How does colourspray work 3D? Lets say you're flying 15 ft in the air and trying to colourspray things on the ground. Do you end up with a 3x3 colourspray bomb area, or can you select one diagonal plane to fire from? Thanks.
It's a cone. While the rules aren't real clear on 3D effects it is safe to assume, yes, it would result in a 3x3 at the end of the cone.
If you go by the top-down dimensions, each side of the color spray cone is 15 ft.
If you're aiming it from above, downward, you would end up with roughly a 10' radius circle.
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A cone spell has the 3D shape of a right circular cone with height X and a base diameter of X, where X is the listed length. So a 15' cone spell like colorspray has a height of 15' and a diameter of 15'.
So shooting it downwards would affect a 3x3 cross on the ground as you originally asked. because of how the grid system handles non-5' increments.
Not quite, if you go by these diagrams:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates
For example, look at the 30' cone. It looks like you sweep out a 30' distance from your point of origin, so each side is 30', and the max distance down the center is also 30'. It's not a right circular cone, but a conical spherical section like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_sector
So, if you wanted max radius, you should be X/sqrt(2) above the ground, and you would end up with X/sqrt(2) in radius: 10' radius for 15' cone, 20' radius for 30' cone.
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Jeff Merola wrote: A cone spell has the 3D shape of a right circular cone with height X and a base diameter of X, where X is the listed length. So a 15' cone spell like colorspray has a height of 15' and a diameter of 15'.
So shooting it downwards would affect a 3x3 cross on the ground as you originally asked. because of how the grid system handles non-5' increments.
Yes. Because a cone is a cone.
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_Ozy_ wrote: Not quite, if you go by these diagrams:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates
For example, look at the 30' cone. It looks like you sweep out a 30' distance from your point of origin, so each side is 30', and the max distance down the center is also 30'. It's not a right circular cone, but a conical spherical section like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_sector
So, if you wanted max radius, you should be X/sqrt(2) above the ground, and you would end up with X/sqrt(2) in radius: 10' radius for 15' cone, 20' radius for 30' cone.
No. Because a cone is a cone.
I think you all need to get off the grid in situations like this, and just imagine it as it would be in real life. It's a cone, so the space it affected on the ground would be a circular area fifteen feet across.
This is why I am so glad we never use a grid. Rulers measure distance just fine, and AoE templates from games like Warmachine can easily be used to adjudicate scenarios like this one.
_Ozy_ wrote: Not quite, if you go by these diagrams:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates
For example, look at the 30' cone. It looks like you sweep out a 30' distance from your point of origin, so each side is 30', and the max distance down the center is also 30'. It's not a right circular cone, but a conical spherical section like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_sector
So, if you wanted max radius, you should be X/sqrt(2) above the ground, and you would end up with X/sqrt(2) in radius: 10' radius for 15' cone, 20' radius for 30' cone.
You're taking the templates that are a 2D representation of the cone, snapped to a grid with a resolution of 5' squares as saying the cones aren't cones. No.
It depends on how wide of an angle the cone has. Based upon the cutout for a 15 ft cone going N,W,S,or E from the square the caster is in, I would agree that its a 3x3 grid. Because at its widest point it is 15ft (diameter of the cone) so when you spin that around mentally the cone would hit at least a corner of all the squares in a 3x3 section. Going based upon the width of a diagonally sprayed cone, the diameter would be slightly greater, roughly 20ft as Ozy already mentioned.
I'd imagine a 15 ft. radius cone would translate to a 15 ft. radius circle when shot from above.
Toirin wrote: It depends on how wide of an angle the cone has. Based upon the cutout for a 15 ft cone going N,W,S,or E from the square the caster is in, I would agree that its a 3x3 grid. Because at its widest point it is 15ft (diameter of the cone) so when you spin that around mentally the cone would hit at least a corner of all the squares in a 3x3 section. Going based upon the width of a diagonally sprayed cone, the diameter would be slightly greater, roughly 20ft as Ozy already mentioned. "Hitting at least a corner" doesn't matter in Pathfinder (except for reach of exactly 10'). You have to hit every corner to affect a square (except for the aforementioned exception).
_Ozy_ wrote: Not quite, if you go by these diagrams:
Space Reach Threatened Area Templates
For example, look at the 30' cone. It looks like you sweep out a 30' distance from your point of origin, so each side is 30', and the max distance down the center is also 30'. It's not a right circular cone, but a conical spherical section like this:
Spherical Sector
So, if you wanted max radius, you should be X/sqrt(2) above the ground, and you would end up with X/sqrt(2) in radius: 10' radius for 15' cone, 20' radius for 30' cone.
linked for you.
Actually, the diagram for the 30' cone is the same width as the 20' radius. So at 20' up, the 30' code strait down gives 20' radius.
Therefore the 15' cone, at 10' up, gives a 10' radius.
I think the example 15' cone vertical is wrong. I think it should be:
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXOXXXX
My version is also 90 degrees between the sides, and all X's are 15' or less from the O.
/cevah
Cevah wrote:
I think the example 15' cone vertical is wrong. I think it should be:
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXOXXXX
My version is also 90 degrees between the sides, and all X's are 15' or less from the O.
