Hi All!
A few friends and I have picked up Pathfinder and we are all learning how to play together. The game flow is currently slow because we forget what our bonuses are, how to calculate DC, etc and so forth. We're all newbs and everything is pretty slow moving.
Our GM is getting frustrated because he wants the pace of the game to pick up. We all agree that combat is where most of our time is spent. However, I've also noticed something else interesting but problematic.
Right before goblins attacked during a town festival, my fellow adventurers and I were wandering around town. I knew something wasn't right and since my character is naturally distrusting I made up a lie to get away from my fellow adventurers and tried to shrink into the shadows.
The problem arises in that I roleplayed my way out of the town center, and before I knew it, the GM had me placed on the complete opposite side of town when the fight broke out. The fight began with a thunderstone and I rushed back to the fight but completely missed out on XP.
This is idiosyncratic to how I think the rest of the roleplaying experience is going to be (at least at the beginning).
Can someone more experienced help me understand how the flow of roleplaying should interact with the logistics of the game? How do I express my wishes to the GM but roleplay accordingly in front of my fellow adventurers? Should the GM be asking more questions/giving more pauses for us to act/roleplay? Should I just trust that my fellow adventurers understand the difference between my intent with the GM and what they understand as a PC and just speak up?
I'm new! Help!
P.S. Thanks all in advance
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Can someone more experienced help me understand how the flow of roleplaying should interact with the logistics of the game? How do I express my wishes to the GM but roleplay accordingly in front of my fellow adventurers? Should the GM be asking more questions/giving more pauses for us to act/roleplay? Should I just trust that my fellow adventurers understand the difference between my intent with the GM and what they understand as a PC and just speak up?
I'm having a hard time understanding these questions. Roleplay is the game. Even when you are rolling in combat or skill checks, you are roleplaying ("I charge forwards and hit it with my sword" is a different action fitting a different role than "I ready my weapon and wait for it to advance"). I'm also not sure why you're communicating differently with the GM & players unless you're keeping important secrets from the rest of the group (which is fine but maybe a bit tricky for beginners).
If you feel like you are not getting a chance to react to events you are present for, let the GM know that you are new to this and need a moment to decide what your course of action will be.
However, in the scenario above it seems the problem was not that you didn't get a chance to roleplay, but that you decided the best role to play was one in which your character went off and did their own thing. This is known as "splitting the party" and it's generally considered a bad idea, especially for new characters. I would recommend coming up with reasons why your character would not want to do this. For example, if they're suspicious, they might be worried about walking into a trap alone - thus they'd be more likely to find a hidden vantage point within view of the festival where they could observe proceedings than to wander off to the other end of town. By finding a spot on a rooftop, for example, you would probably have been able to spot attacks coming but still been able to participate in the fight.
I'm having a hard time understanding these questions. Roleplay is the game. Even when you are rolling in combat or skill checks, you are roleplaying ("I charge forwards and hit it with my sword" is a different action fitting a different role than "I ready my weapon and wait for it to advance").If you feel like you are not getting a chance to react to events you are present for, let the GM know that you are new to this and need a moment to decide what your course of action will be.
However, in the scenario above it seems the problem was not that you didn't get a chance to roleplay, but that you decided the best role to play was one in which your character went off and did their own thing. This is known as "splitting the party" and it's generally considered a bad idea, especially for new characters. I would recommend coming up with reasons why your character would not want to do this. For example, if they're suspicious, they might be worried about walking into a trap alone - thus they'd be more likely to find a hidden vantage point within view of the festival where they could observe proceedings than to wander off to the other end of town. By finding a spot on a rooftop, for example, you would probably have been able to spot attacks coming but still been able to participate in the fight.
Good points Weirdo. You're right in that I "split" the party and much of my loss of XP is my own fault. I completely understand that. And I really like the idea of taking a post up on top of a rooftop. I'll have to try that!
I didn't make this clear, but we are all new to Pathfinder (and roleplaying) including the GM. You might be confused by my questions because a lot of what we are doing is just reacting to what the GM tells us. We aren't very experienced at roleplaying the actions that you described.
That said, I have a noob question: how would I roleplay the repositioning on top of a roof? Is it as easy as expressing the lie to my fellow adventurers and the GM then following it up with a declaration that I'm taking a position on the roof?
My hesitation for this comes from the people I'm playing with and their reactions to whenever I don't do something "straight forward." Since we are all new to PF, I find that we are playing it pretty linear without much imagination. It's a linear as the GM telling us "there's a disturbance over there," and we all move in that direction. I want to spice things up a bit and try things outside the box.
