Cavalier build question


Advice


Hello folks,

Got a new campaign upcoming, and I'm in a bit of a quandary about my character. Here's the premises, the way I understand them:

1. Kingmaker AP, starting at level 1.
2. The group is 5 or 6 people big, but pretty inexperienced overall, or at least inclined to unoptimize. This is best exemplified by the fact that we have a rogue (and future fighter multiclass) pure archer in the party.
3. Allowed material is Core and APG. Ultimate Campaign, Combat and Magic material may be allowed on a case by case basis, but I get the feeling that apart from traits and downtime rules, not a lot will see play.
4. 25 point builds. Two traits, one of which is from the AP.
5. I'll probably be the only real frontliner. Yes, we do have a druid as well, but the player is more of a roleplayer than a tactical gamer, and I suspect that she'll not optimize for shapechanging beyond the usual basics, such as Wildspeech. The bard seems to go for skills, spells and flirting with random NPCs. So yes, it's up to me :).

Given the above, I was thinking of a cavalier, since the GM mentioned that a mount was almost never going to be a problem. We will probably need that charge impact - and the mount can be an extra body in the front line, too, not to mention a flanking buddy after a dismount.

Since we will probably lack a pure arcane caster (even if the bard will do his best, it's not quite a wizard), the battlefield control may come down to the druid and myself. I've never tried it before, but the feat Combat Patrol looks appealing. Would that work, even if I use a sword rather than a polearm or longspear? Can you even use it mounted with a lance? How about Lunge?

My current ideas, although scattered, run roughly as follows:

* Cavalier, Emissary, Order of the Sword. At least 8 total levels.
* A dip into Inquisitor, for extra class skills, saving throws, and wand/spell access. Judgment and Divine Favour will cover for the lost BAB. Not sure yet how much of a dip. Initially, I was thinking 3 levels, for Solo Tactics, but if I go Emissary, that synergy is suddenly not so strong. Maybe Chivalry inquisition, so I don't lose levels on my mount? Deity probably along the lines of Falayna.
* The Sword Scion trait looks nice. Probably more fluff than anything, although a free +1 is never amiss. Still, it won't hurt as an RP hook, and fits the chivalry theme.

I'd much appreciate some suggestions regarding feats I should incorporate, and which ones to skip. I have very little experience with martial controllers.

Silver Crusade

Combat Patrol requires a full-round action to set up. You aren't using any offense during that time, and are depending on the enemy to play into your hand. I have found that a reach weapon and combat reflexes, especially if enlarged covers much of the situation.

My samurai is order of the shield, and the ability Stem the Tide (modified feat Stand Still) is superb battlefield control.

For control, Combat Reflexes is a must, and a lance is a reach weapon, so you are starting out pretty well. Tripping is a great maneuver, which stops enemy movement. If you outreach the opponent, you don't even need any feats to prevent your own provocation of AoO's.

Good luck!


Some points...

Combat Patrol ultimately works best on cavaliers with Order of the Shield - the 8th level order ability for Order of the Shield surpasses any other version of Stand Still in the game. That being said, if your group is poorly optimized, you might find it more effective to play offense rather than just sitting back and waiting, which Order of the Sword lends itself very well to.

I wouldn't worry overly much about solo tactics as you can start training your mount in teamwork feats around 5th level - give it +1 to int for its first stat bonus to allow this.

I'd also recommend against multi-classing in general, as this would retard the development of most of your class abilities. With traits and orders, your skill selection should be pretty well covered already; which class skills were you looking to gain?

The emissary archetype offers great mobility, which I enjoyed in my own Kingmaker campaign, though you might find the Tactician ability to be one worth keeping. Escape Route is a good one to coordinate the extraction of your friends, or even yourself if you use it on your mount. Despite my advice above, I've also made builds which delay my cavalier progression by two levels to ensure my 2nd tactician feat falls on 10th level, letting me take (and share) Coordinated Charge with my party members. This feat is golden in a melee-heavy group.