/cevah It's not, actually. Notice that yours has the cone start at 15' across? Cones don't do that.
Jeff Merola wrote: _Ozy_ wrote: Not quite, if you go by these diagrams:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates
For example, look at the 30' cone. It looks like you sweep out a 30' distance from your point of origin, so each side is 30', and the max distance down the center is also 30'. It's not a right circular cone, but a conical spherical section like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_sector
So, if you wanted max radius, you should be X/sqrt(2) above the ground, and you would end up with X/sqrt(2) in radius: 10' radius for 15' cone, 20' radius for 30' cone.
You're taking the templates that are a 2D representation of the cone, snapped to a grid with a resolution of 5' squares as saying the cones aren't cones. No. I didn't say a cone wasn't a cone I said it wasn't a right circular cone, because it isn't. A right circular cone with height of 30' would have sides of 40-45' or so. If you look at the source of the FAQ on that page, SKR discusses the 3d nature of spell areas.
Instead, spell areas extend the same distance from the origin point over the entire included conical area, which results in a conical spherical sector linked above. The rules call this a cone because that's close enough. The templates make this clear. Looks at the thirty foot template, it extends thirty feet from the source in each direction.
Am I The Only One? wrote: Yes. Because a cone is a cone. Jeff Merola wrote: It's not, actually. Notice that yours has the cone start at 15' across? Cones don't do that. The problem is that although Paizo calls it a cone, it isn't actually a right circular cone (what you're thinking of). It's a "quarter-circle in the direction you designate." [in 2D]
PRD wrote: A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won't go around corners.Source The bottom of a right circular cone is flat. The bottom of a the volume traced out when you rotate a quarter circle through 360° (or 180° if you want) is not flat. _Ozy_ has the right of it. You should end up with a portion of a sphere as the 3D shape coming out of this 2D projection.
Jeff Merola wrote: Toirin wrote: It depends on how wide of an angle the cone has. Based upon the cutout for a 15 ft cone going N,W,S,or E from the square the caster is in, I would agree that its a 3x3 grid. Because at its widest point it is 15ft (diameter of the cone) so when you spin that around mentally the cone would hit at least a corner of all the squares in a 3x3 section. Going based upon the width of a diagonally sprayed cone, the diameter would be slightly greater, roughly 20ft as Ozy already mentioned. "Hitting at least a corner" doesn't matter in Pathfinder (except for reach of exactly 10'). You have to hit every corner to affect a square (except for the aforementioned exception). Based on that logic, a 15' cone shot directly downwards from 15' in the air would only effect 1 square. Take a compass, set it to a 7.5' radius and draw a circle on a grid. The only square it hits all 4 corners of is the one dead center.
The slant height of a right circular cone with a height of 30' and a diameter of 30' is roughly 33.5', which would round to 30' according to Pathfinder math and how the grid system works.
Jeff Merola wrote: Cevah wrote:
I think the example 15' cone vertical is wrong. I think it should be:
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXOXXXX
My version is also 90 degrees between the sides, and all X's are 15' or less from the O.
/cevah It's not, actually. Notice that yours has the cone start at 15' across? Cones don't do that. Good point. Revised, using 1/2 30' cone:
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXX
XXXXOXXXX
...That looks funny. Maybe I cannot improve it. :-(
/cevah
With a 90 degree angle at the apex, each side would be sqrt 2 * h, or roughly 1.4 * 30 = 42' probably rounded down to 40'.
Toirin wrote: Jeff Merola wrote: Toirin wrote: It depends on how wide of an angle the cone has. Based upon the cutout for a 15 ft cone going N,W,S,or E from the square the caster is in, I would agree that its a 3x3 grid. Because at its widest point it is 15ft (diameter of the cone) so when you spin that around mentally the cone would hit at least a corner of all the squares in a 3x3 section. Going based upon the width of a diagonally sprayed cone, the diameter would be slightly greater, roughly 20ft as Ozy already mentioned. "Hitting at least a corner" doesn't matter in Pathfinder (except for reach of exactly 10'). You have to hit every corner to affect a square (except for the aforementioned exception). Based on that logic, a 15' cone shot directly downwards from 15' in the air would only effect 1 square. Take a compass, set it to a 7.5' radius and draw a circle on a grid. The only square it hits all 4 corners of is the one dead center. It's a ten foot radius area, and the center needs to be at a grid point, not a square center.
Cheburn wrote: Am I The Only One? wrote: Yes. Because a cone is a cone. Jeff Merola wrote: It's not, actually. Notice that yours has the cone start at 15' across? Cones don't do that. The problem is that although Paizo calls it a cone, it isn't actually a right circular cone (what you're thinking of). It's a "quarter-circle in the direction you designate." [in 2D]
PRD wrote: A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won't go around corners.Source The bottom of a right circular cone is flat. The bottom of a the volume traced out when you rotate a quarter circle through 360° (or 180° if you want) is not flat. _Ozy_ has the right of it. You should end up with a portion of a sphere as the 3D shape coming out of this 2D projection. Those are simplified instructions on how to map out the cone on a 5' grid. Due to how the grid works, you can't actually get a right circular cone to fit properly on it, but it's still the case.
