The Limits of Silent Image (and similar spells, I guess)


Rules Questions


After some preliminary searching (not saying I am a master of the search function) I haven't found an answer to this. I have a few questions about what happens when one uses silent image in ways that block line of sight...

1) The Illusionist creates lights, colors, fog, darkness or some other intangible "stuff" that obscures all vision within the AoE. Is this legal? It seems to fall under creating a figment of "a force" per the spell description, but I am not sure. Also, if it is legal, when would enemies make a save for interaction? Is simply being in the darkness/fog/etc enough? If so, would they get a new save each round they spend in the effect by default for continued "interaction?"

2) Can I cover an ally with a mobile illusion of the same "stuff" as above? For example, a "shower curtain" of opaque fire, colors, etc that moves around with an ally providing total concealment (of course, if they left the area, this application of the spell wouldn't work). If this works, I assume that the foe would get a save if they attacked the allies square?

Note: This wouldn't be de facto invisibility, since the foe could still tell where (approximately) the ally is.

3) Can I cover an enemy with a similar mobile illusion, effectively blinding them? If the illusion were, say a 15' sphere around a human (such that they couldn't reach out and touch it), would they even get a save for interacting, or would they have to take an action to disbelieve?

Another question important to the ramifications of 1,2, and 3: Would allies that know the caster routinely does this sort of thing (because they were told something like "Whenever you see me cast these shimmery colors that block LoS, it's an illusion.") be immune, get a save at a bonus, or be just as impeded as enemies (that is, have to make a normal save upon interaction)?

And, a final question; can figments block the flow of light? For example, say that some PC's are in a temple with skylights. Can one use silent image to create an illusory "ceiling" in order to make it (naturally) dark inside by blocking the skylights, or would the light pass through the figment, making the illusion obvious?


1. It seems legal to me, and I would say they get a save upon entering the fog since it affects their vision. If they fail the initial save they do not get a second save by my understanding unless someone presents proof that the illusion is not real.

2. You could put the image between the ally and the opponent, but I don't think it is legal to put an image "on" the ally to hide him.

3. Since the illusion is affecting them I would say they get a will save. For most mobile illusions you have to actively control it, but it might work.

3B. If this is a prediscussed tactic then I would say they do not need a save for an ally's illusion in this manner.

3C. This is a creative use of the spell, much like 3B. This may be one that varies by GM. Figments are not real, so they should not be able to block light. <---My interpretion after checking the magic section.

PS: Illusions are still subject to spellcraft so if the enemy has someone who can identify spells in their party they might be able to negate(to an extent) your illusions by announcing that they are not real. I would not advise building around illusions unless the GM is willing to handwave some things.


I see... I guess another question would be, assuming you are concentrating on the figment "continuously" through the round, does it "act" on your turn? Because that would preclude anything moving with someone *not* on your turn.

On 3... Don't most/all figments affect your vision? But yes, I don't think that this should be a "no save" situation. I just don't yet see a rules reason why. If you can't move the illusion when it isn't your turn, it would be rather easy to escape (at least temporarily).

I am with you on figments not blocking light (this was my intuition as well). On the other hand, if no illusions block light, that would make some uses of Disguise Self rather dubious. And no figments would have shadows... So it's problematic. I guess the shadow could be "part" of the figment.

Also, yes, Spellcraft is a thing. The Illusionist I am currently worried about, however, is a Bard with Spellsong, so spellcraft is only nominally a thing.


On your turn you get to tell it what to do, and that is what it does until your turn comes up again.

Some figments are sound based, and some can fool other senses. You could duplicate the heat of fire as an example with major illusion.

Disguise self is limited. I like it as an enhancer, but not as the primary mode of disguise.

Sovereign Court

The concept of "sufficient interaction" is a bit vague. There's been some comments from Paizo people in the past that commonly, a Standard action suffices; not just a standard to say "I disbelieve", but attacking something is also >standard, so it also counts.

However, there are many exceptions to this, such as Ghost Sound, which automatically grants a saving throws. I think the other main flavor of sufficient interaction is when the enemy is "immersed" in the illusion, when it's basically the caster forcing the illusion into direct contact with the enemy. Your (1) would be an example of that.

Creating an opaque haze as in (1) with a figment illusion would be legal, but if an enemy saves then it'd cease to be opaque;

CRB->Magic->Illusion wrote:

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

2) Silent Image is a Figment, which tend to be "freestanding", as opposed to glamers, which are "attached". If you tried to use SI on an ally, it'd be a bit like bad computer graphics, where the overlay on something doesn't move smoothly with the object it's trying to cover.

