1. Can you use this spell to turn a corpse into another corpse for animate dead? (corpses are objects, so no HD limit)
2. Can you use this spell to turn a statue into a legit corpse by modifying the "replicate stone to flesh spell" thing?
3. Can you turn a grain of sand into 1,500cft of lava for 20 minutes and wall yourself in for 20minutes while everyone in the dungeon either drowns or burns to death from the lava?
1) You could make a corpse look like another creatures corpse, but it still wouldn't be the other creatures corpse. I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to accomplish, but in general the effect would be the same whether you polymorphed a human skeleton into a giant skeleon and then animated it or you animated a human skeleton and polymorphed it into a giant.
2) you would get a statue make of 'inert flesh' which means it is not a legit corpse
2) lava isn't really a thing, it is basically stone at a high temperature. I don't see that the polymorph spell will provide the high temperature. Even if that was allowed, it probably wouldn't do nearly as much as you hope, as 1500 cubic feet is only 6 five foot squares 10 feet deep. It would be the rare thing that couldn't handle that in some fashion by the time you have access to an 8th level spell.
In 3.5 I used to artificially make my own corpses for animate dead.
PaO doesn't just change the appearance, it changes the object into a different object, so you can PaO a piece of wood into stone and it wouldn't be just a disguise.
Since corpses are objects, you could turn a corpse of a goblin (or just a pebble, corpse is just to increase the PaO duration) into a corpse of a 20hd dragon and animate it via animate dead. This is RAW legal in 3.5 and I was wondering if I could use the same trick in pathfinder. Unlike a real corpse though, the animated skeleton is dispellable so it is inferior than the real thing, but on the other hand you don't need to go corpse hunting.
Pathfinder polymorph is weird, it juts changes attributes and adds some small gimmicks, nothing more. But PaO's ability to change objects into other objects seem unchanged so i'm posting this just to be sure I'm right about that. I hate hunting for good corpses for animate dead, especially since the raised skeletons don't last very long.
About the lava thing, molten rock is an object, so is ice. By your logic you can't PaO a piece of wood into a block of ice, so I think you're mistaken about the temperature thing.
Hmn... I can see this getting out of hand real quick.
1 and 2:
How would you define corpse? If its just an inert "body" then sure. If it had to be alive and killed then no. I can see all sorts of arguments for and against it but really its up to what you can work out with your dm.
Personally I would say no, because part of the undead condition in my opinion comes from what a corpse of a creature used to be: A living creature that dies and takes on a semblance of death afterward.
3:
I really don't know about the temperature thing, but all things have a different state of being based on the temperature and pressure surrounding the thing, so this could be in any environment to get a result. So maybe, the only problem I would have with this is the fact that the spell is one for one.... Object or creature.... So, does that much lava equate to one object? Its very hard to determine for liquids and gasses...
Arcanic Drake wrote: Hmn... I can see this getting out of hand real quick.
Personally I would say no, because part of the undead condition in my opinion comes from what a corpse of a creature used to be: A living creature that dies and takes on a semblance of death afterward.
Well, if you can give life to a rock by PaOing it into a living creature, i don't see why you can't turn a rock into a corpse with semblance of death. For a more clear example, if you have before you a body of a dead giant, why can't you turn other stuff into that same dead giant? Of course, since this is all magical, 1 successful dispel magic will utterly annihilate everything about it.
Also, you can PaO stuff into undead zombies so...
But your logic would definately say no to #2. For #2, I was wondering with PaO if I can turn stone to flesh into something more powerful. So instead of just inert mass of flesh, I was wondering with PaO I can add bones and such.
I don't think this would get out of hand because a 20hd skeletal dragon is hardly a threat, especially in a CR15 setting. It's more of a fluff thing for me than anything. 130hp with 12 AC is just a wall if anything, and its attack is +17 and +12, not to mention they cost 500gp to raise one and a dispel magic would end them right then and there. It's just an alternative to using create undead spells, which are corpse-type independent.
For the 1500cft of lava, PaO can affect 100cft/level, and since I'll be level 15 when i get that spell, I just chose 1500cft as a reasonable amount, if anyone is wondering where I got that number.