_Ozy_ wrote: With a 90 degree angle at the apex, each side would be sqrt 2 * h, or roughly 1.4 * 30 = 42' probably rounded down to 40'. The slant height of a right circular cone is defined as sqrt(r^2 + h^2) so I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers.
Toirin wrote: Based on that logic, a 15' cone shot directly downwards from 15' in the air would only effect 1 square. Take a compass, set it to a 7.5' radius and draw a circle on a grid. The only square it hits all 4 corners of is the one dead center. Aiming is done along grid corners, not square centers. Which does mean my original statement is wrong, it would technically end up hitting a 2x2 square rather than a 3x3 cross.
Jeff Merola wrote:
_Ozy_ wrote: With a 90 degree angle at the apex, each side would be sqrt 2 * h, or roughly 1.4 * 30 = 42' probably rounded down to 40'. The slant height of a right circular cone is defined as sqrt(r^2 + h^2) so I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers.
? It's trigonometry. The apex angle is 90 degrees (look at the templates) That means the two corner angles for a 2D projection are 45 degrees each. So, you are looking at a right triangle with h = r.
So your formula sqrt(r^2 + h^2) is exactly what I said when h = r.
sqrt(r^2 + h^2) = sqrt(h^2 + h^2) = sqrt(2 * h^2) = h * sqrt(2)
Where did you get r from?
The fact that it's a 30' diameter cone, not a 30' radius cone.
Jeff Merola wrote: The fact that it's a 30' diameter cone, not a 30' radius cone. Where does it say that?
The trig just doesn't work for a 30' diameter cone with a 90 degree apex angle and a 30' slant height.
Jeff Merola wrote: Cheburn wrote: PRD wrote: A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won't go around corners.Source The bottom of a right circular cone is flat. The bottom of a the volume traced out when you rotate a quarter circle through 360° (or 180° if you want) is not flat.
Those are simplified instructions on how to map out the cone on a 5' grid. Due to how the grid works, you can't actually get a right circular cone to fit properly on it, but it's still the case. There's nothing in the PRD statement I quoted about actually choosing which squares to draw the AOE in on a grid.
If you look at the 30' cone grid on the PRD, you'll see they're discretizing a quarter circle, rather than a triangle (which is what you'd get looking at a right circular cone in 2D). You just can't see it in the 15' cone.
Jeff Merola wrote: The fact that it's a 30' diameter cone, not a 30' radius cone. Also, if you look at the PRD 30' cone, you'll see that its largest length across is 40' (coincidentally I'm sure, quote close to the 30*sqrt(2) you'd expect going across with a quarter circle with 30' edges).
You all are right, I miscounted when I looked at the grids. It's not actually quite a cone, which means it's yet another term that D&D decided to redefine.
Cheburn wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote: The fact that it's a 30' diameter cone, not a 30' radius cone. Also, if you look at the PRD 30' cone, you'll see that its largest length across is 40' (coincidentally I'm sure, quote close to the 30*sqrt(2) you'd expect going across with a quarter circle with 30' edges). Yup, they show it correctly. Also the text of spell areas:
Quote: When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. is quite literally the equation for a spherical section in spherical coordinates, r=d
Jeff Merola wrote: You all are right, I miscounted when I looked at the grids. It's not actually quite a cone, which means it's yet another term that D&D decided to redefine. Dude:
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SphericalCone.html
It's just not a right circular cone, and it never claimed to be.
_Ozy_ wrote: Jeff Merola wrote: You all are right, I miscounted when I looked at the grids. It's not actually quite a cone, which means it's yet another term that D&D decided to redefine. Dude:
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/SphericalCone.html
It's just not a right circular cone, and it never claimed to be. In my defense, you called it a "conical spherical section" and the other guy who knew what he was talking about said "although Paizo calls it a cone." To someone who doesn't have a strong math backround, that sounds a lot like saying "It's not actually a cone, just similar."
Yeah, most people envision a right circular cone when they hear cone. And to be honest, that's what I had assumed before I took a close look at the templates and the rules text.
But that would mess up the distances either along the sides, or along the center axis.
Nooo...what have I done! The trigonometry is eating up my brain!
But on a more serious note, has anyone come up with an explaination I can use in pfs to whoever is gming? :p
Id have thought its a 3 x 3 ft square really.
using the:
_X_
XXX
XXX
template, you would get a circle, radius of 7.5 ft on the flipmat?
Just a Mort wrote: Nooo...what have I done! The trigonometry is eating up my brain!
But on a more serious note, has anyone come up with an explaination I can use in pfs to whoever is gming? :p
Id have thought its a 3 x 3 ft square really.
using the:
_X_
XXX
XXX
template, you would get a circle, radius of 7.5 ft on the flipmat?
No. a 15' color spray aimed down at the ground will give a max extent of 10' radius, 20' diameter.
The template you are using loses 2.5 feet on either side of the maximum extent because the extent doesn't cover the entire square. If you look at the other 15' template, and count diagonally across the widest point, it equals 20'.
Or you could just count across the 30' cone (40 feet) and divide by two for the 15' cone (20 feet).
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