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The Companion Book on Taldor states that only Taldor’s royalty and senatorial classes are known as “the bearded.” The Senatorial Class is described as "hereditary members of Taldor’s senate, the governors of Taldor’s prefectures, and various heads of the bureaucracy."
The section on the Unbearded closes with "Taldor’s military offers such an avenue to advancement, and because of that the Taldan Horse, Taldan Phalanx, and Imperial Navy are loyal and strong, and fight hard for the empire—if only to gain the notice of their commanders and receive a promotion to the ranks of the bearded."
In the following section on the Military, The Taldan Horse section states that, "The horse legions are comprised entirely of heavily armed and armored knights, led by a knight-captain" Ergo a Knight is not a commander but rather a specialized solider. I would go so far to say that even a Knight-Captain isn't a commander, rather they are a mid-level field officer.
All this leads one to infer that in Taldor the word "Knight" is a military rank and not a social rank. Becoming a knight can set a person on the path to becoming one of the "breaded" but does not make them one in and of itself.
That's just my 2cp and my interpretation of what's written.
I think you could go two ways with this. As described, the Taldan Horse sounds a whole heck of a lot like the Roman equites, even down to having Taldan knights leading units of Taldan Phalanx, as equites served as the senior officers of the Roman legions.
While the original equites were probably exclusively members of the Roman patrician class (and thus almost certainly bearded by Taldan standards), the pressing need for more heavy cavalry resulted in wealthy property owners joining while the "true" equites made up an increasingly small percentage of the Roman cavalry, especially since they also had to serve as the senior officers of a growing number of legions. Whether these wealthy property owners that bulked up the cavalry would be considered bearded by Taldan standards is uncertain.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Taldan knights are comprised of a mixture of bearded and unbearded, with the senior officer corps of both the Horse and Phalanx being almost exclusively bearded. A wealthy unbearded would join the Horse to hopefully gain glory or recognition and be elevated to the ranks of the bearded. A young bearded would probably join the Horse as a matter of course, sort of paying his dues before going on to bigger and better things as an officer or politician.
Of course, this whole Roman military structure clashes with the term "knight" and all the feudal vassalage baggage that comes with it. If you lean more towards a feudal Taldor than an Imperial Taldor, a knight is probably not a noble (bearded) until he owns some amount of land, even if only as a vassal. If he is knighted but doesn't own land, I would be more inclined to view him as unbearded.
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I think the bearded are beyond all that demeaning military service. They are the elite of the Empire. They drink, eat, mingle, debate, contribute to policy development... they are politicians through and through. Maybe ex-military general can become bearded by gaining peerage or senatorial / ambassador assignment? but until he takes that uniform off, I don't see him sporting that ZZ top thing around...
I don't meant to do thread necromancy, but I've a question regarding Taldan Knights and this seemed like the appropriate place for it.
I'm about to Gm the module The Dragon's Demand, and one of the rewards at the end of the module is
'Lady Origena knights the PCs as well, elevating them into the aristocracy of Taldor and granting each of them the title of Lady or Sir.'
My question is, what does this really give the PCs? Are there any special considerations? As this type of gift seems like a title, not a military rank, they don't have to join the Taldan military, so would they be bearded/unbeared? Would they then be granted land? Exempt from some taxes?
I'd like to develop this somewhat and any advise would be appreciated.
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My take: not bearded, honorary title only, no land, no nothing. They get occasional special access to certain events that are normally restricted to nobles or court officials. They are now (secretly) registered on a list of "capable citizens that must be monitored" and occasionally they are secretly monitored by the Lion Blades (either due to their activities or as part of a random monitoring program)
Edit: the knighting would mean more if the PC is an existing noble of Taldor or if his parents are noble, and could be used as a "tick in the box" requisite for future greater peerage
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Addendum: please note that the above list only applies to PCs native to Taldor... if some members of the party are visiting from outside countries, they get registered on a "foreigners of interest" list (with the same monitoring as "capable citizens" list, but with potential infinite prison sentence if they get caught doing something - perhaps even expatriation / ransom if Taldor wants to send a message to the PC's nation, and if they are done extracting info from the said PC)
I'd like to be able to use this 'knighthood' as a reward, such as it was intended in the module. You bring forward some good plot twist elements later in my campaign that I could use, however I would like this title to give them some boons, if even minor to moderate ones.
