Eidolon Wep and Nat attacks


Rules Questions


I'm in the middle of making a level 17 summoner and I'm confused about the attacks the eidolon gets. I've found plenty of forum posts about Natural attacks and then some more about weapon attacks, but I've not been able to find an answer about Natural and weapon attacks.

Quick run through of my eidolon.

Quadruped huge size.
Front legs turned into claws.
Two extra sets of arms, one with claws, the other holding a greatsword.
Two heads, both with bite, trip and poison on the bites.
I have a feat for the sword proficiency and I have multi-attack.
At this level my eidolon is allowed a maximum of 6 natural attacks and has a BAB of 13.

So my understanding is that a full attack round would go like this,

Greatsword +13/+8/+3
Bite +11 +trip +poison
Bite +11 +trip +poison
Claws +11 Claws +11
Claws +11 Claws +11

Is this right? A friend of mine thinks that my eidolon would only get one sword attack instead of all three and that it would replace a natural attack so that it would only have a total of 6 attacks but I feel like he is mixing it in with this:

"An eidolon’s base attack bonus is equal to its Hit Dice. Eidolons do not gain additional attacks using their natural weapons for a high base attack bonus."

This specifies natural weapons and not manufactured. Then there is this:

"This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons."

This tells me I get to attack with a weapon IN ADDITION to my natural attacks but it doesn't specify how many attacks with the weapon so does it follow normal BAB rules?

Any help on this would be appreciated.


He's wrong. Weapon follows standard BAB. Primary Natural Attacks become secondary. You get all the attacks.


Thanks

Sczarni

Hello Eeza,

Natural attacks become secondary (-5 penalty) if used together with manufactured weapons (such as greatsword). In your case, eidolon would gain up to 4 attacks in total if using manufactured weapon and not including any special ability or buff that I missed.

Your eidolon can't use Claw attacks if holding 2h weapon, but could use bite attack once. Imagine it a bit in real time; he cannot use claws if holding a weapon, but his head (bite attack) is unrestricted in that sense.

You can find details under natural attacks (monster rules) section of paizo PRD.

Adam


If you are using weapons for concept then cool. But for power they tend to be a trap. You're usually better off to amp up your slam attack and reskin it as a weapon. And slam arms can be free to hold nice things like wands which you can use with an amped use magic device.


Malag wrote:

Hello Eeza,

Natural attacks become secondary (-5 penalty) if used together with manufactured weapons (such as greatsword). In your case, eidolon would gain up to 4 attacks in total if using manufactured weapon and not including any special ability or buff that I missed.

Your eidolon can't use Claw attacks if holding 2h weapon, but could use bite attack once. Imagine it a bit in real time; he cannot use claws if holding a weapon, but his head (bite attack) is unrestricted in that sense.

You can find details under natural attacks (monster rules) section of paizo PRD.

Adam

The specified Eidolon has a total of eight limbs; four legs (Quadruped base form) and four arms (all added with evolutions). The Claws are located on one set of legs and one set of arms, while the other set of arms will use the Greatsword. So it can still use Claw attacks. Normally you'd be correct, but this particular Eidolon was laid out for us.

For a front-line Eidolon, if you can afford the expense of magically boosting both its weapon and its natural weapons, mixing weapons with natural weapons is a fine choice.


Thanks all for the responses.

@Malag, I do have the correct amount of limbs to do all of my attacks as Kestral pointed out. Also, due to the Multiattack feat I only have a -2 to my natural weapon attacks.

@Melkiador, I did consider going a full natural attack route and there are a few reasons I didn't. I really feel like my eidolon is going to bring the pain. Unbuffed it will do 6d6+28 with a +31 attack on its first sword attack. Against an AC of 40 it does between 250-300 on most rounds (thats with no crits and missing with an attack or two). Throw on haste and magic fang and what not, and it bloody hurts. So while getting rid of the manufactured weapon may increase damage output, I don't feel that it needs it. Secondly, I want my eidolon to have a weapon for fluff purposes. My eidolon is actually my mother (she used to be human but a spell went wrong) and I just feel like an eidolon who used to be human would want a weapon that a human may use.

@Kestral, I agree. I do think this will be a nightmare for my GM but I think mixing natural and manufactured is a nice way to go at the higher levels.


Is your character's name Seymour Guado?


Nah, its Lolita Krimhild and my "mum" is Marleen.


Not sure if that was a typo, but when you make a melee attack (with natural weapons or normal weapons) you make an attack roll, which includes your BAB (+13) plus STR mod, let's say its 30 so (+10) and plus size, which assuming you are large you get a -1

Your total attack roll is 13+10-1= +22+1d20 to see if you hit or not.

That said, it seems to me that Manufactured weapons + natural attacks, even with their -2 to hit and only half in str, still does more damage than full natural attacker.

Without any buffs at 20 lvl with 30 str you do:
Greatsword: 3x 2d6+15 (1/5 str for Two Handed) assuming you have haste so the eidolon gets three attacks = 63 average damage
Then you have 7 natural attacks, and assuming they are all claws and have the improved damage evolution and the improved natural attack feat that makes your claws 1d8, now add large and it becomes 2d6, we add 1d6 from energy attacks also:
7x 2d6+5=77 (only half your str since they cound as secondary attacks) + 7x1d6 from energy attacks=21
Total= 63 (GS) + 77 (NA) + 21 (EA) = 161 Damage on Average.

JUST WITH NATURAL ATTACKS:
7x 2d6+10 (full str) = 112 + 7x 1d6=21
Total Damage: 133

Good luck enchanting all these though :P You don't need more than +1 Amulet of the might fist however.
Ofcourse it is expected your eidolon to have a much higher str and extra buffs and bonuses from charging. That was a simple comparison.


Thanks Lao. My eidolon actually has a strength mod of +17 (44 strength) unbuffed. I just put in the BAB to demonstrate how many attacks I would have.

The damage on this thing is going to be ridiculous. I took a +3 greatsword with Impact on it so that does 6d6+28 (she is also of huge size). Two bites at 2d6+8 and then 4 claws at 2d6+8 I feel that going this way is a lot more beneficial then going full natural attack. So many people seem to disagree (reading other forum posts) that I was wondering if I was missing something.


Just pointing out than an amped slam can put out similar damage if your DM allows the improved natural weapon feat, because it will stack with the evolution. On top of that it benefits from the elemental attacks evolution and reach evolution.

The greatsword does have a better crit chance though. And it has iteratives.

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