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ray-cats...so need to be a thing!!!
So what haiku do you create to keep the kids away from a nuclear storage site ten thousand years from now?
Sail not the boiling sea,
Do not hunt its moon light fish,
Death has an empty belly.
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What is the point of haikus when 1,000, 5,000 years from now odds are strong no one will speak anything recognizable as English (or Chinese or Spanish or etc.)?
Screw it. Until it is economically viable to jettison nuke waste in the Sun, The World should evacuate Australia and quarantine all nuclear waste there. In a couple hundred years or so, the ultra rich Eloi can hold safaris hunting the giant mutated Australian fauna (and their psionic mangophycomid masters).
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We're still reciting nursery rhymes from several hundred years ago and previous versions of the language. If they get (or are made) popular enough, they'd probably get updated with the rest of the language and still be (reasonably) good teaching tools. Heck, within even just a few generations, there would probably be dozens of variations anyway. Yes, this might dilute the message some, but it would still be out there.
Unfortunately, I have no poetic talent whatsoever, so I can't really contribute to this thread beyond the above. But, I do have to say, as yellowdingo threads go, this one actually makes a fair amount of sense and could actually be useful! 8^)
We're still reciting nursery rhymes from several hundred years ago and previous versions of the language.
We're reciting them, but no one understands them (or cares to).
Can you tell me who Little Jack Horner was? Here's a hint: the earliest known version of the nursery rhyme dates to 1725.
Similarly, the story that Ring a Round the Rosy is about the Plague is discredited and is not believed by any serious scholar.
And that's just a few hundred years. If you want something that will be robust to 10,000 years of lingustic and cultural change -- well, remember that the Indo-European family of languages is itself only around 5-6 thousand years old (by most linguists' best guess).
What is the point of haikus when 1,000, 5,000 years from now odds are strong no one will speak anything recognizable as English (or Chinese or Spanish or etc.)?
Screw it. Until it is economically viable to jettison nuke waste in the Sun, The World should evacuate Australia and quarantine all nuclear waste there. In a couple hundred years or so, the ultra rich Eloi can hold safaris hunting the giant mutated Australian fauna (and their psionic mangophycomid masters).
or This evolves and takes over australia. And as we all know, once you have australia you'll rule the world once everyone else dukes it out.
Actually... there is an old oral tradition in the norse areas of the world that apparently harkens from the end of the latest ice age some 10000 years ago. It's called Bro bro breja, or maybe that's the name for one part of it. It has been heavily changed, of course, but parts of it do seem to be incredibly old. It's as they describe it, an oral tradition for festivities. It is still known today. I would theorize that this might have been their inspiration for choosing this method.
What I consider more relevant is... did someone do what they intended some 10000 years ago? Humanity was largely the same as now, and it's quite enough time to destroy any traces of most high cultures. Give us 10000 years and there won't be much left, no?
A third point is that locking all that nuclear waste away so it can't be recovered might not be the absolute best idea ever. You can use breed reactors to extend the fission cycle, using precisely these isotopes. Further, they DO radiate energy, meaning it's entirely possible future humans will find ways to use that energy.
One thing that is being missed here..... plots can survive multiple thousands of years. I assume everyone on this forum is familiar with the story of the Garden of Eden, or of the Trojan Horse, or of the Cyclopes. Of course, we're familiar with these stories in translations, and the stories we're familiar with are probably far removed from the original versions told around Bronze Age campfires. But the stories persist, and you still know to "beware of Greeks bearing gifts" even if you don't know about Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes.
Which suggests that YD, as usual, is being silly -- there's no way his "tripetal flower" would survive ten thousand years (in fact, I doubt the word "tripetal" would survive three retellings. Nursery rhymes and similar poetry that are primarily vehicles for rhyme-and-meter wouldn't survive. But there's an outside chance that a stirring tale of the Evil Dragon Stronium who poisons the very air in his cave might.
I'm dubious. Canterbury Tales was he equivalent of a best seller for it time. There was a time when a moderately educated person could recite entire take from it. Even now I'd wager most high school kids have to read some of it. If also wager that if I grabbed ten random people of the street and asked them about it two or the would know what it was and none could remember any of the plots.
On the other hand, eight of those ten people could tell you what a Trojan Horse is, and the Illiad was already older then than the Canterbury Tales are now.
Similarly, I'd bet that eight out of ten Americans could tell you the tale of the Flood or of the battle between David and Goliath.
We can add some of Aesop's fables to the list : The Ant and the Grasshopper, the Lion's Share, Belling the Cat, Androcles and the Lion, and the Goose that Laid the Golden Eggs are examples.
The point wasn't that all stories persist, but that some stories persist, even if the wording doesn't.
The tricky part is doing it intentionally. Picking a particular story and making sure that's the one that lasts.
Yes, especially when inimical forces are working to make sure that THEIRS is the one that lasts.
