Make sure that if you have forced rerolls as an ability or trait, that the PbP GM knows it. Both are immediate actions that happen before the result of the roll is announced. See my suggestion up-thread.
You need to state conditions for triggering the effect, or use a post later to state you modify a roll.
/cevah
I like your 2.3 Recruitment suggestion to find a spot or two for new players. I tell folks at the outset of my recruitment(s) that I like to take at least one player that does not have a lot of PbP gaming experience, it's my way of paying it forward. I was that new player a couple years ago. Certainly, I've had attrition but I do believe it's important to help others gain that PbP experience.
I've actually completed the entire COT AP, and it took from May 2012 to July 2014, to do so, and we had 26,346 posts which made it the most active non-mass player game on Paizo. Completing an AP or module takes time. We could not have achieved that without everyone's commitment. Here is my number rule: Communicate. That goes both ways. A quality DM will keep their players advised if he/she can't post, likewise, players must make the same commitment. If you look at any of my three current games, you see that practice in action.
I know that I incorporate the vast majority of the items listed in Painlord's guide. Good work.
(x.x) Setup a Information Repository - PbP games can go on for years. It's helpful to everyone if the GM set's up a repository of information relevant to the games environment.
My online gaming group has a traditional wiki that one of the GMs set up for our mostly shared world. Everything from character sheets to campaing world information. It's very useful and fun.
1. Be a PbP Player before a PbP GM. I feel that this should really be a commandment as well. Getting at least a game or two under your belt as a player helps acclimatize you to the needs and volume of PbP GMing.
While I agree that player PbP experience is useful, it's difficult to be a player on these boards for many. I can respect someone's decision to GM a campaign instead of be a player just to be able to play PbP. I'd hate to see someone discouraged from trying just because they've seen your commandment. An inexperienced PbP GM is better than no GM.
... it's difficult to be a player on these boards for many. ...
It is not hard to get into a PFS PbP. They are starting and finishing all the time. Most are first - come first serve. Even if PFS is not your 'thing,' it is an excellent way to get some PbP experience.
... An inexperienced PbP GM is better than no GM.
Not entirely sure I agree with this. If someone has zero exposure to PbP I would think they would be almost certain to end up on that huge pile of dead campaigns back in the swamp. I would rather not get into one than be accepted, put a significant amount of time and effort into it, and suddenly it's dead just like all the others.
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One suggestion that I would make if you're new to PbP DM'ing is to start small. That is begin with a finite module, or one-shot, type of game before tackling an AP. I've run a one-shot game to it's conclusion and I'm about to conclude a second module. These can be great finite games to help DM's hone their PbP skill and to get a handle on how much time it really takes to run a successful campaign.
Running a PbP game, IMO, takes much more work and time then running a weekly or bi-weekly table top game. You are gaming every day, so DMs and players need to be vigilant. You can be creative and still plan. More likely than not a game will fail if a DM simply wings it.
Here are a few interesting statistics regarding PbP Games. As of last night there were 4597 games on the Game Play thread. Of those:
a) 1439 games had 501, or more posts, roughly .31
b) 731 games had 1000, or more posts, roughly .16
c) 221 games had 2500, or more posts, roughly .048
d) 62 games had 5000, or more posts, roughly .013
e) 15 games had 10000, or more posts, roughly .003
With those more successful PbP games, I would be surprised if the DMs did not plan for success.
One suggestion that I would make if you're new to PbP DM'ing is to start small. That is begin with a finite module, or one-shot, type of game before tackling an AP. I've run a one-shot game to it's conclusion and I'm about to conclude a second module. These can be great finite games to help DM's hone their PbP skill and to get a handle on how much time it really takes to run a successful campaign.
Running a PbP game, IMO, takes much more work and time then running a weekly or bi-weekly table top game. You are gaming every day, so DMs and players need to be vigilant. You can be creative and still plan. More likely than not a game will fail if a DM simply wings it.