I don't entirely agree with wraithstrike on whether you get to control the illusion when it's not your turn. The Major Image spell for example has the line "The image disappears when struck by an opponent unless you cause the illusion to react appropriately.", which implies to me that this is possible, at least for Major Image.

3) I would rule this as basically you forcing the illusion on them, so that they get a free Interaction and therefore saving throw.

As for your un-numbered question: whether allies can auto-disbelieve your illusions; I'd say yes, because the Disbelieve rules quoted above say that "incontrovertible proof" lets people disbelieve automatically.

However, if you're the tricky sort, and sometimes the wall is an illusion, and sometimes it's an actual Wall of Stone, then I'd only allow the "illusion pointed out by others" variant where they save at +4. Unless of course you include some detail on your illusions that you don't use on your real spells, like giving illusory walls a specific tiling pattern, so that your allies know what's up.


1)

Illusions are tough to adjudicate and RAW only offers some guidelines - in general a good rule of thumb is to keep in mind the 'total area' that the illusion can encompass - interaction typically means 'trying to determine if it's real' - as others have said it's usually a standard action minimum inside of combat - although I'd say if the illusionist is causing the illusion to interact with something intentionally that should allow a save without the need for an action. The fun thing of illusions is (if you are creative enough, and the gm is game) the ability to combine spell effects, or even duplicate higher level effects with a low level spell - when trying to judge this type of use just remember an illusion gets at least one save - and more once someone figures it out (at a huge bonus) and can be auto-disbelieved with proof - so a 1st level illusion duplicating darkness might seem powerful - in reality it's not in most situations.

2) I'd say based on the current RAW and writeups on illusions - no.

3) Yes assuming the entire area is within the limits of the spell - the enemy shouldn't get a save until their turn when they should use a standard to interact - at least the first person to do so anyway. Only once someone saves and shows the illusion to be fake do the rest of them get the automatic save. The key here is that the effect isn't actually touching the enemy - if the illusionist forces the effect to be in contact with the enemy I believe they should get the auto-save.

Another question important to the ramifications of 1,2, and 3:

You are supposed to auto-disbelieve if you *Know* it's an illusion - in such a way assuming the caster adds 'tells' to his spells for his allies he can create fog clouds over the party that frustrate the enemy but don't hinder the party - same with wall spells and other 'battlefield control or obstacle spells' - note however if he creates a wall and the party goes through it - that should trigger a save from the enemy.

And, a final question; That's a tough one - RAW I'd say - yes but only within the area of effect of the illusion. So for silent image "four 10-ft. cubes + one 10-ft. cube/level " - in the case of a skylight depending on how high up it is most likely not - and in that case the light being broken up would be enough of a 'tell' to get a save automatically. In any case I think uses like that will require a bit of the GM's touch in what they will or won't allow - I'd most likely try to keep lower level spells from duplicating much higher level effects - so for silent image I'd say lowering the light by one level might be appropriate, and perhaps for Illusory Wall (as a 4th level spell) I'd let it block any light source. Both are figments, but in this case I go with the 'the higher level the spell - the more you can do with it' - to whit:

Paizo PRD says "Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. "

Paizo PRD says "When the spell is used to hide pits, traps, or normal doors," (Illusory wall - figment)

The rules are slightly contradictory regarding illusions - so I fall back on the idea that the higher level the spell - the better it is at what it can do - also in the case of the more specific the spell *or* description - the better the illusion is.

I like the thought that an illusionist who wants to make a wooden chair and focuses on it can make a chair so real that you couldn't tell it was fake after falling through it - while something big - vague - and without alot of description will correspondingly be vague and easier to figure out.

Sovereign Court

1. You could - but they'd get a save every turn. And it would affect your allies too.

2. I'd say no - but you could potentially make a maze of tunnels for your ally to move through which would still provide cover for him - and the enemy wouldn't know where in them they were. But you can't make it 1-way glass or anything.

3. I'd say no on making it mobile.

Most of your ideas affect your allies too. Even if you have a code word to let them know it's an illusion (good idea to have) they still have to pass a save, just with a bonus.

As to covering skylights - I'd say no. After all - there'd be nothing REALLY preventing the light from getting it.

In the end - when it comes to figments - expect table variation.