Each PC so far is not a native of Taldor. Any ideas?
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Not a native of Taldor? then knighthoods would be VERY honorific methinks... if some PCs are *truly* touched by the grace of Taldor, they could use that boon to gain Taldan citizenship easily (i.e. the knighthood is effectively the highest recommendation one can get to ease the immigration process)
Only those who seek citizenship (and make it a grueling bureaucratic experience! lol) and successfully obtain it should gain access to peerage via this knighthood... methinks they would have to buy a major estate to even get on the "radar" of nobility, a big splashy display of money, banquets with invites to all major nobles in the area with lots of mingling and diplomacy checks should do the trick... but it won't be an overnight thing and could represent a big time investment for that PC. You could just fade out and fade in with a statement "one year later, you stand on the glorious lawn of your country estate; your butler brings you a note on a filigreed cushion ..." and restart the home campaign that way.
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for more simple boons without all the hassles of actually becoming noble, use the standard stuff they give in Pathfinder Society modules; stuff like "+1 to diplomacy, bluff and perform checks when dealing with Taldan nobility" usable five times or as a single one shot +4 bonus or as a re-roll usable twice?
So, knighthood in Taldor is a little weird because Taldor is not really a classically feudal "nation". Its more like an empire akin to the East Roman Empire of real world history. Knighthood will probably mean different things depending on which side (feudal or imperial) you decide to shade Taldor towards.
If feudal, than the bestowing of knighthood would mean that the person is elevated to the class of noble-warriors. I would say this is enough to qualify as bearded for Taldor purposes. Nobles are generally jealous of their perogatives, however, and are unlikely to mint new knights without receiving something in return, typically an oath of fealty from the person to be knighted. Most new knights would not object to such an oath, since the new lord would also be obligated to provide the vassal knight with protection and material support, especially if the vassal knight did not own land himself.
Note that the feudal system was very tied up to land ownership. A grant of land was the means by which a knight supported himself and his family and a knight without land would generally be dependent on a lord to provide him with the necessary resources to maintain himself in a manner fitting his noble status in society. In Pathfinder, wealth (for PCs, anyway) is generally gained by going on grand adventures and murder-robbing the various monsters and brigands encountered. As such, I'm not sure a traditional feudal view really works with the Pathfinder set-up, at least as it pertains to PCs.
If Taldor is more imperial, knighthood is more likely an honorary title that would accord the holder more respect in Taldan society. It could possibly bestow bearded status, but that would depend on how important you think being bearded is in Taldan society. In feudal society, knighthood under an oath of fealty had a set of rights ascribed to it that were generally pretty beneficial. Such rights were not casually bestowed. In imperial Taldor, however, bearded may just be a checkbox that opens up access to certain public offices, rather than a title with any inherent rights ascribed to it. If this is the case, than the bearded condition might be more freely given.
I'm nearing the same stage in Dragon's Demand as Gromnar is at and struggling with the same questions regarding knighthood in Taldor. I even wonder if Lady Devy has the authority to make someone a Knight of Taldor? Somehow, I doubt it. She can probably grant them land and title over a portion of her barony, but would likely need to petition the Grand Prince to grant the PCs the title of Knight of Taldor. And while Lady Devy herself may currently be a member of the "bearded" class, the name of the class itself strongly suggests a stratified and sexist class system that would limit the influence and power of women (i.e., women might have land, titles and some political influence… but overtly are likely deemed to be "inferior" to male rulers… that's just my take on Taldor's cultural and political system, based on the source material I've read, but I'm open to other suggestions/interpretations).