Sword Scion trait is arguably one of the best traits out there - it's only a question of whether or not it would be worthwhile for you to use longsword/Aldori dueling sword. With a strength-based character, I suspect you'd be better off using a greatsword with power attack, which should hit hard enough to kill off most of your opponents at the lower levels in a single swing. If you're adamant about tanking, though, this trait would lend itself well to sword and shield style fighting. Noble Born - Garess is also (potentially) useful, as are Bastard and Rostlander (presuming you aren't already getting a trait bonus to your saves from some other source).


(In answer to Azoriel)

First of all, thank you for replying with your thoughts. It's exactly the kind of post I was hoping for, and more of the same, by you or others, are very welcome.

Regarding the teaching of Teamwork feats to a mount: I am considering using the human racial ability of "Eye for Talent" rather than using a level-up stat increase, to bump the mount's intelligence. Thoughts?
The alternative, of course, is a level dip in Nature Oracle, for a mount that starts at Int 6!

Regarding multiclassing and dipping: I am especially looking for Perception, Survival, Knowledge (Nature, Local, Nobility), and possibly K: Religion and Perform, if I decide to go for a Varisian heritage. The latter is less important, though. Goodness knows it's about time I play a character that doesn't play an instrument, dances, or sings!

Admittedly, Survival and especially K:N can be covered by other party members (the druid springs to mind), but Perception is very important for everyone, and only the Order of the Dragon grants it. I agree with you that offense is better than defense in this case, and with few fellow melee combatants, Aid Another's not likely my best strategy. [Having said that, one day I will make and play a Swift Aid-based character.]

Multiclassing, of course, also provides with a way around the problematic will saves of the Cavalier. It is, in my opinion, the most important save for all martial characters, and although I can afford a fair Wisdom, just a +2 from stats will not go far when you run into offensive spell casting.

Having said that, I don't want to delay that huge level 8 powerspike of the Order of the Sword too much, if that is going to be the Order of my choice.

I'll admit that the Emissary has me in a quandary. I love the idea of Tactician, and the bonus teamwork feats will be very nice, especially after I teach them to my horse, even without 3 levels in Inquisitor. On the other hand, getting a head start on Mounted Combat is good, and quite possibly necessary to get the feat chain up to steam before the party runs into insurmountable obstacles (pardon the pun). The ability to move on foot at full speed in a breastplate is quite nice as well, since I have no idea how hard it will be to come by mithril armour.

Of course, sticking with Tactician means a dedication to heavy armour and thus mounted combat. I feel that such a heavy focus may come to bite me in the rear end at some point, and that there may not be enough fellow melee combatants to make use of the Teamwork feats I would be distributing. I would be more inclined to take that route if Wounded Paw Gambit were allowed, since it looks like both the rogue and cleric are going to be picking up archery (against my best advice, mind, since Improved Precise Shot will be around level 15 (!) for them) - but it's from a book that the GM will not allow, so Teamwork feats won't be there to support anyone but my own horse, myself, and occasionally the druid. To me, that feels like a slender pay-off, even if Broken Wing / combat reflexes / trip shenanigans look like a lot of fun.

As an aside - the Emissary's sacrifice of the banner does not worry me over-much, since I suspect that with a Cleric and a Bard in the party, those buffs will be provided for one way or another.

The Sword Scion is tricky, I agree. Lance seems the obvious idea for a main weapon as a cavalier, especially since it provides reach, which means it makes combat reflexes that much more useful. On the other hand, Sword Scion is excellent flavour, and no one in the group seems likely to have actual in-character ties to the Sword Lords, which could be tricky in the AP, if I understand the AP's Plater's Guide correctly.

There's also much more likely to be random magical swords than lances, and I'm perfectly happy to use a longsword in two hands. The flexibility of being able to combine it with a shield in a pinch is nice, whereas a greatsword (or lance on foot) doesn't allow for that luxury. Either way, I'd be looking to take Power Attack, since I find it invaluable even for sword-and-board style combatants.

One added question - would you suggest exploring Combat Expertise -> Improved Trip (and sundry feats of that kind, like Fury's Fall and so forth), or stick with Mounted Combat, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, and their ilk?


I personally don't favor Eye for Talent because I think your racial bonus feat would be more useful on you than on getting your mount early access to feats, but there are some who do favor that ability for the reason you mention.