I actually play a PFS gnome sorceror focused upon illusions. Here are a few of my favorite uses of image spells which no GM has quibbled about.

1. Boxed Enemies - my #1 use of image spells - simply put an illusionary box or cage around every enemy which are connected by wires (so it's a single illusion) - use a cage if they're melee only monsters, a box if they have range. They will then, on each of their turns get a will save. Sure - some will get out, but it allows the rest of your party to take them down piecemeal, or if in cages, fill them full of arrows. If none pass their save, just move one of the boxes 10 ft into the air... after the rest of the party readies actions to attack.

2. Chasm... What Chasm? - As the name suggests - it's great whenever you know a fight is going to happen around a bridge, pit, etc. I used this to hide the party behind a wall on the other end of a bridge and make the chasm look to be solid floor... covered in treasure. :P One of the opposing group fell to their death rather nicely. Depending upon the GM - they may give them a will save or not, or perhaps make you do a bluff check.

3. They're Everywhere! - This one requires at least minor image - but can be handy. Just make it appear to your foes that they're an extra dozen or so people on your team. Mostly archers (who are just plain bad shots so they don't notice why they don't do damage) in stupidly exposed positions, just screaming to be charged. Makes the enemy waste actions and get out of position. I've never seen a GM not allow it - though maybe with a bluff check to convince them it's real. (not hard with a sorceror who spends the ranks)


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
1. Boxed Enemies - my #1 use of image spells - simply put an illusionary box or cage around every enemy which are connected by wires (so it's a single illusion) - use a cage if they're melee only monsters, a box if they have range. They will then, on each of their turns get a will save. Sure - some will get out, but it allows the rest of your party to take them down piecemeal, or if in cages, fill them full of arrows. If none pass their save, just move one of the boxes 10 ft into the air... after the rest of the party readies actions to attack.

Uh, do they not try to press against the bars? Because I would totally press against the bars if a wizard suddenly made a cage around me. Even if I didn't think it was an illusion.

The other two uses are totes legit and excellent, and I'd only allow will saves for magic-savvy foes (until they got there and swung through the illusions)

Sovereign Court

Bronnwynn wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
1. Boxed Enemies - my #1 use of image spells - simply put an illusionary box or cage around every enemy which are connected by wires (so it's a single illusion) - use a cage if they're melee only monsters, a box if they have range. They will then, on each of their turns get a will save. Sure - some will get out, but it allows the rest of your party to take them down piecemeal, or if in cages, fill them full of arrows. If none pass their save, just move one of the boxes 10 ft into the air... after the rest of the party readies actions to attack.
Uh, do they not try to press against the bars? Because I would totally press against the bars if a wizard suddenly made a cage around me. Even if I didn't think it was an illusion.

That's why they get a save every turn - because touching the bars is 'interacting'. Though of note - they don't have to be normal bars. They can be covered in poisonous looking spikes. If a minor image - they can be made of crackling fire etc.

If they see someone else pass through a cage after passing their save - they'd get the +4 bonus for someone telling them. (one reason to go boxes instead of cages - though enemies with speech can still yell it)

Sovereign Court

Bronnwynn wrote:
(until they got there and swung through the illusions)

Of note though - when they get the will save for interacting with them (as the caster - you should make them die - falling easily to keep it from being proof that it's an illusion) - they get a save against the whole thing. Not just the one that they sliced.


I'm not quite sure what happens when you "hit" them, though. If you swing an axe straight through your foe and meet no resistance (as the foe is a figment), do you get a save or do you automatically save?

Sovereign Court

Cyrus Lanthier wrote:
I'm not quite sure what happens when you "hit" them, though. If you swing an axe straight through your foe and meet no resistance (as the foe is a figment), do you get a save or do you automatically save?

They just get a save. Especially if you have them react properly. Touching a figment is the usual way of interacting with it.


If illusions can block sight, they can block sky-lights. If light passes through a thing, that thing is by definition transparent (or translucent :p)

Sovereign Court

Knight Magenta wrote:
If illusions can block sight, they can block sky-lights. If light passes through a thing, that thing is by definition transparent (or translucent :p)

In real life I'd agree with you, but... magic! I'd say that since the figment isn't actually there, it has no effect on the light. I figure that's the reason that darkness isn't an illusion.

You could arguably make an illusion of blocking the skylight AND the room becoming dark, but that's another ball of wax entirely.


You can block the skylight so no light appears from there. However, the light level would not change.

/cevah

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