As for the distinction between feudal and imperial Taldor… I'm not an expert on medieval titles, class or societal structures… but is it possible that Taldor was a feudal state before it grew into an empire, and has been "regressing" to its feudal state with the decline of its empire? Or maybe some lords and parts of the country have always maintained a feudal society, while other parts have not? Would such even be possible? The fact that Lady Devy rules over a barony implies a feudal society… but then, how closely did the author and editors of The Dragon's Demand look at such things to make sure they were consistent with the publishers long term vision of Taldor?
I have been running the Barony of Belhaim as if it were based on a manorial system (Expeditious Retreat Press' A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe has been a very helpful source for doing this) and feudal society… and Devy Manor is about to collapse due to political/family infighting and a vulnerable economic position (the Canteclure family no longer providing support to the Devy family; the Devy family is deep in debt to the Canteclures, the Crown, and other noble families and lenders; the Wildwood Treaty is inhibiting the expansion of resource extraction and other activities aimed at economic growth; trade is largely bypassing the village as merchants find it safer to travel the Verduran Fork and Sellen Rivers by boat and have little incentive to go out of their way to stop in Belhaim, and few people/merchants use Devy Road to travel to revolution-wracked Galt; exporting goods from Belhaim is a risky and time-consuming endeavour with limited profitability; lumber exports from Wispil to Cassomir largely bypass Belhaim; etc.).
As you can see, I'm laying the groundwork for socio-political and political-economic plot hooks for the PCs to pursue once the main adventure is complete, should they wish to follow those hooks (which would bring to the fore what I perceive is the Game of Thrones theme that underlies Taldor).
Despite my efforts, I still find the socio-political structure of Taldor implied in Taldor: Echoes of Glory confusing, and the continued existence of an isolated village the size of Belhaim, with the range of professions and businesses it has, defies logic (even its own "fantasy-based" logic).
And before anyone feels the need to bring it up… I realize that this is a fictional fantasy world not rooted in any of our real world's historical societies, and that I am free to regard/disregard Paizo's source material as I see fit, to create my own solutions (as I have been doing) etc. etc.
Would still welcome other or more detailed perspectives on the question of Taldor as a feudal vs. imperial society, the power (or lack thereof) of noble women, who can bestow knighthoods in Taldor and what obligations and benefits that title carries, etc.
I think this discussion was off to a good start and hope to see it go on a bit longer.
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Some good points from everyone. I think I'm going to go with a mix of feudal and imperial. Lady Devy will grant the PCs these titles as per her authority, however the title is more honorific that comes with several perks, yet the PCs will have to work harder after the Dragon's Demand to really make use of it.
My home game makes use of bonus material, and I'll be granting the PCs the Taldan Knight feat as a bonus feat after being knighted. In addition, the more RP-focused elements of the title will include:
- Lower taxes, should the PCs make Belhaim/Taldor their home
- Be considered 'upper class' in remote Belhaim, 'middle class' in the rest of Taldor
- Be given responsibility of revitalizing the town (should they choose to)
- Be allowed to purchase Hunclay's manor for the auction
- If petitioned, restore the Monastery in the environs for their own uses (must be approved by Taldor and benefit the town in some way)
- The more the PCs do to help Belhaim as a settlement, the more the knighthood is used as a spring-board to actual influence and political power
And, the more I think of it, the tile of knight in Belhaim or the outskirts of Taldor in general, is probably an honorific one. Belhaim mentions several aristocrats or people with 'Sir' or 'Lady' as an NPC, yet the town has no true army or knights in shining armor that protect it.
In the major areas of Taldor, I would assume that the 'knight' status is very much along the lines of an equal mix of feudal and imperial; the soldier in heavy armor, with lance/horse (regardless of actual skill as knight), who has some minor perks as a low-level aristocrat. The further one gets from the major population centres where such armor/weapons/material and people are available, the more the title becomes honorific than militarily practical.
That's at least my thoughts on it.
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although a knight can be a landed noble, he is not always such.