I'll point out there are a few newer cavalier orders from Paizo you may have missed, though I think Order of the Guard is the only new one that gives perception as a class skill.

Most of the skills you mentioned are important (with survival being particularly important for the first segment of the campaign), but they can also be covered by other party members. Perception is important in general, but netting a single class skill can easily be done via trait. I would presume your non-campaign trait is already spoken for, though. (Which one were you selecting?)

My Coordinated Charge builds often involve cohorts, small-sized familiars, or a hunting dog/wolf substituting the mount (huntmaster archetype/houserule) to allow for use even if my party members aren't up to the task of charging with me. When my round starts, my buddy charges, and I use an immediate action to charge with him; afterwards, I either take my full round of attacks, or charge on to the next opponent should the first one be dead - my buddy then takes an immediate action to charge with me. (We can also use Escape Route together should things go bad.) It's like having pounce on my cavalier, albeit this trick may be too convoluted for your tastes, or your DM's for that matter. I'll admit early access to mounted skirmisher could be fun as well. (Not necessarily a "must take", just something to think about.)

Greatsword is generally better than longsword (2.5 more damage on average is a considerable amount), but my own Kingmaker cavalier was lance/longsword primary as well. However, my character was also charisma-focused (due to the 3rd party Weapon Trickery feat) with an eye on being ruler later; strength-based characters are almost always better off with a two-handed weapon than going sword and shield. (Again, just something to think about - you'll be using your lance most of the time anyway, and there's nothing wrong with longsword two-handed, though greatsword will be one-shorting your opponents more reliably.)

I deem Power Attack alone to be more useful than both Combat Expertise and Improved Trip: dead opponents don't require a high AC or tripping to stay down. In my own campaign, most of my opponents were either pushovers or so large/powerful that trip couldn't be done reliably (warranting quick kills to limit my exposure to them), but the utility of these feats will ultimately depend on the monsters favored by your DM. (I will also confess a personal bias towards sword usage, which favors damage over combat maneuvers.)


If you need a mounted supreme front liner, look at the barbarian archetype that let's you give rage powers to your mount that you get from it (its called like wild rider, but I'm not positive of its name). Then, if your GM allows it, go into mammoth rider.


Oh, I know there are newer Orders, but our GM prefers to use only Core and APG, with UC/UM on a case-by-case basis. "Dragon" has excellent skills, obviously, but I'm not sure whether it's worth it changing to a defensive/support build (as opposed to the more assertive Sword) purely for the bonus class skills. Chances are, we need offense to keep us alive, not turtling.

Admittedly, "Eye for Talent" has a lot of fluff flavour for me, since I imagine my character to be descended from Varisian horse traders. I know, it's a Romani trope, but that doesn't make it any worse as a roleplaying angle! That aside, using a level-up is probably the better choice; there's enough animal/cohort feats to pick that the delayed access to teamwork feats on the mount is not a problem.

It looks like we'll be traveling by horse (and in one case cart) as a rule, so Coordinated Charge is definitely on the table. Problem is, obviously, that none of the others, although mounted, are likely to be much use in melee. Bard - probably melee not not focused on combat; Cleric - archery/healing; Rogue - archery; Druid - melee (but melee druids don't usually charge on horse-back, I'd imagine). If we get an additional party member, which is possible, it'd be a wizard or sorceror, so no help there.

Question is, is it worth it to forego Emissary for the Greater Tactician ability plus Cavalry Formation/Coordinated Charge in sucha group? Regular Tactician, given that it costs a standard action, isn't as good as full movement in medium armour in foot, I think, even if you consider the teamwork feat a wash with free Mounted Combat.

As far as longsword versus greatsword - I know that greatsword is the superior choice, and that only increases when you take Enlarge Person etc into account. I do feel that we need the Swordlord link, though, for political reasons, and that makes longsword the obvious preference.

As an aside - I *want* to do a charisma-build, but I see no feats or tricks on the table that would make it viable. I don't think I feel like playing a paladin in this group.
The bard player is very obviously going to stack his sky-high (even if we need him in melee, he wants to play it as a social animal), so we have one CHA role filled. I hope he's not aiming for King, since a chaotic "will sleep with anything" King isn't the most auspicious start for a kingdom. Granted, it's likely to kickstart a royal line rapidly.