Here are a few interesting statistics regarding PbP Games. As of last night there were 4597 games on the Game Play thread. Of those:
a) 1439 games had 501, or more posts, roughly .31
b) 731 games had 1000, or more posts, roughly .16
c) 221 games had 2500, or more posts, roughly .048
d) 62 games had 5000, or more posts, roughly .013
e) 15 games had 10000, or more posts, roughly .003With those more successful PbP games, I would be surprised if the DMs did not plan for success.
Being one of those GMs with the 5000+ post games I can say that I did exactly what Baldwin is talking about. I started my PbP with a single module (Hollows Last Hope), and then moved from there. We have currently completed 3 other modules, a PFS scenario and a bunch of homebrewed stuff in the campaign.
My first suggestion to all new GM's on the boards is "Start small".
Well, the use of modules meant my "prepping" involved mostly reading the modules a few times, then I went ahead and assigned a few quirks to a couple NPCS. EX: I made one of the child NPC's extremely outgoing and question asking so she was always getting into the PC's conversations. I also did a bit of reading the rules on trip/reposition since one of the baddies would be doing that. Oh, and since the original module was written for 3.5 I edited some statblocks.
So yeah...thinking about it I prepped a bit, there wasn't much to wing.
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Thanks for putting this together; the guide is very useful.
I'll admit that I'm biased and that I enjoy a PBEM more than a PBP but I can see how these two game formats overlap to some extent and most of the suggestions are very applicable to both formats.
I've been roleplaying on line for 'a while' and put together a guide for playing PBEMs back in the last century.
Now that play styles have 'evolved', it gets harder and harder to find players to play in a PBEM (I'm still running a CC game that started in 2012) so I'm trying to adapt to the changing times. Here's my attempt (MM) at 'hydbrid' PBP or a PBP with turn recaps.
To all GMs out there,
Game on!
After GMing PbP games for about 2 years now, I can heartily agree with all of the advice given by Painlord et al. I learned many of them through trial and error as I've gone and I think (or at least people tell me) that I've gotten to a point where I can be considered a decent PbP GM.
There was one little comment in there that I wanted to emphasize: For those thinking about starting up PbP GMing, start small before you go big. PFS scenarios are a great starter for PbP GMs because they are short and compact (most usually finish in 4-6 weeks) and the game is less likely to lose momentum from either the player or the GM. It also serves as a nice test; if something doesn't go smoothly in your first game, try something different in the next one. After you've gotten a few of those under your belt and have learned the tricks of the trade, then you can move on to a longer homebrew or AP.
PFS scenarios and other short games are also a good way for the GM to observe the players and pick out those with good habits for when you are ready to make the leap and try your hand at GMing a longer game.
I started GMing PFS scenarios and after several months some of the players started asking if I was ever going to run an AP. I eventually caved and hand-picked four consistent and reliable posters that I knew I could trust with such a big commitment. That game is still going nearly 1.5 years later and is on Book 4 of Shattered Star. The pace is still strong and we will probably finish next year.
I would also like to emphasize consistency as an important quality in a PbP GM. I generally update all of my games every morning and then check in on them throughout the day, making updates as needed. Establish a schedule that works for you (and for your players) and then try to stick to it as much as possible. All GMs and all games will have some off days (weekends and holidays almost inevitably cause hiccups in posting), but the more consistent you are as a GM, the more consistent your players will be (or they will risk falling behind and most players will step up their game if risk falling behind or holding up the game).
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Let me try that again:
No prepping, no winging?
I'm particularly dense so I have to ask these sorts of questions.
There is certainly room for "winging" it....but just like it is always better to follow a recipe that someone else has already worked out, and then tweak it than it is to just start throwing a bunch of things into a pot you've never used before, on someone else's stove, with ingredients that you may or may not even recognize, to serve to people who have never sat at your table, it is better to do some preparation, and add bits of "winging" it to taste, carefully, until you get the quirks figured out.
If even this much is more preparation than can be stomached, your play by post results may vary....just like in cooking. And just like in cooking, after you get used to things, you'll be better able to judge how much of a "smidge" of this and a "dash" of that to use.