My questions are asking how do I roleplay this without upsetting my GM and my fellow players. Do I have to express my motive behind all my roleplaying decisions?
Lastly, just to clarify the town square example I gave: I excused myself from the town square saying to my party that I had to go back to my inn for something I had forgotten (which was the lie). I never expressed what my covert action was because I thought I would have been given a chance to reposition myself before the fight broke out. Instead, after my GM had finished explaining the next actions leading up to the goblin attack, he told me I was at the inn on the other side of town.
Is this normal? Did I just goof? How frequently should I expect to be given chances to react? If I find that the GM misunderstood my intention (or I never expressed my intent *cough* *cough*), what is the best way to correct this or politely interrupt?
Thanks again!
Hello Dr.
I think the core of the problem is right here.
<snip>...I knew something wasn't right and since my character is naturally distrusting I made up a lie to get away from my fellow adventurers and tried to shrink into the shadows.
The problem arises in that I roleplayed my way out of the town center, and before I knew it, the GM had me placed on the complete opposite side of town when the fight broke out...<snip>
Lack of communication.
How does moving "into the shadows" get your PC out of the action? More to the point - How does your PC end up on the other side of town and you don't know that until all heck breaks loose?
Hi Quark Blast,
I think moving into the shadows is just my use of flowery language. I just wanted to get out of the crowd.
I ended up on the other side because I fabricated a story that required that I went back to our inn (on the other side of town). I never declared my actual intent, which is totally my fault. I had thought I was going to get another chance to change things before the fight. Before I knew it, the GM said I was at the inn.
Is this normal? Any advice on how to correct a roleplaying mistake?
Without having heard exactly what was said by whom it's impossible to be certain what went wrong, but it was probably just miscommunication; what the GM thought your character was doing didn't match what you wanted your character to be doing. Anytime you're moving around without plotting it on a map, you need to make very sure you both understand what's going on. Don't be afraid to ask somebody to repeat back what they think you said, or to do that yourself if they're describing something.
Also, passing notes to the GM is a time honored way of doing things without letting the rest of the party know what you're up to.
Thanks JoeJ. I'll have to remember to pass notes to my GM. That's great advice! Does it work with PC's too?
So, you told your GM you were going back to the inn, and then you were upset when he placed you back at the inn?
If you weren't going back to the inn, you have to tell the GM what you're doing. Remember, the GM is god, he has to know where everyone is at all times. There is no such thing as "keeping secrets from the GM", except perhaps regarding future plans.
So yeah, just tell him what you're doing. If you don't tell him what you're doing, how is he supposed to know what you're doing?
So, you told your GM you were going back to the inn, and then you were upset when he placed you back at the inn?
If you weren't going back to the inn, you have to tell the GM what you're doing. Remember, the GM is god, he has to know where everyone is at all times. There is no such thing as "keeping secrets from the GM", except perhaps regarding future plans.
So yeah, just tell him what you're doing. If you don't tell him what you're doing, how is he supposed to know what you're doing?
Thanks RumpinRufus. Since I'm new, it's a good reminder! Any advice for correcting roleplaying mistakes for a newb besides just, "tough cookies?"
Well, you can explain to your GM what you really wanted to do, and maybe he'll allow you to end up somewhere else. And, if he makes assumptions about where you are or what you do, it's fair to say "actually I'm here, and I'm doing this."
Just be careful, because if you make a habit of saying "I'm going here" and then decide that when the action breaks out, you wanted to be somewhere else, that is going to come across as shifty.
RumpinRufus,
I agree with the fact that it would be shifty. That's especially why I felt bad to contradict my GM. I didn't want to come across as a bad sport.
JoeJ, is there any circumstance when passing notes between PC's is beneficial or even allowed? Since I'm new, I can't really think of a situation when this would be good except for strategy reasons maybe.
Also, can anyone answer my question newb questions about the rooftop example? Is it best (for clarity during roleplaying) to just tell everyone one thing then point blank tell them its a lie by declaring what my real actions are? Is passing notes the best way to do this?
Also, do you find that fellow players don't normally like this kind of attitude?
The important thing to understand is the difference between in-character (IC) and out-of-character (OOC), and the dreaded collision of the two (metagaming.)