1. Theoretically, yes. A corpse is an object, though as a former living thing the same rules would probably apply, shrew to manticore is a rather short duration if memory serves. I'm being lazy and not looking up the rules. Also it's well within the DM's purview to rule that animate dead doesn't work on an enchanted corpse, or that the corpse in question has to have had a spirit (different from a soul) in it. Or that the spirit is of the original animus so while it may be 200 feet tall and have all the attributes of a giant giant, it's still only got the hit dice of a human skeleton. What happens if the polymorph is dispelled is also an issue. It might insta-die from spell failure, or convert to a tiny skeleton with low hit points but soaking a lotta hit dice from your "bucket".
Most of that would be house-ruling, but the kind of house-ruling that most folks adopt.
2. No. A statue is not a former person, it doesn't have the semi-magic "memory" of bones and sinew and hair, so you'd get a pile of poorly-differentiated flesh. Mind you, there's probably some 3rd-party "flesh blob" horror of undeath out there you could create with it.
3. Turn a grain of sand into 1,500cft of lava for 20 minutes? usually.
Wall yourself in for 20minutes? No. With MAXIMUM DM discretion and a cube of walls of force, you're looking at an average of 5 HP of damage to the wall per round, In 6 minutes the barriers all break, the lava pours in, and you burn/drown.
While everyone in the dungeon either drowns or burns to death from the lava? No. Outside of the room you are currently in there will be no line-of-effect, and bursting down doors/walls or going around corners with the initial transmutation is outside the normal purview of the spell. You can fill all available space within line of effect with lava and let it flow around, but it will cool enough to stop moving rather quickly, Especially as it moves around and spreads out.
Come to think of it, 1500 cubic feet is 10 by 30 by 50 (or some similar combination) which is about the size of one fairly large dungeon room, which then flows down to about one-quarter full before crusting over, rough for everything in the immediate area but not a "dungeon ender". And since the lava moves rather quick at first, and any way you make it means you gotta have line-of-effect, yeah, you're in severe danger of frying yourself.
Total immersion in lava is 20d6 and then another 10d6 for 3 rounds, It'll kill most anything not fire immune, but the fallout is problematic if you aren't outside and far away. Also there's a decent chance it would be permanent, so you'd have to dispel it later. Much easier to get some lava (by whatever means) and either Polymorph any object or Shrink Item it, keep it in a magic bag (out of dimension = safe from premature activation) as a "tactical nuke" of sorts during major emergencies. Not to mention you can do that with vats of acid, holy water, and liquid ice for things that have elemental immunities. (They have "intrinsic value" and can't be just poly-made).
Then your DM punishes you, not for creative thinking, but for forcing him to make up lava flow rules on the fly.
Any other questions?
Shrew to manticore is 1week, manticore to shrew is permanent, though dispellable.
The lava thing is just an example. I could just as well turn the ground the enemy is standing on into acid, a hole that's 1500cft deep, etc. In 3.5 PaO's strongest abuse was a "just die, no save" spell, so i was wondering if such use is possible in pathfinder, and whether or not a gentleman's agreement is required.
So you're saying by RAW, PaOing corpse is legal? :)
Lore wise, undead are just corpses connected to the negative energy plane. No spirit needed, just a connection, which animate dead establishes.
I actually do have one more question.
4) Can you polymorph stuff into named creatures?
a. A general is about to invade a country. Can you PaO a rock into that general, who now has 10/10/10/5/5/5 stats, and use charm person to extract information out of him?
b. You have a fanatic follower and a suicide mission. Best solution would be to PaO a rock into that fanatic follower and have it go on the suicide mission, sparing your fanatic follower.
"Just die, no save" is kinda tough, acid can be nixed as "intrinsically valuable" and dropping a pit full of acid (essentially) calls up reflex saves akin to a certain class of spells (The create pit line).
By RAW, PaOing a corpse is totally legal; also by RAW, animating it bases it's stats on the ones it had in life (which were the stats of that dead mouse you pulled out of the mouse trap). Getting creative on one side (manticore skeleton stats post-transmutation) gives the GM license to get creative on the OTHER side (when the body suddenly shrinks, it creates a big negative energy backlash on you as all the energy flows back up the control link to you, or something).
Lore-wise, there's something creating programming, you CAN create a naked skeleton that somehow holds together (despite no ligaments) and walks around (despite no inner ear, brain, or other means of maintaining balance), you CAN'T create a negative-energy-fueled Rock Construct, even though it has just as much reason to move as that skeleton. Up to the particulars of the writer how far that goes.