But please don't spring your experimentation on the players unawares. Be upfront and honest about the possibilities with the players. Tell them, "I've never done this before, I'm not much on preparation, but I want to give it a go. It may crash and burn, but I promise that if I find it is too much for me, I will let you know rather than let you guess."
If you can do that - and follow through on that promise- then it is likely to be ok, even if it doesn't work out.
Here are a few interesting statistics regarding PbP Games. As of last night there were 4597 games on the Game Play thread. Of those:
a) 1439 games had 501, or more posts, roughly .31
b) 731 games had 1000, or more posts, roughly .16
c) 221 games had 2500, or more posts, roughly .048
d) 62 games had 5000, or more posts, roughly .013
e) 15 games had 10000, or more posts, roughly .003With those more successful PbP games, I would be surprised if the DMs did not plan for success.
Baldwin - Caould you post a link to the Game Play thread you're referring to? When I look at the PbP campaigns page, I see about the same number of total online campaigns, but there are only seven with more than 10,000 posts. I'm in a game with just under 10,000, and I'm curious if there's some other page you're looking at. (In part because I'm excited to be in the top ten, but I'm not by your count.)
Thanks!
Here are a few interesting statistics regarding PbP Games. As of last night there were 4597 games on the Game Play thread. Of those:
a) 1439 games had 501, or more posts, roughly .31
b) 731 games had 1000, or more posts, roughly .16
c) 221 games had 2500, or more posts, roughly .048
d) 62 games had 5000, or more posts, roughly .013
e) 15 games had 10000, or more posts, roughly .003With those more successful PbP games, I would be surprised if the DMs did not plan for success.
Baldwin - Caould you post a link to the Game Play thread you're referring to? When I look at the PbP campaigns page, I see about the same number of total online campaigns, but there are only seven with more than 10,000 posts. I'm in a game with just under 10,000, and I'm curious if there's some other page you're looking at. (In part because I'm excited to be in the top ten, but I'm not by your count.)
Thanks!
This is how you find that information:
1. Go to Online Campaigns forum then click on Play-by-Post.
2. If you look just above the "Topic" header you will see numbers that's how many play-by-post games there have been. This includes active and dead games. There are 100 games per page. FYI currently there are 4605 games, so there have been a few new games added since my original post.
3. If you look over the middle header will show "Posts" if you click on the "Posts" Header it organizes the tab with the most posted in first then follows in descending order.
It's simply addition game from there.
Your Second Darkness campaign is currently #17.
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This goes back to the "Finish What you Start" theme of the OP, don't become one of those DM's that is addicted to the attention and excitement of recruitment. What I mean by that is this: There are some posters (DMs) that appear to enjoy the recruitment stage, the attention they receive, and the control they have over the selection process. But when it comes time to open the game and move forward their games tend to stall on pg 1 or 2, then there will be long absences and excuses. Their discussion threads tend to be longer then their game threads because the players are asking where's Waldo. This is simply not fair to the players who put in time and effort to create characters.
This is how you find that information:
1. Go to Online Campaigns forum then click on Play-by-Post.
2. If you look just above the "Topic" header you will see numbers that's how many play-by-post games there have been. This includes active and dead games. There are 100 games per page. FYI currently there are 4605 games, so there have been a few new games added since my original post.
3. If you look over the middle header will show "Posts" if you click on the "Posts" Header it organizes the tab with the most posted in first then follows in descending order.
It's simply addition game from there.
Your Second Darkness campaign is currently #17.
Which is exactly what I did - I had provided a link to that page already sorted by post. What I did not do is show hidden games, which I had a bunch of from helping a friend do some meta-analysis of PbP games a while back, and I didn't want to keep seeing new post announcements in all those games.
Now my numbers and yours match up, but I'm no longer in the top ten! Anyway, thanks.
Alright, I didn't think it was that big a deal, but since it was actually requested...
I believe that roleplaying threads should be reserved for the Gameplay tab, so as to avoid spamming a subforum intended for Recruitment with non-Recruitment content. A non-Gameplay thread occasionally lapsing into roleplay is all well and good, but there's no sense in creating a thread solely for roleplay and sticking it in the wrong forum.
