the first place!! The gap in the divine family tree is a fairly easy one to spot...
b) So what.... 3PP have had a go.... there are several Paizo normal/prestige classes that have an obvious commonaility with 3PP stuff.... Paizo are supposed to be the champs - let them show it!
c) There is nothing out there resembling the archivist, the 3PP stuff are tweaks of the existing cleric class (which in itself proves the simplicity of the concept).... an INT based divine caster kills 2 birds with one stone.... it completes the divine caster family tree and also helps to reinvigorate the cleric class by offering players a prepared divine caster that has a fitting range of class options - something sorely lacking at present. For those who still want the more basic cleric option (bland and underpowered it may be) it will still be available.
Simples..!
I dunno. I wouldn't really say the Cleric is under-powered. And oddly, nor would I say it is that MAD, either.
In a more recent campaign I'd been playing in, we only used the 20 point buy, and I had my stats right as I wanted them.
Higher strength, lower dex to wear the better medium armor, middle con to stay alive, lower int (Mighta been 10), good wisdom (But not ridiculous) and about 12 or 13 cha. So I'd say I focused mostly on Str and Wis with a middle-to-low in con and cha? I was able to utilize Channeling quite well by either staying further back and using something - I think it was either a feat or a trait - that let me use two channels to do it as a free action and THEN running up to deal with people, or just channeling when the bonus of healing my entire team vs one of the enemy definitely outweighed the risk.
I think it's just how you handle the class, but I definitely wouldn't say they're under-powered because they get channel and armor as opposed to being able to learn all spells.
My friend played an archivist a couple of times but we never got to a high enough level for him to become the broken type, so I'm not really commenting on the Archivist. Just kind of giving my two cents and defending the Cleric. I liked him, and he was able to stand at the front and fight with the best of them while keeping the party alive and supported.
I at least want to note though that just because a 3PP made something does not mean it was because anyone asked for it. I'm sure a lot of 3PP made things that confused people, weren't that great, or were just never thought of being asked for. So I still dunno. I think it's all either-sided.
But it does beg the question why you don't just ask your DM/GM/Whathaveyou if you can play an Archivist and see how it works. Would be an interesting play-test and show findings on how it still works in PF.
I dunno. I wouldn't really say the Cleric is under-powered. And oddly, nor would I say it is that MAD, either.
I'm only saying in comparison to other 9th level casters...
Heres one chucklesome fact.... play a dwarf Oracle and for the investment of only 2 feats attain +17 bonus to ALL of your saves!!!!
Wait, what? Which feats are those? XD
And I guess in comparison to other 9th level casters, sure, but the Cleric isn't really JUST a 9th level caster. They're a caster-multi-purpose. It is true they aren't great for skills though. That I will never deny.
Oracle is CHR caster..... Divine Protection - adds CHR modifier to ALL SAVES..... so by 20th lvl that equates to +13 add on dwarf only Steel Soul ability and that is a further +4.....
And being that the Oracle is now officially the most SAD class out there... it means you can invest your ability points in all kinds of functional ways, safe in the knowledge that through careful choosing your CHR modifier can be applied to AC, initiative and saves!!
(HUGE SARACSM directed at Paizo).... Ohhhh yes the cleric really isnt underpowered or completely ignored at all!
To be honest, I'd probably get really bored of them if I just focused on one stat and had that one stat affect that many things. Would get boring pretty fast, I'd think. I like spreading focus out, for the most part, but that may just be me.
And you really don't need to keep bashing on Paizo. As it has been said a few times, PF was designed to be easily compatible with 3.5 content. So the Archivist likely doesn't have to be redesigned at all, you can, or should be able to, just play one of those straight up. It likely doesn't need to be redesigned. The 3PP probably just made their idea for funsies and to make something like that, but it doesn't mean it necessarily had to be done to compensate for lack of Archivist or anything.
I'd say just play as the Archivist as is and enjoy how they work, or even add your adjustments as you thought may work and see if it indeed works well. Might be interesting to see how they compare.
Oracle is CHR caster..... Divine Protection - adds CHR modifier to ALL SAVES..... so by 20th lvl that equates to +13 add on dwarf only Steel Soul ability and that is a further +4.....
And being that the Oracle is now officially the most SAD class out there... it means you can invest your ability points in all kinds of functional ways, safe in the knowledge that through careful choosing your CHR modifier can be applied to AC, initiative and saves!!
(HUGE SARACSM directed at Paizo).... Ohhhh yes the cleric really isnt underpowered or completely ignored at all!
No need for the cleric to cry about that. I Think +6 cha is possible on a level 20 cleric without to Big investment yes?(start at 12 book +4 headband +6) cleric already have a good fortitude save and with High Wisdom Will save will be higher. Only reflex save is not as good.
And your dwarf wont have cha 36 by level 20 Will he?
5) Appalling archetype options... IMO there isnt one that is worth sniffing at... and many are truly horrendous
I could go on.....
While I agree that the Archivist is definitely more of what I want from the basic divine caster than the cleric, I am going to have to disagree with you about the Cleric's usefulness. The Cleric is an awesome class mechanically, despite the boredom of its options compared to other casters.
Also, the Evangelist and the Divine Strategist are both amazing archetypes, so I disagree with you there for sure.
Yeah, the evangelist is maybe the best support class in the game by a decent margin.
No need for the cleric to cry about that. I Think +6 cha is possible on a level 20 cleric without to Big investment yes?(start at 12 book +4 headband +6) cleric already have a good fortitude save and with High Wisdom Will save will be higher. Only reflex save is not as good.
And your dwarf wont have cha 36 by level 20 Will he?
Nooooo....
1) In order for a cleric to make the feat worth it, he has to pump valuable ability score points and quite possibly non-WIS item slots into it which by default means that all of his other ability scores will suffer. An oracle on the other hand has to make no such sacrifices because CHR is his one and only stat
2) An oracle has the same high will save as the cleric meaning that with the feat his will save scales in the same way
3) His fort save is lower but that will very quickly not be the case with the feat and in all likelihood his will end up being significantly better.
4) His reflex save will be miles better
5) Being soooooo SAD the oracle is far better placed to use his ability score points effectively and will end up with much, much better saves and abilities.
For example the oracle gets 4 skill points per level - this from a clerics perspective is the equivalent of needing to have an INT of 14 to get the equivalent benefit (2+2)..... thus an investment of 4 points. The oracle can just sit back on INT 10 and laugh all the way to the bank.
Oh and lets not forget CHR to AC and initiative..... oh and the fact that the oracle can cast in armour too...
Dont kid yourself..... its not even close to any kind of parity... objectively and I mean objectively look at all the 9th level casters and see
No need for the cleric to cry about that. I Think +6 cha is possible on a level 20 cleric without to Big investment yes?(start at 12 book +4 headband +6) cleric already have a good fortitude save and with High Wisdom Will save will be higher. Only reflex save is not as good.
And your dwarf wont have cha 36 by level 20 Will he?Nooooo....
1) In order for a cleric to make the feat worth it, he has to pump valuable ability score points and quite possibly non-WIS item slots into it which by default means that all of his other ability scores will suffer. An oracle on the other hand has to make no such sacrifices because CHR is his one and only stat
2) An oracle has the same high will save as the cleric meaning that with the feat his will save scales in the same way
3) His fort save is lower but that will very quickly not be the case with the feat and in all likelihood his will end up being significantly better.
4) His reflex save will be miles better
5) Being soooooo SAD the oracle is far better placed to use his ability score points effectively and will end up with much, much better saves and abilities.
For example the oracle gets 4 skill points per level - this from a clerics perspective is the equivalent of needing to have an INT of 14 to get the equivalent benefit (2+2)..... thus an investment of 4 points. The oracle can just sit back on INT 10 and laugh all the way to the bank.
Oh and lets not forget CHR to AC and initiative..... oh and the fact that the oracle can cast in armour too...
Dont kid yourself..... its not even close to any kind of parity... objectively and I mean objectively look at all the 9th level casters and see
So the oracle killed the cleric?
If the cleric is behind the oracle(and i dont Think it is in the hands of the skilled) it is still in a good place on the power barometer.If you want a caster cleric? Try making a cleric where you dump str and only take a little dex and con. Human with Str 7, dex and con 12 wis 18 and int and cha 14 in a 20 point game. Take Classic caster feats and Think your self as a big arm and a little anvil in terms of group tactics. It Will be great i promise.
Is there any reason why Ecclesitheurge archetype doesn't cover what you want? It's a casting focused cleric, and it's without the ridiculous tricks that an archivist has.
Edit: Also, cleric blows oracle out of the water with preparation casting alone.
It seems a lot of people are mentioning that the Ecclesitheurge is missing an ability or something? From what I've seen of them, they aren't that great. Losing the ability to wear armor to be able to switch some spells with domains doesn't seem worth it, and the ability to bond with a holy symbol also doesn't fill me with enthusiasm. Not completely bashing them, but they seem like a nerf-type.
I feel like the OP obviously doesn't want any constructive discussion on the matter. He believes the cleric is underpowered, despite numerous people providing detailed arguments to the contrary. He dismisses anyone that point out classes/archetypes that already fulfill the role of a utility 9-level divine caster or the flavor of the archivist. When asked to homebrew or outline his vision of what he wants in such a class, he simply ignores it.
All he wants is Paizo to port over a mostly flavorless, overpowered class from a 3.5e splatbook, despite the numerous valid arguments why that makes no sense.