When you tell everyone "I'm going to the inn", that is IC, because it's something your PC is telling the other PCs. When you then tell them "but I'm really going to hide on the roof" that is OOC, because the other characters don't know about it, even if the players know about it. Then, you have to assume that the other players will act in good faith and act as if their characters don't know you were lying. If they use OOC knowledge (or "player knowledge") and act as if they know it IC ("character knowledge"), that is metagaming and should be frowned upon.
As far as getting on the roof, just tell the GM "I want to climb up a nearby roof where I can keep an eye on [X]." And then, he will decide how that will be done, probably involving a Climb check to get on the roof, and a Stealth check if you're trying to be discreet about it.
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Hi, welcome.
From the sounds of things nobody but you knew what your character was doing so I don't think you can really blame them. Next time get some scratch paper of some type and pass the GM a note. Tell everyone that your character is heading back to the inn. On the note card tell the GM what your character is actually doing. For example, hiding and looking out for anything suspicious. That way you can keep a secret from the players and let the GM in on what is really happening.
Couple more things, you should probably pick and choose good times to do this. If you pass notes the other players are bound to think something is up. They may just let things fall as they may, or they might start metagaming saying "here we go again!" You should probably suggest to the entire table that everyone get used to passing notes because it can add to your game.
You have a newbie table so you are going to have some growing pains as you get acquainted to each other's play style. The note issue might not go over well or even be necessary. One of my tables just announces to the table out of character that they want their character to do something secretive. The other players then know what is going on but their characters don't so they play it out that way.
Some might not like that because either it ruins the surprise or they cant help but metagame after the info has been revealed. Some folks prefer to stay in first person no matter what. Each table is different and I think you need to explore the options available to you. It starts by having the discussion though so make sure you take a few min next session to talk play style.
Good luck!
The important thing to understand is the difference between in-character (IC) and out-of-character (OOC), and the dreaded collision of the two (metagaming.)
When you tell everyone "I'm going to the inn", that is IC, because it's something your PC is telling the other PCs. When you then tell them "but I'm really going to hide on the roof" that is OOC, because the other characters don't know about it, even if the players know about it. Then, you have to assume that the other players will act in good faith and act as if their characters don't know you were lying. If they use OOC knowledge (or "player knowledge") and act as if they know it IC ("character knowledge"), that is metagaming and should be frowned upon.
As far as getting on the roof, just tell the GM "I want to climb up a nearby roof where I can keep an eye on [X]." And then, he will decide how that will be done, probably involving a Climb check to get on the roof, and a Stealth check if you're trying to be discreet about it.
Thanks again RumpinRufus.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you describe the difference between IC and OOC and metagaming. Since I'm still learning how to roleplay, I felt that in the town square scenario I wasn't allowed to make my OOC intent known. Now I know that I can, and should!
Not to toot my own horn, but I think I have a better grasp of the differences between IC and OOC than the other PC's. Any advice on how to handle metagaming? Should I have a discussion with my GM and allow him to police any metagaming instead of trying to do politely do it myself?
Thanks all
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Some might not like that because either it ruins the surprise or they cant help but metagame after the info has been revealed. Some folks prefer to stay in first person no matter what. Each table is different and I think you need to explore the options available to you. It starts by having the discussion though so make sure you take a few min next session to talk play style.
Good luck!
Thanks so much for the friendly advice Pan. I agree that this is a discussion we have to have and making the difference clear between IC and OOC and metagaming as RumpinRufus suggests.
We're new, what can I say!
Have you led many new player campaigns? Do you find that this is common, or that players tend to frown upon clandestine actions from players?
Anyone else have roleplaying tips?
Have you led many new player campaigns? Do you find that this is common, or that players tend to frown upon clandestine actions from players?
Anyone else have roleplaying tips?
I find with new players their opinion of other players performing clandestine actions is formed from the actions of the first few sneaky type character they play with.
If for instance while the party is busy chatting with the duke, the rogue sneaks off scopes out his manor, discovers the slave ring operating in the basement and informs the party in a timely manner, then they'll learn to love sneaky characters.
On the other hand if you're using your sleight of hand to pocket things like a klepto, then using your bluff to blame it on the fighter they'll learn to hate sneaky characters.
So basically I recommend being a sneak to the best of your sneaky ability, but be a team playing sneak.
- Torger
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So basically I recommend being a sneak to the best of your sneaky ability, but be a team playing sneak.
- Torger
HAHA. Well described. I'll definitely keep this in mind. I think my character is more inclined towards a "team playing sneak," as you put it.