I could see such a thread perhaps working fine in Discussion, for that matter. Nobody's really going to care. But Recruitment is not the right place. People are going to be constantly dropping in assuming your thread to be for, well, recruitment, and they'll be disappointed when they instead find what seems to be a misplaced roleplay.
Like I said, it's no big deal, as long as the roleplay doesn't go on much longer than a page or two. It's just liable to cause some misunderstandings (like people dropping in to "correct" you on your missing the Gameplay tab).
And to those in the linked game: Good luck with the Whispering Cairn! Watch out for [spoilers]
Well, first things first: thanks Painlord for this guide (And the player's one: that's what got me into PbP in the first place :D ).
Regarding the RP in recruitment, I agree with what Kobold Cleaver said: it's mostly to avoid clogging up the Recruitment forum. Also, kinda related question: if you already have all of your players picked, is there a reason to post in the recruitment tab in the first place? I've seen a lot of "NameCampaign (CLOSED)" threads, in which all of the players are already picked and the GM asks for people to dot/post builds, and then move to the Discussion/Gameplay tabs.
It's only a pet peeve of mine, but wouldn't it just make more sense to post directly into Discussion?
P.S: I've waited to post in this thread even if I read it as soon as it was posted because I've been trying to compile some tips on recruitment threads that I wanted to share: unfortunately, my thoughts are way more scattered than I thought, and it's taking some time. <.<
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I also want to thank Painlord for his player's guide. Reading it made me decide to try a Play-by-Post for the first time. I'm at the very beginning of a "We be Goblins!" game, and enjoying the heck out of it.
I think that your GM guide is just as interesting as your player guide, and useful for players as well. It's good to know (even as a player) the work that goes on the GM side of the board.
Hmm
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I have not read this thread, so I don't know if they've already been mentioned, but worth saying anyway. Two things I do that make combats run more smoothly are averaging initiatives and posting monster stats.
At the beginning of combat, the DM should roll initiate for everything in the fight, including the PCs. Make a document with the macro typed out the first time you do it, and save it somewhere to save time for future fights. Then copy+paste it at the start of each fight and add the monsters.
Add up all of the PCs' initiative rolls and divide the sum by the number of PCs. That is the whole party's initiative. Then do the same for monsters, combining any monsters with identical stats into one block. Then PCs actions can be posted whenever the party is up, and happen in posting order.
The second thing is posting relevant monster stats in a spoiler somewhere so that PCs can resolve their own actions. For me this is ACs, Saves, Special defenses, CMD, DC to demoralize (if a PC often does that kind of thing), and a macro for the monsters AOO ([dice=...). That way the PCs can roll saves for the monster, they can roll AOOs on themselves if they provoke, and they know whether they hit or not. When its time to update at the bottom of the round, if everyone did it right, all I have to do is summarize and tally damage. This knowledge is out of character, of course, unless a PC made the appropriate knowledge check. This second tweak requires players who know the rules and pay attention, but smooths things considerably.
One suggestion that I would make if you're new to PbP DM'ing is to start small. That is begin with a finite module, or one-shot, type of game before tackling an AP. I've run a one-shot game to it's conclusion and I'm about to conclude a second module. These can be great finite games to help DM's hone their PbP skill and to get a handle on how much time it really takes to run a successful campaign.
Running a PbP game, IMO, takes much more work and time then running a weekly or bi-weekly table top game. You are gaming every day, so DMs and players need to be vigilant. You can be creative and still plan. More likely than not a game will fail if a DM simply wings it.
Here are a few interesting statistics regarding PbP Games. As of last night there were 4597 games on the Game Play thread. Of those:
a) 1439 games had 501, or more posts, roughly .31
b) 731 games had 1000, or more posts, roughly .16
c) 221 games had 2500, or more posts, roughly .048
d) 62 games had 5000, or more posts, roughly .013
e) 15 games had 10000, or more posts, roughly .003With those more successful PbP games, I would be surprised if the DMs did not plan for success.