I agree with you that Power Attack is more important than Tripping - but there should be room for both, no? I know that very large creatures are nigh immune to it, unless you invest the kind of feats that only fighters or very dedicated monks can pull off.

The mandatory feats are, most likely:
Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Lunge
Iron Will

"Wish list" feats are:
Mounted Blade (but I don't think I can pull off the background story requirements)
Tripping Strike, Steady Engagement, Tandem Trip (if I do go the tripping route; the feat investment seems prohibitive, though)
Broken Wing Gambit, Paired Opportunists
Cleave (rather than Vital Strike)
Cavalry Formation, Coordinated Charge, Intercept Charge
Combat Expertise > Pack Flanking (not sure how well this works with a lance, due to reach issues. Could it work with the horse learning Lunge?)

Hmmm. Guess it's pretty obvious that I lack some hands-on familiarity with this particular role!


Your mandatory feat selection is good, I think. The wish list feats are ones that I (personally) wouldn't get unless I had something very specific in mind, though this has to do with my philosophy on feats - if I feel I have feats that are "optional" in my builds, I try to look for other ones that I deem "mandatory" to replace them.

I'd tell you to solely focus on those mounted combat feats, but there will be several "indoor" encounters where those won't be able to help you. Likewise, I'd tell you to get multi-target feats like cleave, but there's no guarantee that your swarm fights will present you with enemies adjacent to one another.

While I did recommend against turtling earlier, I would suggest consideration of the shield focus and missile shield feats. Since you'll almost always have your shield up, you'll always be benefiting from those feats. The intent behind this isn't simply to turtle but rather to keep you up and fighting while you actively power attack your way through the opposition. However, this might be considered a poor investment given that there's little reason for you to take any of the other feats down this same chain.

Speaking of which, improved shield bash can be a good feat, but tends to be of limited use unless you intend to specialize in either using a shield as your primary weapon or two-weapon fighting. As such, I will actually recommend against this feat, though I will suggest you remember that your shield is a potential melee weapon for attacks of opportunity, particularly while you have a 10' lance in the other hand. (So long as you aren't trying to claim off-hand attacks as part of your full attack action, you won't eat the penalty for two weapon fighting, even if you make attacks of opportunity with a weapon in your off-hand. Yes, you lose your shield bonus to AC when you do that, but sometimes the AoO could be worth it.)

Though cleave requires adjacent opponents, cleaving finish doesn't have such a stipulation and can be applied to any action involving a melee attack (to include mounted charges or even attacks of opportunity). While cleave alone is of questionable value, cleave with finishing cleave might be worth the feat expenditure. However, this chain of feats tends to be more useful to anyone using a two-handed weapon (for optimal gain with each extra attack you get).

The coordinated charge trick tends not to work too well if your only charging buddy is your mount (given the restriction on your own actions from a moving mount), but I'll still recommend escape route, not only for leaving threatened squares but also approaching enemies with reach. Lookout is also good if you have a feat to spare.

Dunno if I'd recommend pack flanking simply because of the feat investment required. Without something else to make flanking more valuable, you're essentially paying two feats for +2 to hit that only applies when your buddy is nearby. If your mount paid for lunge, then the feat cost goes up even more.

I think this should cover most of your feat selection. Regardless of my recommendations, what you select should always be what you're most comfortable with, so go ahead and take whatever feels best to you. The ones I mention above are just the ones I'd take.

PS: You mentioned you'd be making your cavalier charisma-based, but without any way to integrate that into your combat abilities. Unless you can come up with some means to consistently add your charisma to attack and/or damage, you're pretty much hosing yourself as a melee character. Not saying you'll be completely ineffective, but a combat character's strongest stat should always be the one they use most often (whether that be a spellcasting stat for a spellcaster, or str/dex for a character who makes attacks); should you compromise there, your ability to fight (to include your ability to carry your party through fights) will be weakened in the process. To my knowledge, the king only needs to be charismatic; if the king ends up being a figurehead, with the general actually leading the country (like a shogun), there shouldn't be an issue.