When a lord or sovereign dubbed a knight he could also grant him land and titles. But not always.
A landed knight had additional responsibilities, like supplying soldiers, and agricultural tares from the land he was granted lordship over.
a landless knight (errant) had no such additional responsibilities and technically was not beholden to any such lord.
It was common for powerful such men that the lord was knighting (especially those the lord was wary of) to be actually granted lands nd titles, because the lord would have greater power over the knight and the knight would have something to lose if he angered the lord.
Thus is basically the difference between a Samurai and Ronn as well.
No one WANTED there to be Ronins running about, skilled knights with no responsibility or checks and balances? hell no!
It's far more likely PCs would get lands and titles, if only so the politicians can keep their thumb on them.
Correction to my previous post.
Spoiler to hide things in case some of my players should stumble across this thread...
I meant to say that IMC, Lady Devy is indebted to the remainder of the Devy family (with the bulk of its estates and holdings somewhere further south in Taldor), a family which she married into (I don't think it would make much sense for Devy Manor to be indebted to the Canteclures… if any Canteclures still live in Taldor). IMC, the remainder of the Devy family want to reclaim Belhaim from Origena (whom they deem responsible for the death of her husband, rightly or wrongly), and while Origena's husband was alive, the Devys of Belhaim borrowed a great deal from the broader family to keep the barony and town afloat given restrictions on the town's growth and industry imposed via the Wildwood Treaty.
I intend to have Lady Devy look to Andoran for potential allies that could help her revive the barony's fortunes… a dangerous gambit that could draw the ire of the Grand Prince, and which could result either in Belhaim declaring independence from Taldor (making the Treaty of the Wildwood void, and thus angering the druids)… or the Barony being crushed by imperial forces and turned over to a "more deserving" family (the same way the barony ended up in the hands of the Devy family after the Canteclure rebellion was put down).
Just a few more seeds for political intrigue and potential adventure hooks…
I had also thought of the PCs taking over Hunclay's manor, and hope they will bid on it (opening bid according to the module is 2500 g.p. -- a steal! -- and since it's not on the list of auction lots, it does not appear that anyone else is interested in acquiring it. Makes sense… given the village's isolated location and the manor's history (devils, demons and other outsiders bound in the cellars), it's like the medieval fantasy version of that "creepy house where the double murders occurred" that no one wants to buy. :-)
I hadn't thought of them being given permission to restore the monastery (if they petition to do so), but that would be perfectly in keeping with the expectations placed on landed knights with feudal obligations… so I really like the idea!!! Thanks, Gromnar.
I have a feeling, though, that my players' PCs may not be the kind to want to accept a knighthood and all the responsibilities it would entail… they may turn down that "reward." We'll see how it plays out...
My game has not yet started, though I'm preparing for the long haul, and I'll share with you TwiceBorn how I plan on handling some of the Dragon's Demand's elements, incase they may be helpful for you.
To prevent any of my players froms snooping:
Reason for this is the module aftermath (Module spoilers ahead). I know my PCs will want to develop Belhaim as their home. In the module, it states that many in the town want to drain the dragonfen for development, but its always been deemed too costly or prohibtive. That's probably due to the Wildwood Treaty and the remoteness/lack of funds in the settlement.
In my game, if the PCs play their cards right, they could go through with this provided they have high enough faction in all three (Green Faith, Shelyn and Abadar). If they saved the druid's wife and such, they'll have him in their pocket to help them convince the Wildwood Lodge to allow it, provided effort is made to minmize damage to the woods. This is the political action they can do in the game; satsisfy all three factions to
The PCs get an absurd amount of treasure in this game which they can put towards the development. Now, I like your idea of expanding the Devy's political climate, though I know my PCs would be bored with that route. Instead, I'll have the Devy's look to make the PCs their strong allies with the funds they're gaining are enough to have them be a serious ally or enemy; if she can make the PCs knights beholden to her, she gains strong allies to help revitaltize her town. So its in her best interests to help the PCs out as time goes on.
