Rules questions for 5e...how does this work?


4th Edition

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Is there a rule about making a perception check or something to see an enemy when there is an ally or 2 between you and the enemy?
What about darkvision, does a torch in the area totally negate it or does it work outside of the torch area?
How about moving through a friendly pc's space during combat, is there a check to do it or is it ok as long as you don't end movement in an occupied square?

The Exchange

Also what about soft cover or targeting enemies with allies in between you and the enemy? Is there a rule that either gives an advantage/disadvantage or something?
My DM has been running pretty loose on the rules and I want to iron some of this out so I can play the game by the rules instead of by some loose houserules if at all possible.


No to the first 2. There's a rule that you can't move through another's space unless they are 2 sizes larger than you (halflings have something that allows them to move through another's space that is 1 size larger). Not sure if that applies to friendly PCs or just hostiles, but the DM I played under had it apply to friendly as well as hostile. I also don't know about any soft cover rules about shooting past allies to attack an enemy.

Are these things that your DM has said happen? Or are these things you think should be happening but the DM doesn't?

Also, there aren't as many hard rules in 5th edition like there is in Pathfinder or 4th edition. It's more like AD&D in that things are up to the DM more often than up to the book.


You can get cover if there are intervening entities (friendly or enemy).

We've said you can move through an ally's space (five feet square isn't that crowded, in our view) I don't know if there's a rule about it though.


You can move through an occupied space as long as:
1: That space is occupied by an ally, or
2: That space is occupied by someone who's at least two sizes larger or two sizes smaller. (could be an enemy)


One point to remember re: moving through another creature's space is that it is considered moving through difficult terrain (even if moving through a fellow PC's space) which doubles the movement cost; thus, moving through a 5 foot space occupied by another creature uses 10 feet of movement.


Cover rules that might apply to your inquiry (per Basic v 2.0):

A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.

I would think this still requires some adjudication by the DM based on how much distance there is between the three parties involved: ranged attacker to potential cover to target.


Fake Healer wrote:

Is there a rule about making a perception check or something to see an enemy when there is an ally or 2 between you and the enemy?

What about darkvision, does a torch in the area totally negate it or does it work outside of the torch area?
How about moving through a friendly pc's space during combat, is there a check to do it or is it ok as long as you don't end movement in an occupied square?
Also what about soft cover or targeting enemies with allies in between you and the enemy? Is there a rule that either gives an advantage/disadvantage or something?
My DM has been running pretty loose on the rules and I want to iron some of this out so I can play the game by the rules instead of by some loose houserules if at all possible.

If there's an enemy between you and your target, they probably have half cover, giving them +2 to AC and Dexterity saves against your attacks, Perception is not impacted particularly. EXCEPT: Lightfoot halflings have a racial feature called "Naturally Stealthy" which enables them to hide when obscured only by a creature one size larger than they are. (In other words, halfling rogues can hide behind an ally and pop out to do sneak attack.)

Darkvision allows you to see in complete darkness as if it were dim light. If there is a torch, you aren't in complete darkness. Outside of the torch's area, you are in complete darkness, and darkvision applies.

Moving through a friendly creature counts as double movement (like difficult terrain), and you can't willingly end your movement in their space. Otherwise it's perfectly kosher.

Hope this helps!

-The Gneech


I'm sorry, but I've decided not to use "spaces" in my 5e games so I can't help you.

But if the same sort of situations came up in one of my games, say a PC wanted to "notice" an enemy approaching and there were people between the PC and the enemy (a crowd, friends, whatever) I would categorize the DC of the active Skill Check as either Medium DC 15(2-10 people)or Hard Dc 20 (11+ people) and then apply Disadvantage to the roll if the conditions of Light or such things as smoke or fog applied

The Vision and Light section of Chapter 8 (page 183) does an excellent job of explaining how Darkvision changes the characters die rolling conventions regarding Heavily Obscured areas (Darkness is defined in this section as a heavily Obscured Area!) and makes no comments about how any light source changes the nature of Darkvision so in areas of Dim Light (A Lightly Obscured area) you have no benefit from having Darkvision.

Cover (page 196) does not define such things as "soft cover" but instead defines three degrees of Cover, something that blocks your ability to see half of you target gives your target "Half Cover" (a +2 bonus to the target's AC), and it clearly says a "Creature (friend or enemy)" provides half cover.

The Exchange

Adjule wrote:


Are these things that your DM has said happen? Or are these things you think should be happening but the DM doesn't?