Azoriel - what is your opinion on the Emissary versus core Cavalier? If going Emissary, would you still pick up (any) Teamwork feats?

I have been umm'ing and ah'ing over Escape Route. Especially as an Emissary, it's mainly for the benefit of the rest of the party, since Emissary's get Mobility for themselves and their mount. Combined with a decent armour investment and large shield, that should suffice, one would hope.

Regarding the Charisma - I enjoy playing characters that have a social role. They don't need to be the spokesperson, but they need to be part of the play, so to speak. As a result, I always take Sense Motive and almost always Diplomacy, with Bluff/Intimidate on a case by case basis. Given that our dedicated Charisma user (the bard) is unlikely to be all that responsible a diplomat, I'd like to have a viable enough score that I can correct accidents. Doesn't need to be top of the line, of course. Admittedly, I'd love to be able to use Charisma for something other than talking, but them's the breaks at times.

The same goes, to some extend, for Wisdom, although that counts towards Will saves and Perception, too, so that's a solid enough investment.

Of course, this changes a little if I do end up dipping Inquisitor, since there's some very nice ways to boost social skills off wisdom, or otherwise gain flat bonuses to them. I'm not entirely sold on it yet, since I'd either lose power off my mount, or be forced to the Chivalry inquisition, which would have to be negotiated with my GM. [Note, that I discount the Animal domain, since that would force me into a feat tax I would be hard pressed to afford at the levels where it matters.]

Speaking of attribute choices, what is your view on Dexterity for a Cavalier? The Ride checks are absurdly easy, and irrelevant at high levels due to Trick Riding / Mounted Skirmisher. In medium armour, some Dex is of course good, and a good initiative is rarely wasted... but I tend to favour Con over Dex in the front line, myself. Dumping Dex as low as 10 is probably viable for a core Cavalier, due to heavy armour and a belt down the road, but in medium it's trickier.


Makarion wrote:
Azoriel - what is your opinion on the Emissary versus core Cavalier? If going Emissary, would you still pick up (any) Teamwork feats?

I'd never be quick to rule out the teamwork feats; not having tactician means you don't get any teamwork feats for free, but I'd still consider taking them under the right circumstances.

Makarion wrote:
I have been umm'ing and ah'ing over Escape Route. Especially as an Emissary, it's mainly for the benefit of the rest of the party, since Emissary's get Mobility for themselves and their mount. Combined with a decent armour investment and large shield, that should suffice, one would hope.

Escape Route is good for helping other party members, but for it to work they either need to take the feat as well (unlikely) or you need some way to share it with them. Without tactician, I would still consider Escape Route, especially on a mounted character, but only because I like having the option to charge straight into and out of spear thickets without eating any AoOs - this may or may not appeal to you.

Makarion wrote:
Regarding the Charisma - I enjoy playing characters that have a social role. They don't need to be the spokesperson, but they need to be part of the play, so to speak. As a result, I always take Sense Motive and almost always Diplomacy, with Bluff/Intimidate on a case by case basis. Given that our dedicated Charisma user (the bard) is unlikely to be all that responsible a diplomat, I'd like to have a viable enough score that I can correct accidents. Doesn't need to be top of the line, of course. Admittedly, I'd love to be able to use Charisma for something other than talking, but them's the breaks at times.

You don't need to max charisma to be a viable diplomat, just diplomacy. If you want to be primary diplomat for the group (not simply good at diplomacy), then feel free to max charisma as well, but understand your effectiveness in combat will probably suffer as a result (esp. if you max out charisma in lieu of strength). In that case, you'll probably want skill focus in diplomacy as well, and might even want to consider herald squire over emissary.

Makarion wrote:
Speaking of attribute choices, what is your view on Dexterity for a Cavalier? The Ride checks are absurdly easy, and irrelevant at high levels due to Trick Riding / Mounted Skirmisher. In medium armour, some Dex is of course good, and a good initiative is rarely wasted... but I tend to favour Con over Dex in the front line, myself. Dumping Dex as low as 10 is probably viable for a core Cavalier, due to heavy armour and a belt down the road, but in medium it's trickier.