I do want the PCs to be able to take the monastary for their own, but that's because I'm planning on going the dark tapestry route with my game. After the dragon's demand and the PCs spend soem time in the area making their mark, I'll have them do the Doom Comes to Dustpawn module and bring both Dustpawn and Belhaim under their thumb.
As for your idea with Andoran, I absolutely love Andoran more than Taldor, though I personally don't see Lady Devy trying to leave Taldor for Andoran...they don't accept nobles, afterall, so her way of life is gone if she goes there. It also marks her as a traitor like the Canteclures, and it was her own relative that help put down that seditious family. Taldar would probably crush the town for good, and Andoran won't risk a war for that.
If the PCs could instead balance out the factions and make each happy to to do something with the dragonfen, you've got a new source of income for the town, making it larger and thus increasing Lady Devy's own wealth, who in turn would help the PCs out, though that's my take on it. :)
Actually, I've had another thought that may help both of our games, TwiceBorn. Looking at the timeline, it seems Belhaim was founded roughly around 3676 AR, while the Treaty of the Wildwood began roughly in 3841 AR, a difference of 165 years.
As this happened many years before the Treaty of the Wildwood, it could be argued that Belhaim and its enviorns are not exactly part of the Treaty of the Wildwood; the forest beyond its borders may fall directly to the druids, but the area assigned to Belhaim's baroness before that treaty is probably still a direct part of the Taldan Empire, and not part of the semi-autonomous prefecture that the druids control.
That's not to say that the druids don't have influence in the town; just look at the factions and its resident druid, but Belhaim could probably get away with developing the Dragonfen without the druids officially able to bat an eyelash. They'd probably be upset and perhaps try to sabotage such work, but they probably won't be able to stop it via legal means. Still, gaining their co-operation would be a good idea for all involved, if the PCs and the town took that route.
I'd say the main reasons for the lack of development is the infighting between the factions:
Abadarians: Advance civilization, develop the town, have it prosper.
Shelynites: Keep the status quo; things are quiet and happy.
Green Faith: Regress to a simpler way; rely more on nature, don't take what you don't need; be one with the Green.
If the PCs successfully convince the three factions to agree with some sort of expansion, the possibilities are endless. Them being knighted (even with just the title), would help them stake that claim.
Gromnar:
I like what you intend to do with the factions. The PCs in my group include one Abadaran, and 2.5 Shelynites… so they're in a good position to have productive cooperative relations with the factions, which is only going to improve if they succeed in saving Rima Kell (they've already saved Bophre Malak and slain the dire wolf that was preying on the sheep at the Abrassus Ranch, have given money to and hired on a temporary basis Eudomas Biton's older children, and have made brisk business with Big Bull Baccus, so they're quickly earning the good will of many members of the Green Faith.
I actually think that the Wildwood Treaty was imposed on Belhaim after the fact -- I think the Crown felt they had more to gain by giving the druids the whole forest to sweeten the pot in exchange for a steady supply of blackwood for the imperial shipyards in Cassomir. My reading of the write-up of the Verduran Forest in Taldor: Echoes of Glory (pp. 7-8) make it sound like the entire forest -- north and south of the Verduran Fork (and Belhaim is north of the river, so clearly in the Verduran Forest proper if one were to argue that the woods south of the river are not part of the Verduran Forest/Wildood Treaty) -- is under druidic rule save for the Isle of Arenway and the Verduran Fork itself. Sounds to me like Belhaim was thrown under the bus, so to speak (I realize that Belhaim probably had not even been conceived by Paizo when Taldor: EoG was published). And according to that same entry in Taldor: EoG, aside from Wispil (apparently built by gnomes under the watchful eye of the druids sometime after the signing of the treaty), "the only other permanent settlement in the Verduran Forest is the unnamed River Guard harbour on the Isle of Arenway." This further suggests to me that the village and barony are deemed to be insignificant and dwindling to the point that the druids (and Crown?) do not expect them to remain much longer.