As an exercise in imagination (and for someone who likes covert characters), what's one of the best ways for the Rogue to sneak away in the Duke scenario you painted above? Does the Rogue say, "look over there," and then she sneaks away? Is it best for her to be stealthed beforehand as the rest of the party goes in to talk to the Duke? Do you have a third idea in mind?
JoeJ,
Thanks for those ideas! I'll ask my GM but I doubt he will have any problem since, as you put it, there's nothing our characters can really do that the GM doesn't know about.
Thanks again!
As an exercise in imagination (and for someone who likes covert characters), what's one of the best ways for the Rogue to sneak away in the Duke scenario you painted above? Does the Rogue say, "look over there," and then she sneaks away? Is it best for her to be stealthed beforehand as the rest of the party goes in to talk to the Duke? Do you have a third idea in mind?
Don't go to the chat with the duke in the first place, when the party gets invited shadow them instead.
A lot of it will come down to table/DM variation, stealth is a massively controversial skill regarding how it works and how it's supposed to work. A quick forum search for stealth will leave your head spinning I'm afraid.
I recommend having a discussion with the DM proposing scenarios involving stealth and coming to a reasonable mutual understanding of how the skill works.
For instance if I were running the hypothetical "chat with the duke" and the rogue said "I wait till he's not really paying attention to us then I try to sneak away" I'd give him a perception check to find the right moment and a stealth check to get away unseen.
That's vastly different from how the rule book models it, but what he's trying seems reasonable so I'd give him a chance.
- Torger
Great, thanks Torger. Discussion with the GM it is. . .
Usually what I do is proudly declare to the players and my Gm.
'I'm going to go check out that pie cart. Be right back.'
In the next breath: "Hey guys, roll a Sense Motive check. My bluff is 22.
Great, thanks Torger. Discussion with the GM it is. . .
No problem, glad I could help.
and welcome to the game :D
- Torger
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Everybody was new at some point! The reason I gave you several options in my post is due to such a variance of play from one table to the next. We have been at it for a decade and we still learn new tips and tricks all the time. Key is to make sure everyone discusses what they like and don't. Create an environment that is comfortable for new techniques and suggestions.
One really interesting element is Pathfinder society. PFS is a mixed bag of experience and you could learn a whole lot to bring back your table. Its low commitment so you can just go when you have the free time to do so. Not only is it a great way to pick up on style variance and learn the game, but you get to meet new players all the time!
So yes its quite common to have a few hiccups here and there. We still have them after so many years. I don't really think you ever reach a completely proficient level. Keep that in mind as I said make sure everyone talks about what is working and what doesn't.
Pan,
I have actually been looking into PFS to do exactly that: get more experience! So it seems we're in agreement.
Any advice on how to get started on PFS? I looked around on the interwebs for a PFS close to me and didn't find one that was closer than 30 miles to where I live (and I live in a pretty big city). Seems like there are online PFS's but that they only happen once or twice a year? Do I have this right? Let me know.
Thanks again!
PFS is definitely a great way to get experience with the system. Depending on how your particular metro operates, you might need to stop in at a game store and ask around to figure out if there are any closer PFS games. Even if you aren't able to play, it can be a good idea to go to a game just to observe and chat with more experienced players. We had a lively discussion last night about reach weapons at my local shop that clarified a lot of different things for some experienced players.
Regarding some of your earlier points about lost time calculating DCs and such, here are some recommendations:
-If it's a common situation, write down the modifiers. Power Attack, for example, can have its own line on your Attack section of the character sheet. For a lot of different sheets, you'll find that there are areas specifically designed for tracking things like spell DCs that are on the spell page.
-Print off relevant pages that you need to reference. If an ability is too long to write down, print it off. If you use spells, use a spell card generator, like Perram's Spellbook.
-Take some time before the session to re-read anything you're hazy on and to refamiliarize yourself with your character. I recommend 5-10 minutes even if you're comfortable with what the character does. This helps train your eyes to look at the right section of the character sheet and can remind you of modifiers you might otherwise forget.
Serisan,
Sounds like you have a lively and interesting PFS at your local game store. I've heard of a close game store that runs a PFS, so I'll have to look into it.
And thanks for the tips for picking up the pace in combat. I've actually looked into that separately since this thread was more about roleplaying and IC vs OOC (although I couldn't verbalize it correctly at the beginning).
I've gotten some really great tips on how to RP, and I realize that I just need to be more vocal about what my plans are, even if I have to explicitly say, "OOC."
Thanks all