I have several category C games, and I believe I've had at least one D game (albeit spread over multiple threads). I never prepare ahead of time other than maps. That's the brilliant thing about PBP, you don't need to. As long as you're willing to keep updating and stick with it, running pre-published material is easy. Someone asks an NPC a question you don't know the answer to? Go look it up. No one is sitting at the table posting on Facebook on their phone waiting for you.
Homebrew is another beast entirely. That requires a lot of prep work before the game starts, but not necessarily that much once it's going.
Just my two cents.
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I like the idea of monster DCs and I think someone was putting together a database for all the monsters. Looked like this. It would help to have a cut and past for PbP format for each creature.
Aasimar – Medium Outsider (Native)
DC 10 – Aasimars are humans with celestial or other good
outsider blood in their ancestry
DC 15 – Aasimars look mostly human except for some
minor physical trait that reveals their heritage
DC 20 – Aasimars are resistant to acid, cold, and electricity
DC 25 – Most societies interpret the birth of an aasimar as
a good omen
Thanks, Pain, for another excellent guide!
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Losing players is part of the package.
Just make sure you understand why you lost players (correcting where necessary) and that new players know what is expected of them.
Game on!
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You lose players all kinds of reasons or a mix of a few.
You can guess, I guess but its rare that a player will give the whole extent of their reasoning for leaving.
Sometimes they disappear from the boards. Real Life, they don't like your style, setting, game, choices other players make, the character they are playing is uninspiring.
Or maybe you made poor player choices when you picked them. Some players are really good at making spiffy characters but poor and running them. Or others get excited at just making characters, those are the guys that apply to every Pbp advertised... you should check their histories, see how they post, do they stick with it? and so on.
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A lot of the reason for losing players is simply they lack the time because real life intervenes. A DM can hardly be blamed for that, nor can they really control for it.
A lot of players will drop out at the beginning because PbP isn't for them or your style isn't to their liking. The ones left behind with be the PbP gold who will post and play regularly and enjoy your games. But even then, some will drop out because their work routine has changed, making it hard to post, or they have to concentrate on other things, and so on. It happens and is part of playing PbP.
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I've read Painlord's guide and am ashamed to admit I do not follow it very well
My games lose players regularly, and I often fail to keep things clear.
But, I'm still running games, so, there is that. And I can always try to improve.
I just went ahead and bolded the most important part of that statement. Persistence, consistency and self improvement go a long way not just on these boards but also in life. Good on ya.
^^^^
+1
Who says gaming is fruitless?
speaking of games finishing, how many adventures paths went from book 1 to book 6 and actually finished on these threads. Someone told me there was only 1, but that was a while ago.
Please note I'm including the following.
1. The game does not have to be exactly as written, a good bit of it can be changed up, but the story is basically the same.
2. The DM started from book 1 got so far, closed the game, and then reopened the game from where he/she left off and then finished the game.
3. House rules are allowed. If the DM says all heroes do 5 extra damage to constructs and undead, then that is fine.
4. The game does not have to follow the leveling system exactly. If the Dm has the heroes 1 whole level above and beyond what they are suppose to be at all times, that is okay.
5. Also the treasure system isn't exact, the DM has the right to mess around with that.
6. The DM has the right to skip a page every now and then.
I've done 5 modules and a PFS scenario along with a few homebrewed adventures in my Falcons Hollow game. The characters are only level 6 but they have been advancing only 1 level per module/adventure. If you looked at page numbers I imagine we are pretty close to an AP's worth of pages.
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These are the only two complete Paizo APs that I know that has been completed via PbP that I know of:
#1:This bad ass run as Pirates.
#2:GM Evilan's Curse of the Crimson Throne. There is a reason why GM Evilan is so mentioned in the original post.
And this mofo is in the final fights of Book 6:
Council of Thieves. 3 GMs, some early turnover, but...it's almost in the books.