I also find it telling that in the description of Belhaim (Dragon's Demand, p. 60), the town is described as being "in large part self-sufficient," and that "its main commodities are pottery and fish, but the town does not receive enough trade to garner much renown from these industries." If Belhaim were not subject to the Wildwood Treaty, then I imagine that lumber exports would be the village's leading industry… but IMO it is, which is why it is in such bad shape economically and dependent on fish and pottery (!) as its main commodities. IMC, Belhaim has never been ruled by a Shelynite or member of the Green Faith… so nothing but the Wildwood Treaty can explain to me satisfactorily why lumber/forestry never would have become the town's main industry (Abadaran nobles, in particular, should be all in favour of promoting the logging industry, even if it creates conflict with some of the other factions in the village).
IMC, Lady Devy is the black sheep of the Devy family and no longer has the financial support of the broader family, and has had to go into debt to various parties in order to keep the village/barony alive (she's having difficulty paying the PCs as it is). I think she might be willing to make a deal with factions in Andoran in order to secure more loans/investments to prop up the barony. Given that Belhaim would at the moment be dead weight for any noble family, she is having trouble finding another Taldan family that would want to have their daughter marry her son, Arnholde. Yet given that loggers in Andoran have already logged much of their portion of the Verduran Forest (see Taldor: EoG, p. 8), some ambitious Andoren logger baron may be interested in having one of his daughters marry Arnholde Devy, in order to advance a claim to the lands of the barony if a future opportunity should present itself (e.g., Arnholde dies without descendants)… and/or to begin logging operations ("wood poaching?" ;-) in defiance of the Wildwood Treaty. Enter Ulfas Blust, logging magnate from nearby Bellis in Andoran, who will be at the auction in Belhaim with counsellor Elyin Ursage (see Realm of the Fellnight Queen, p. 4)… and Blust will take that opportunity to discuss with Lady Devy a potential marriage arrangement between his daughter and her son, Arnholde. Lady Devy will be receptive to the idea, because she fears that her barony and her son's birthright will soon be lost if she does not get financial support from somewhere… and IMC, she is open to the unorthodox values and forms of government coming out of Andoran, and views them as possibly the best chance for Arnholde to keep control of the Devy barony and to gain status and influence in the long term through new business and wealth (as his name and "fortune" would otherwise fade). Bitter at the way the other Devys and the Crown (and druids) have thrown her barony under the bus, Lady Devy would be only to happy to set such plans in motions by having her son secretly wed the daughter of a wealthy Andoren businessman. Conversely, if the PCs were able to help her influence the Crown, or perhaps more importantly, the Wildwood Lodge to lift their logging restrictions and growth restrictions (a very contentious subject that the druids are not likely to relent on, however much Azmur Kell may attempt to intercede on Belhaim's behalf), then Lady Devy might not feel the need to pursue an agreement with Blust.
The Andoren government (and Taldan crown) would probably be unaware of this arrangement if it were indeed made, at least in the short term. But if a time came when the title to the barony was contested, and given the key natural resources (shipbuilding materials), territory, political boundaries/influence (chance to liberate more Taldan unbearded peasants from their yokes!), and wealth at stake, the conflict could escalate to a point where military tensions could flare up between both countries (to the delight of Qadira?).
By having Blust and Ursage attend the auction in Belhaim, I am also creating an opportunity for Ursage to help the PCs defeat Aeteperax (I would make him a level 5 ranger instead of level 7, and given that he would be trapped in the town when the dragon makes his demand… he would be open to assisting the PCs in taking down the dragon). If the PCs and Ursage defeat Aeteperax, I expect that a new friendship would develop between them, which would result in the PCs being invited to his wedding in several weeks time in Bellis… And given that Bellis is on the most direct route to Dustpawn (I too have placed clues in Hunclay's Manor that will hopefully serve as hooks for the PCs to follow that would connect Dragon's Demand to Doom Comes to Dustpawn), this would be a perfect opportunity to first play Realm of the Fellnight Queen before moving on to Doom Comes to Dustpawn.