4) Yes-ish.
a. Lore-wise he won't know nothin', but he might have a soul and some kinda reflection of the knowledge you put into him. It won't be the general, but it will look like him as long as you made a decent disguise check. Dose him with the right info and controls and he can play a doppelganger gambit. It will likely be doomed to failure, but sometimes all you need is confusion and paranoia sowed by a handful of body-snatchings.
b. Rock-spawn dude's just a dude what looks like your fanatic follower. You give it an order it doesn't have to obey and may not even understand the order. This also means you can't control undead that you created from a rock without the animate dead spell. You CAN however talk him into loyalty and dangerous service (he starts as indifferent) with appropriate diplomacy checks. 3 DC 20 to 30 checks (totally doable) and he's running a suicide charge for ya. Won't have class levels or related hit dice tho, so you'd best spell him up to make sure he gets the package delivered.
You're making a gross physical change, not a fine-tuned spiritual/mental change.
Arcanic Drake wrote: Hmn... I can see this getting out of hand real quick.
1 and 2:
How would you define corpse? If its just an inert "body" then sure. If it had to be alive and killed then no. I can see all sorts of arguments for and against it but really its up to what you can work out with your dm.
Personally I would say no, because part of the undead condition in my opinion comes from what a corpse of a creature used to be: A living creature that dies and takes on a semblance of death afterward.
Sorry I meant semblance of life... but I guess you guys got what I meant.
To expound on the original line of questioning, I do find it a lot harder to use transmutation. I realize it used to be the bestest school ever, but that stopped being the case when teleport was (rather reasonably) ripped out and given to conjuration. Polymorph spells are just hard to follow now, abilities may or may not transfer from a number of forms, and the lack of creative license until polymorph any object is frustrating. Maybe I just want to a second set of arms, but unless I can find a sourcebook with humans packing extra limbs (and the DM says they're in the campaign world) I can't do it, even though I CAN grow wings and a bite attack with the same spell.
But them's the breaks. Polymorph has always been campaign trouble, from the 2nd edition koosh ball critters with total magic immunity and full wizard casting to the huge regenerating acid and fire immune troll with the abilities of a fighter/cleric gestalt in 3.5.
I'm curious: what would people think about doing the corpse thing the other way around?
Animate a human skeleton. Polymorph it into an Earth Elemental. What happens?
First time, it rolls a natural 20 on its save and nothing happens.
*gets slapped*
Ow, okay, it becomes an intelligent and free earth elemental, with no previous mind it has no real memories of before (subject to narrative meddling) so it has no RAW reason to be your friend or your enemy.
When it reverts? DM's call. Rules are vague on the nature of the link between a necromancer and a necromanced, so you've got room for anything from, "the bond is forever broken, the skeleton is now free to destroy you" to "the bond was there, you were tied to it, but it could not hear your call until now" to "heh heh, you don't actually think you're going to survive this next fight in the first place, do you?"
The mindless nature shouldn't change-- you're effectively duplicating Greater Polymorph, and that doesn't affect the target's mind.
" If the target of the spell does not have mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma), this spell grants a score of 5 to such scores."
Pretty sure in 3.5 the text was about object-to-creature, so it used to be that way, but this is Pathfinder.
But if it was an animated skeleton, wouldn't it already be a creature, so creature-to-creature applies? That line specifically was why I'd asked about doing it this way.
Sorry, I was speaking awkwardly.
The quoted text is from the pathfinder version of the spell.
Quote: This spell functions like greater polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. You can use this spell to transform all manner of objects and creatures into new forms- you aren't limited to transforming a living creature into another living form. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its transmuted state. The duration is determined by using the following guidelines.
deleted irrelevant table
If the target of the spell does not have physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), this spell grants a base score of 10 to each missing ability score. If the target of the spell does not have mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma), this spell grants a score of 5 to such scores. Damage taken by the new form can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. In general, damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force. A non-magical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren't affected by this spell.
This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.
This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, greater polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.
Nothing about it needing to have started as an inanimate object, nothing about it needing to have not had ANY mental stats. Just any non-existent mental state becomes a 5.
Interesting side note: Nothing in the text about turning a rock into a creature with no Int score (zombie). Presumably it was overlooked for the sake of brevity, but it is still amusing.
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