Outside of a mounted archer/gunner, a character built around a finesseable weapon, or a Daring Champion cavalier, I'd probably keep dex somewhere between 10-14 (most definitely don't go any lower). Even for a medium armor character, your sweet spot will still be Dex 12-14. Chainmail has a max dex bonus of +2 (which is what dex 14 gives), and mithral breastplate has a max dex bonus of +5 (which is what dex 14 gives when you're wearing a +6 dex item). As you yourself pointed out, ride checks tend to be pretty easy to make anyway, and, if you intend to max out your charisma, there's a better way to get a good initiative check than trying to max dexterity too.


I'll also dive in here and say Daring Champion is a solid archetype that's worth considering. As far as damage goes, they're up there with chargers (although not as mobile) if you're okay with losing your mount. They're great for Charisma, and they're primarily a dexterity class. However, it's not for everyone and I think it would radically change the character concept you've started on. Just two cents.

Otherwise, you can look up the Golden Legionnaire prestige class if you want to be a big damn hero, and they would work great for someone who wants to play the king.


Oh, I like the idea behind Daring Champion a lot - and it would actually be a good fit, too. But it's not in one of the books we use, so it's a little academic, I'm afraid.


Kingmaker is one of the only APs that is suitable for the mighty Mammoth Rider. If you haven't seen this amazing prestige class, look it up, then look at the Cavalier's Order of the Sword (which you said you're taking) 8th level ability. See how they work together quite well? Yeah. Beast rider cavalier is a great way to prepare for that class, but any cav will do, frankly...as long as it doesn't give up the mount, like DC does.


Oh, and as for the dex question, I never put more than 12 dex on a cavalier. You're proficient with heavy armor (unless you go beast rider or another archetype that gives it up), and max dex in plate is 1 anyway.


People seem to keep overlooking that anything beyond core and APG is basically off-limits, unless I have super-good reasons, and even then only UC and UM. Mammoth Rider is cool, though. Not the image I have in mind, but neat. It's also too obviously a power-gaming move.


Sorry Mak. I admit I did skim through the thread, rather than read it all. Most GMs I know, though, if presented with the Mammoth Rider will let Rule-Of-Cool prevail, especially since you don't get it until 10th level. And it is so flipping cool. It is, quite possibly, the most metal prestige class of all time.

To me, if someone planned a 10th level character idea at 1st level and managed to stick with one character, keeping it alive until then (no easy feat in most games), I'd reward them by letting them take it.

But then again, I'm pretty liberal to my players when it comes to book access, and am very apt to throw out the "Step up your game as a GM if you can't handle your players race/class/archetype combo" line.


Mammoth rider isn't power gaming. It's inconvenient, and cavalier isn't even the best way to do it.

If you like it, why not run it past your GM?


It's tempting, I'll admit. Of course, my current idea was a Varisian girl with stars in her eyes, and Mammoth Riders kind of require a Kellid barbarian in beast furs. :)

Well, I'm going to read over the prestige class. I do like the idea of a monstrous mount, although I prefer "noble" types, such as bear, elk, etc. Things like tiger mounts that make my fellow players look sad are probably not a good idea, and I'm a little afraid that the mammoth fits in that same category. It's tricky - a fairly inexperienced/unoptimising group that needs a chunk of "oomph" to handle combat, without outshining people.


Tou could get a different, more elegant animal approved (like an elk) for the prestige class.

Not only would this fit your flavor, but it would also seem less power gamey.

You can reflavor the barbarian part too.


Along the same lines of asking your DM for stuff, see if you can get him to accept this feat:

Quote:

Weapon Trickery (Combat)

Your fighting style is built on misdirection, hiding your true skill, and constantly concealing your true target and style of attack.

Prerequisite: Bluff as class skill, Cha 13.

Benefit: With a light or one-handed martial weapon, made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Charisma modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.

I was able to argue that this applied to lances from horseback as well (given that it was a martial weapon held in one hand), but there's also the horselord archetype if that argument doesn't fly.