More relevant to this might be various taboos or other cultural no-nos. Tie it to religion and there's a good chance it'll last.
Well, that's part of the problem. Religion is going to want to make a story stick to propagate itself, not do any good beyond the minimum to ensure the survival of its hosts.
{. . .}
On the other hand, eight of those ten people could tell you what a Trojan Horse is, and the Illiad was already older then than the Canterbury Tales are now.
And Monty Python and the Holy Grail includes a devious but unexpectedly excellent example of keeping that particular story alive in modern times . . . (sorry, no link to video -- apparently this is still under copyright lockdown, which by the way, HURTS efforts to keep stories alive).
^Again, that's part of the problem. They put bans on things in the first place not because they are useful to people in general, but because they are useful to the religion.
^Again, that's part of the problem. They put bans on things in the first place not because they are useful to people in general, but because they are useful to the religion.
I think you also vastly overestimate how effective religions are as ways of passing on behavioral modification. How many people whose religious heritage includes Deuteronomy 14:21 actually avoid eating cheeseburgers?
Ironically enough, religion may be a better vehicle for factual knowledge. We may not be able to refrain from coveting our neighbor's stuff, but we know the name of the mountain where Noah came to rest.
^Again, that's part of the problem. They put bans on things in the first place not because they are useful to people in general, but because they are useful to the religion.
Lazy Shaman Hypothesis: Most cultural tabboos arise because they're a good idea. Trying to explain, rationally, why something is a good idea doesn't work nearly as well as explaining irrationally why something isn't a good idea. So instead of "Yeah, look, we're trying to cook pork on a camel dung fire and people keep getting sick. They also keep slowing the caravan down and we'd really like to get to the next water source" isn't going to get someone to give up bacon. "BECAUSE GOD SAID SO!" seems to work a mite better.
^It is certainly possible for a religion to adopt something that is generally useful in the process of being useful to itself -- the two CAN coincide, particularly when something is useful for keeping the religion's hosts alive. But that only goes so far, as one can see from all the UNhealthy (but usually not immediately fatal) habits that the more devout conservative practitioners of major religions engage in, including in the US (and including the cheeseburgers, against which the prohibition is faithfully replicated to this day, but mostly ignored).
Another, even more relevant issue here: If we CAN send messages through some songs and other stuff, is really a warning about nuclear waste the best use we could make of that technique? Really?
^Well, we should also be sending the message to avoid making nuclear waste in the first place, but you know that message is going to get drowned out by contrary interests . . . .
Another, even more relevant issue here: If we CAN send messages through some songs and other stuff, is really a warning about nuclear waste the best use we could make of that technique? Really?
If we could figure out a way to power a device from the lingering radioactivity, we could set up a loudspeaker that plays Bieber on a loop to scare the morlocks (and 'Dingo Rockatansky) away from the danger.
I'm dubious. Canterbury Tales was he equivalent of a best seller for it time. There was a time when a moderately educated person could recite entire take from it. Even now I'd wager most high school kids have to read some of it. If also wager that if I grabbed ten random people of the street and asked them about it two or the would know what it was and none could remember any of the plots.On the other hand, eight of those ten people could tell you what a Trojan Horse is, and the Illiad was already older then than the Canterbury Tales are now.
Similarly, I'd bet that eight out of ten Americans could tell you the tale of the Flood or of the battle between David and Goliath.
We can add some of Aesop's fables to the list : The Ant and the Grasshopper, the Lion's Share, Belling the Cat, Androcles and the Lion, and the Goose that Laid the Golden Eggs are examples.
The point wasn't that all stories persist, but that some stories persist, even if the wording doesn't.
And only 2 of those 10 would recognize "The Iliad" and on average 0 of them would tell you that the Trojan Horse story is recounted in "The Aeneid."
In particular, the idea of "beware of Greeks bearing gifts," would be extremely misplaced in a Greek poem.
^It is certainly possible for a religion to adopt something that is generally useful in the process of being useful to itself -- the two CAN coincide, particularly when something is useful for keeping the religion's hosts alive. But that only goes so far, as one can see from all the UNhealthy (but usually not immediately fatal) habits that the more devout conservative practitioners of major religions engage in, including in the US (and including the cheeseburgers, against which the prohibition is faithfully replicated to this day, but mostly ignored).
Well, it takes time. Thats only been a problem for 50 years or so which isn't enough time to make an impact on a religion or start a new one. Also something that only kills people past their reproductive prime isn't going to have nearly the same impact as something killing young people.
How about an incredibly catchy folk song?
Don't change color, kitty.
Keep your color, kitty.
Stay that pretty gray.
Don't change color, kitty.
Keep your color, kitty.
Keep sickness away.
Don't change color, kitty.
Keep your color, kitty.
Please, 'cause if you do,
or glow your luminescent eyes
we're all gonna have to move.