Just wanted to say thanks for the guide Painlord.
so was the #1 skull and shackles?
also, given my mummy's mask game is halfway through book 5, I might be number 3 though I'd have to go pretty darn fast to do beat that DM, or the 4th. Wasn't sure if there were other DMs I'm busy racing against that is on book 5 or book 6.
I've got one half-done and another that is really close to being finished with Book 2; both of them move at a pretty decent clip, I think, and I have high hopes of finishing them (even if it's probably talking a couple more years, honestly).
My Kingmaker is also close to being done with book 2, but is much slower. I think the sandbox elements just don't work as well in PBP and I'm planning to start streamlining it a lot moving forward in hopes that gets it up to speed a bit more.
Hey Painlord, Congrats on getting the Sticky for your posts! I can't think of a more deserving set of posts (your two and Doomed Hero's one). Love it.
As for my comments on this guide... it is absolutely spot on! Your first guide (and Doomed Hero's) convinced me to keep trying PbP after two pretty bad experiences. I actually wrote the PbP guide attached to my GM Damo profile (which you linked to - thanks and glad you liked it!) based on yours and DH's guide, with my own add-ins for what I thought was important. I essentially took everything that frustrated me about the games I was playing and wrote about how to fix or avoid them. I then took the GM chair and haven't looked back.
Back to your guide, a definite take away point for me to add to my games is getting players to do more of their own management (ie. treasure, round / initiative counters, save DCs, etc). Many of my guys do it anyway, but I'll definitely be pushing more for it in future.
I will say that I think GMs should use the GM PC (what some, including us, call "botting") more often than suggested. If you have a required posting rate of every 24 hours, make that a 24 hour "bot clock" and take over that PC when it hits he limit. That keeps everyone clear on your expectations, and (perhaps most importantly) moves the game forwards. It really helps players to know they'll only ever have to wait X hours maximum more before a certain PC acts.
Doomed Hero (in his unreleased guide, linked on his profile) and you now have suggested using a combat table, which is a great idea and I've been using in all my games now. If anyone is interested here's my implementation (Slave Ships of Absalom Spoilers). The PCs essentially threw down with every enemy on the ship simultaneously, making it one hell of a confusing combat (over 2 separate map levels!). I think it does a nice job of simplifying the situation, combining the initiative, active conditions (including damage dealt) and the corral post Painlord mentioned, telling players where things are at by annotating their actions. I keep it on the cloud (using Notes) so that I've always got access to it for a quick modify then copy-paste. It looks great and doesn't actually take that much effort to maintain once it's done.
Finally, a number of commenters have touched on recruitment, and I thought I'd submit a little guide to recruiting, sharing some techniques that have helped me to recruit what I firmly believe to be one the best group of PbPers out there. I posted it recently and you can find it here:
Wilmannator's Guide to Successful PbP Recruitment
I was originally going to post it here, but I’d like the guide to be usable as a regular reference. Also, this comment is big enough already!
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Wilmannator's Guide to Successful PbP Recruitment
Fixed the link for you!
Thank you Corsario and Dal Selpher! Sorry about that, forgot to actually put the URL in. :-)
Great guide Wilmannator, wish I had it a year ago.
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I really like this post from GM Rutseg: It focuses on three things I appreciate: training players, setting expectations, and, mostly important because it's something I missed in guide, contingencies.
That's also a premise when you post, if you are unsure if something works in a certain way,, if not, I will just ignore the action or tell you what other thing to do. It just saves a lot of time in PbP. Even more if you add contingency actions in spoilers.
For example:
If no one says against this direction, I check the left door for traps.
If nothing found:
I open the door and go into the room if there is no immediate danger.
If the door is locked:
I call the party rogue to open the door. If we don't have rogue, I try to force it open with my axe
GM answer:
The door seems to have no traps at all. When you try to open it, you discover it is locked. You call the rogue and he unlocks it.
Your torch light goes inside the room, and you see a big birthday cake. All of a sudden your Pathfinder friends come out around and greets you all. "Happy birthday!"
That saves us from expending 3 days checking questions and answers back and forth to decide where to go and what happens with it.
Well done, GM Rutseg.