I do like the idea of the Mammoth Lord, slightly reflavoured. The GM seems to have a somewhat skewed idea of game balance (he thinks that ninjas are OP but that wizards are merely adequate), so I have no idea what he'll think of it. Good thing is, the prestige class is one you can grow into. Plenty of levels to go, and by that time a pure martial is hopefully no longer quite so impressive. The best thing is that the character's natural progression would pick up the prerequisites anyway (although I might normally take less than 9 ranks in Handle Animal, I guess).


SO… for multiple reasons, I would go with a ranger or an inquisitor instead of a cavalier.

If you companions aren't going to be involved in melee much, your banner is kinda, well useless, as are your teamwork feats.

Having been through Kingmaker myself, yes cavalier is quite doable, but Im not so sure charge is all it is made out to be, especially given often difficult terrain.

IF I was going to make a knight like character for this campaign, consider talking to the DM about allowing you the use of Samurai or Ronin, skinned and a Lordless/Rogue Knight.

Instead of samurai exotic weapons, ask hint o let you use bastard sword.

now you have a knight errant.
The character does still have banner, but gets bonus combat feats instead of teamwork feats and weapon expertise (access to fighter only feats) and quick draw…combined with mounted archery this makes an excellent switch hitter…. which, if you're the only front liner, you are going to need at times…

without throwing in any spoilers, the ability to use the mounts speed to stay away from things and use archery to still attack those things…is pretty handy… all the while being just as capable as a fighter on the ground slugging it out sword and shield style.


If you want your mounted character to have some CHA synergy you might go Nature Oracle and grab your mount as your first revelation maybe Natures whisper later on for CHA in place of DEX to AC and CMD.
Same armor as the Emissary while a little weaker in terms of health and BAB but you should be able to work around it.
Unless another divine caster would feel a bit to much. Still dippable


Makarion wrote:
I do like the idea of the Mammoth Lord, slightly reflavoured. The GM seems to have a somewhat skewed idea of game balance (he thinks that ninjas are OP but that wizards are merely adequate), so I have no idea what he'll think of it. Good thing is, the prestige class is one you can grow into. Plenty of levels to go, and by that time a pure martial is hopefully no longer quite so impressive. The best thing is that the character's natural progression would pick up the prerequisites anyway (although I might normally take less than 9 ranks in Handle Animal, I guess).

It's funny how these guys are often the ones to ban material too.

Anyway, you wanted usefull advice - personally, I'd go light on the optimization. Being a cavalier with a lance and power attack will take you through most encounters untill book 4 or so. By then (level ~10) you can start taking spirited charge.

On a 25 pb I'd do something like
Str16(+2 racial)
Dex14
Con14
Int13
Wis12
Cha10

Your feats can go like this
1 - Power Attack
1 - Combat reflexes
1B - Mounted Combat
3 - Ride-by Attack
5 - Combat Expertise
5B - Mobility
6B - Improved Trip
7 - Spirited Charge
9 - Greater Trip


Sereinái wrote:

If you want your mounted character to have some CHA synergy you might go Nature Oracle and grab your mount as your first revelation maybe Natures whisper later on for CHA in place of DEX to AC and CMD.

Same armor as the Emissary while a little weaker in terms of health and BAB but you should be able to work around it.
Unless another divine caster would feel a bit to much. Still dippable

Yes, Nature Oracle is very tempting, especially since it bumps the mount's intelligence to a baseline of 6. It would replace the Inquisitor dip with regards to improving the skill list, and do a decent (if not quite as good) job of it. Likewise for spell/wand access.

I like playing divine caster, and admittedly it'd be the 3rd one in the party, but as long as the bulk of the character is "cavalier", both mechanically and flavour-wise, I don't think that's an issue. It also is a good fit with her "going back to her roots" (as a Varisian) and rediscover those ties to the natural world, which was a story thread I wanted to work with, anyway.

Thank you for the suggestion. I had looked at it early on but discarded it offhand, but as a small dip after first level, but still in the low levels, it could be golden. Mechanically not as strong as the Inquisitor dip, but probably a better fit overall. I'll have to talk a little with the druid and make sure she likes that direction I'm taking, since it's in theory possible I'd be threading on her niche there. I don't think it will be an issue, though.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Cavalier build question All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice