Skirnir Magus Discussion: a plethora of Skirnir questions


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

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Hi, I’m looking to make a Skirnir Magus (Viking Shield Maiden type character) for an upcoming campaign. I know some of these questions have been discussed elsewhere on the forum, but I’m looking for some fairly definitive answers to the following:

1. The Skirnir Magus begins play with an Arcane Bond shield. Is it safe to assume this will be a masterwork shield, as Arcane Bond items are “always masterwork quality”?

2. Can this be a masterwork spiked shield? Even if I pay the added cost of the shield spikes (+10 gp)? And if not, can shield spikes be added later to my existing shield as a +10gp aftermarket upgrade?

3. If my spiked shield is considered a martial weapon, does that mean I have a masterwork spiked shield that also functions as a masterwork weapon (that is, grants it a +1 Enhancement bonus to hit)?

4. If I have a large spiked shield and give it the +1 bashing quality, does that boost my shield bash damage to 2d6? If I become Enlarged as well, doesn’t that raise my damage to 3d6?

5. Using my Arcane Pool, I can give my shield a weapon enchantment or an armour enchantment, but never both, correct? Or can I? I ask because, “a magus can only enchant one weapon at a time. If he uses this ability again, the first use immediately ends.”.

6. According to the Arcane Bond entry, I would also gain the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat at 5th level, but only with regards to my arcane bonded item. That means I can add both armour and weapon enchantments to my shield, is that correct?

7. Because my shield is worn and not carried, it can’t be disarmed, correct?

8. Let’s suppose that I use the shield as my primary attack and never bother with TWF. However, I might occasionally want to use another weapon (sword, axe) in the other hand. Does that mean this weapon is now considered an off-hand attack and operates at 50% Strength?

9. Lastly, this seems to have been discussed elsewhere, but never fully resolved: Can I Spellstrike with a wand? It doesn’t seem to be restricted, and using wands has the added benefit of not provoking AoO. Plus, bashing with a shield in one hand and a wand in another seems a fairly fun and easy way to go.

I realize there’s going to be some table variation here, but I’m looking for answers that are pretty close to RAW and/or are fairly well supported. My GM is pretty fair-minded and liberal and will probably go along with anything that sounds reasonable.

Thanks in advance for your answers! :)


1. Yes, it should be masterwork.
2. So far as I'm aware you're free to add armor spikes after the fact, so call it ten gold. Your GM might let you build them in though-- hopefully so because of #3.
3. No. You'd have to shell out for masterwork spikes (and later, they have to be enchanted separately)
4. 3D6 looks correct to me, yes.
5. You should be able to do both. The Skirnir's Arcane Pool says: "At 1st level, a skirnir can use his arcane pool to grant an enhancement bonus to a weapon as normal, as well as to his shield, paying the arcane pool cost separately for each."
6. Consult with your GM, as your shield's spikes are not technically your Bonded Item. I would certainly allow it though.
7. So far as I am aware you can freely disarm a shield.
8. Yes, the standard TWF rules apply. This also means you probably want your off-hand weapon to be Light if you plan on using a heavy shield. That said, see the note below.
9. Check with your GM. As you say, there's never been a clear resolution on this matter, so it's whatever he or she rules.

On #8: Frankly, if you don't plan on using TWF, don't take the Skirnir. The penalties it pays are huge, pushing back Spell Combat until level 8, eating Diminished Spellcasting, losing Spell Recall for an absolutely terrible ability, etc. What the Skinir does well, at least come level 8 (which is the only time when they do anything well, if we're being honest, before then they're dramatically sub-par Magi) is engage in Sword-and-board style TWF and cast a spell at the same time.

Instead, see if you can make yourself a 0% ASF shield (Mithril Light Shield will do fine), get yourself proficiency in it, and run your concept with a standard Magus. Or, if you have a GM open to some creative finagling, see if you could do something to merge the Kensai and Skirnir, using the Kensai's 'chosen weapon' as a heavy shield and picking up the Skirnir's Sorcerous Shield ability. While this would make you noticeably tougher than most Magi, it does come at the cost of offensive capabilities so I would think it'd be palatable.

Grand Lodge

I considered that the shield spikes might need to be masterwork in order for the shield to be treated as a masterwork weapon. The reason I asked is because shield spikes are treated as an upgrade to the shield, rather than as a separate weapon:

Quote:

Shield Spikes: These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.

An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

In that regard, I can't see why I wouldn't be able to place weapon enchantments directly onto the shield using the Arcane Bond class feature. It is the shield that is the weapon, not the spikes.

kestral287 wrote:
On #8: Frankly, if you don't plan on using TWF, don't take the Skirnir. The penalties it pays are huge, pushing back Spell Combat until level 8, eating Diminished Spellcasting, losing Spell Recall for an absolutely terrible ability, etc. What the Skinir does well, at least come level 8 (which is the only time when they do anything well, if we're being honest, before then they're dramatically sub-par Magi) is engage in Sword-and-board style TWF and cast a spell at the same time.

I'm actually not too worried about giving up spell combat until 8th. I'm honestly not all that fond of it. TWF is worth considering, and I agree ...only with a light weapon in the offhand. The main appeal of TWF, though, is being able to pick up the ever-so-tasty Shield Slam without a Ranger dip.

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Cestus or spiked gauntlet on your other hand and *bam*, backup weapon problem solved.

As far as which weapon is considered offhand . . . I haven't got a source to cite, but I've always been under the impression that you get to choose whichever weapon you want to be your main hand weapon. In fact, you can have a weapon in each hand and *not* be two-weapon fighting. You simply only attack with one at a time and don't elect to add in the bonus offhand attack that comes from two-weapon fighting. When you get iterative attacks, you can alternate between weapons at no penalty, so long as you're not using the two-weapon fighting offhand attack.


The Shield Spikes quote that you give honestly says, to me, that the two are separate in the same way that Armor Spikes are separate. That said, as with every unusual piece of ruling: have a quick talk with your GM.

On the TWF/Spell Combat part: A question, if I may. Which abilities in particular are you looking to get out of the Skirnir? The point of my previous comment was more to impress that the concept of "A Magus with a shield" is doable with a normal Magus (albeit coming online slightly slower because of the need for Mithril, but that's still doable by level two). The only abilities that the Skirnir has that can't be easily duplicated are the shield-enhancing magic (not a great loss considering the swift action economy behind it; personally I find that I often only have time to devote one swift to buffing. Admittedly your games may be different from mine) and the ability to simultaneously wield a sword, a shield, and a spell. The rest... the moment you put spikes on a shield you can Spellstrike with it, proficiency requires only a feat, Shield Pool is mimicked by Combat Casting but can honestly be ignored outright, Spellshield/Greater Spellshield is largely beaten out by Spell Combat regardless but Spell-Storing is a +1 enhancement away. So the same concept is achievable rather easily unless you are taking advantage of those two particular unique abilities; it would seem then that if you're not using them it would make sense to go with standard Magus.

Stockvillain wrote:

Cestus or spiked gauntlet on your other hand and *bam*, backup weapon problem solved.

As far as which weapon is considered offhand . . . I haven't got a source to cite, but I've always been under the impression that you get to choose whichever weapon you want to be your main hand weapon. In fact, you can have a weapon in each hand and *not* be two-weapon fighting. You simply only attack with one at a time and don't elect to add in the bonus offhand attack that comes from two-weapon fighting. When you get iterative attacks, you can alternate between weapons at no penalty, so long as you're not using the two-weapon fighting offhand attack.

Spiked Gauntlet is probably the best option, honestly, if only because it'd keep your hand free for casting at the lower levels and stays out of the way any time it's not needed.

Your off-hand is whichever hand you designate as such, yes. It'll be revealed by the pattern you make your attacks.

Grand Lodge

Cestus in the offhand definitely works. Nice option! That shouldn't interfere with spellcasting at all.

Grand Lodge

kestral287 wrote:
On the TWF/Spell Combat part: A question, if I may. Which abilities in particular are you looking to get out of the Skirnir? The point of my previous comment was more to impress that the concept of "A Magus with a shield" is doable with a normal Magus (albeit coming online slightly slower because of the need for Mithril, but that's still doable by level two). The only abilities that the Skirnir has that can't be easily duplicated are the shield-enhancing magic (not a great loss considering the swift action economy behind it; personally I find that I often only have time to devote one swift to buffing. Admittedly your games may be different from mine...

The Arcane Bond shield is cool and is a huge draw. I think there's a lot that could be done with that. Magic items aren't all that common in our games, and vendors might never be seen outside of big cities. It could be ages before we run across anything made of mithral.

I like seeing what I can do with a colourful archetype that's generally considered underpowered. That's part of the appeal for me.


kestral287 wrote:
the moment you put spikes on a shield you can Spellstrike with it

The moment you equip a shield you can Spellstrike with it, shields are martial weapons spikes or no.


NikolaiJuno wrote:
kestral287 wrote:
the moment you put spikes on a shield you can Spellstrike with it
The moment you equip a shield you can Spellstrike with it, shields are martial weapons spikes or no.

Re-reading you're right. I was erring on the side of caution, but that was a silly mistake on my part and I should've just done the research.

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