The DM is currently ruling in these ways and I have only seen rules that contradict those rulings....it's frustrating me because I really am trying to stay as close to real rules as possible as we test the system but some of these "houseruley" type of rulings just seem to be slowing down the game and adding in weirdness by making people have to make odd checks to move through allies squares and even seeing if there is an enemy 20 feet away if an ally or 2 are in between the looker and the enemy. I want to gather information to present actual rule info when the weirdness pops up next.

The Exchange

So on the vision thingy- If I am a dwarf standing 10 feet in front of my human friend who is carrying a light source giving off 20 feet of light, I can see 10 feet in the light and then 50 feet with darkvision, or can I only see 10 feet and after that darkvision is nulled because the light is within my square?

The Exchange

Terquem wrote:

But if the same sort of situations came up in one of my games, say a PC wanted to "notice" an enemy approaching and there were people between the PC and the enemy (a crowd, friends, whatever) I would categorize the DC of the active Skill Check as either Medium DC 15(2-10 people)or Hard Dc 20 (11+ people) and then apply Disadvantage to the roll if the conditions of Light or such things as smoke or fog applied

So you would rule that in a lit room your 2 allies being between you and an enemy 20 feet away would require a DC 15 perception check to even see that the enemy is there? That seems a bit harsh and would make bars and malls IRL really odd places.


I would not make any perception check required to "see" the other person, in the bar, BUT to notice that that other person on the other side of your friends is suddenly drawing a weapon and coming at your friends with intention to harm them, yes I would call for a Perception Check, DC 15 to notice that, because I have been in a Bar (in Scotland) with a friend and two girls when another fellow approached one of the girls, and looked harmless and then suddenly slapped her hard enough to knock her off her feet before I even knew what was happening.

So the situation is the driver here. Do you already know it is an enemy? if so your being able to see them is not important from a Perception Check standpoint but more of a cover standpoint

A torch, in 5e provides Bright Light for a 20 foot radius (no adjustments to perception checks), and then from 20 to 40 feet out, Dim Light (a Lightly Obscured area, so characters have disadvantage on perception checks in that area) and then darkness. If you have darkvision you treat the area of Darkness as Dim Light (nothing is said about areas of Dim Light for you) so you have disadvantage on perception from 20 feet away from the torch out to 60 feet.

Darkvision never gives you anything other than Disadvantage on Perception in Darkness, while most others cannot even attempt a perception check in Darkness


Accustomed to life underground, you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

That's the description of Darkvision under the dwarf racial entry. So, in Terquem's example, with a torch out, a dwarf (or anyone with darkvision) would see "perfectly" within the entirety of the torchlight. The dwarf would have 40 feet of bright light, then the rest dim light. The human would have 20 feet of bright light, another 20 feet (out to 40 feet) of dim light (thus the disadvantage), then complete darkness.


You know that's sort of interesting that it makes the comment about Dim Light being treated as Bright Light under the Dwarven section, but in the Vision and Light section under Darkvision, nothing is said about removing the penalty of disadvantage from the Dim Light condition (which for a dwarf becomes Bright light within the range of their Darkvision).

The Exchange

My DM is having us make perception checks throughout combat, not just during surprise. Three rounds in the people in the back still need to make perception checks to see if they can see the bad guy thats been fighting their buddies....
I will have to remember that about Dwarven vision though. It's really irritating how much they keep changing that from edition to edition...I still remember infravision and such...


That's the description of Darkvision under all the races that have the ability.


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Fake Healer wrote:
My DM is having us make perception checks throughout combat, not just during surprise. Three rounds in the people in the back still need to make perception checks to see if they can see the bad guy thats been fighting their buddies....

Yeah, that's just the DM being annoying for reasons that make sense to them alone, I suspect. :-`

-The Gneech


I have a question about CR. If a CR4 monster will be a challenge for a level 4 party, would two challenge a level 8 group and three challenge a level 12 group, etc? Is this how bounded accuracy works or have I misunderstood the concept?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
mikeawmids wrote:
I have a question about CR. If a CR4 monster will be a challenge for a level 4 party, would two challenge a level 8 group and three challenge a level 12 group, etc? Is this how bounded accuracy works or have I misunderstood the concept?

It's not so linear. Here, play with this a bit to see how different CRs interact with the party level.

http://kobold.club/fight/#/encounter-builder

-The Gneech


Thanks for posting that link, it should prove super helpful. :D

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