Rules Clarification: Non Lethal Damage vs Ferocity / Die Hard Effects

[DiscOH]

Non lethal damage applies thus:

Quote:

When your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you're staggered. You can only take a standard action or a move action in each round (in addition to free, immediate, and swift actions). You cease being staggered when your current hit points once again exceed your nonlethal damage.

When your nonlethal damage exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless.

Spellcasters who fall unconscious retain any spellcasting ability they had before going unconscious.

If a creature's nonlethal damage is equal to his total maximum hit points (not his current hit points), all further nonlethal damage is treated as lethal damage. This does not apply to creatures with regeneration. Such creatures simply accrue additional nonlethal damage, increasing the amount of time they remain unconscious.

There are 3 common sources for staying conscious at negative hit points:

1 Orc Ferocity

Quote:

Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.

2 Die Hard

Quote:

When your hit point total is below 0, but you are not dead, you automatically stabilize. You do not need to make a Constitution check each round to avoid losing additional hit points. You may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn't your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

When using this feat, you are staggered. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some swift actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If your negative hit points are equal to or greater than your Constitution score, you immediately die.

3 Regular Ferocity

Quote:

A creature with ferocity remains conscious and can continue fighting even if its hit point total is below 0. The creature is still staggered and loses 1 hit point each round. A creature with ferocity still dies when its hit point total reaches a negative amount equal to its Constitution score.

The confusion stems from non lethal damage in excess of your current hp causing you to fall unconscious. If we are to read these abilities as per RAW, they can never function (even with 0 non lethal taken, a character at -1 hp has more non lethal damage than current hp, so they immediately fall unconscious).

The alternative is to let non lethal damage accumulate until it turns itself into lethal damage. There are problems here as well since this will usually mean non lethal damage isn't even worth 1/2 of a point of lethal damage (you need non lethal to exceed max hp before anything starts to count towards death).

With the kineticist close on the horizon, I feel like non lethal rules will become a lot more relevant, and in preparation for that I would like to fully understand any rulings that have been made (or in their absence, try to have one made).

[Secret Wizard]

i feel they don't interact. Endurance already protects you quite well.

[DiscOH]

Secret Wizard wrote:

i feel they don't interact. Endurance already protects you quite well.

I've had endurance apply exactly 0 times in the 3 years I've been playing pathfinder (outside of sleeping in armor).

[Secret Wizard]

It allows you to take double nonlethal. Should apply often for a kineticist.

[mplindustries]

You only fall unconscious from non-lethal if you actually have nonlethal, so the whole "you fall unconscious at -1 because you have 0 Nonlethal" is silly rules lawyering to try and convince us that Diehard and Ferocity should apply to Nonlethal. It doesn't. 1+ Nonlethal prevents Diehard and Ferocity from functioning. Sorry.

Also, what's this about Endurance doubling your nonlethal? Since when? It just lets you sleep in heavier armor and gives you a bonus against several sources of nonlethal. It won't help a Kineticist at all.

[Blakmane]

Secret Wizard wrote:

It allows you to take double nonlethal. Should apply often for a kineticist.

In what universe, exactly? Can you give us a citation?

[DiscOH]

mplindustries wrote:

You only fall unconscious from non-lethal if you actually have nonlethal, so the whole "you fall unconscious at -1 because you have 0 Nonlethal" is silly rules lawyering to try and convince us that Diehard and Ferocity should apply to Nonlethal. It doesn't. 1+ Nonlethal prevents Diehard and Ferocity from functioning. Sorry.

If ferocity was designed so players could have a mechanical reason to slap orcs, I'd be very surprised.

Either way, I've seen a ton of table variation on this, and it's only going to become more relevant in the coming months.

[Starfox]

It seems very odd that plinking someone with a single point of nonlethal damage should negate Diehard and similar.

[CampinCarl9127]

It's called diehard, not unconscioushard.

[Casual Viking]

As written, non-lethal overrides ferocity, with the clarification that no non-lethal damage means your non-lethal damage score is "N.A.", not "0".

[Rysky]

CampinCarl9127 wrote:

It's called diehard, not unconscioushard.

Really?

[Rysky]

Starfox wrote:

It seems very odd that plinking someone with a single point of nonlethal damage should negate Diehard and similar.

Yeah, I've always found that visual very stupid. And annoying.

[Metux]

Non-lethal damage is so OP.

My half orc skald were going to take guarded life as his first rage power, but when I saw this corner case by doing some simulation, I took the lesser spirit totem because I didn't want to ask my GM some fixes...

In order to keep raging, thus fast healing 8 with skald's vigor, raging vitality is way better.

So sad...