So there you have it… my current campaign outline…
By the way, I'm not trying to convince you that my interpretation of Belhaim's political-economic position and the motivations of Lady Devy is "the right one," or that it is better than yours. I'm just explaining the thought process I have followed and why my campaign background has led me to different conclusions, directions, etc., than yours when relying on the same source material (and while trying to adhere to "canon" as best I can). That's the beauty of RPGs, isn't it!
Great discussion and ideas!
I realize that we have derailed this thread somewhat… does anybody care?
Some great ideas there TwiceBorn. I fully understand your point of view and your campaign sounds very fun and detailed...that's the kind of game I really enjoy running and playing.
As for Bellis, my current campaign (not the one we're discussing) is running concrently with the one I'm now designing, and it used the Realm of the Fellnight Queen as a spring-board. Both my campaigns are running in the same game world, though Fellnight was done about a year or so ago (and expanded a lot after it was finished). The new PCs in the dragon's demand campaign I'm running are connected to the PCs in the other game; what those characters have created in Bellis exists as something accessible in Belhaim.
You're also right in the fact that we've derailed the thread a bit, so I'll get back on topic. I think playing the 'Taldan Knight' reward angle is good starting as an honorary title that gives several smaller perks; the PCs should really have to work in game (regardless if its the module or not, this works well for any game) to expand the title into actually being something worth it.
Ahaha! Glad im not the only one who is thinking about expanding on nobility after dragons demand lol. On phone at work but will link my thread when i get home about the ideas i have. Basically gonna continue the dragon hunting but throw my players into politics while its being done and eventually have them sqaure off against the prince/king at the end.
Ill link my thread when i get home and on my pc.
Gromnar,
Got your PM - thanks! Will try to reply tomorrow.
Gromnar and Redneckdevil -- maybe we should continue our Dragon's Demand discussion in a different thread that would also be easier for other DMs to identify, since we've gone on quite a tangent from the original thread?
I think we have alot of great ideas to share between us and the wider community. Maybe we could repost some of the posts we have made in this thread in the other thread?
Creative Director
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I'll just leave a post-script here to my original post.
The bearded/unbearded description has been retconned out, as described in Inner Sea Races and confirmed by James Jacobs.
It was a thing in the past, but today it's regarded by most folks as a quaint but weird old timer trait.
I think you could go two ways with this. As described, the Taldan Horse sounds a whole heck of a lot like the Roman equites, even down to having Taldan knights leading units of Taldan Phalanx, as equites served as the senior officers of the Roman legions.
While the original equites were probably exclusively members of the Roman patrician class (and thus almost certainly bearded by Taldan standards), the pressing need for more heavy cavalry resulted in wealthy property owners joining while the "true" equites made up an increasingly small percentage of the Roman cavalry, especially since they also had to serve as the senior officers of a growing number of legions. Whether these wealthy property owners that bulked up the cavalry would be considered bearded by Taldan standards is uncertain.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Taldan knights are comprised of a mixture of bearded and unbearded, with the senior officer corps of both the Horse and Phalanx being almost exclusively bearded. A wealthy unbearded would join the Horse to hopefully gain glory or recognition and be elevated to the ranks of the bearded. A young bearded would probably join the Horse as a matter of course, sort of paying his dues before going on to bigger and better things as an officer or politician.
Of course, this whole Roman military structure clashes with the term "knight" and all the feudal vassalage baggage that comes with it. If you lean more towards a feudal Taldor than an Imperial Taldor, a knight is probably not a noble (bearded) until he owns some amount of land, even if only as a vassal. If he is knighted but doesn't own land, I would be more inclined to view him as unbearded.
Actually the Ordo Equestris was composed by people RICH ENOUGH to buy themselves an horse and the equipment for fighting from its back thet WERE NOT SENATORS. This was codified during the republican era (before that "ĕquĕs" was just the name for a soldier who fought from horseback). The Ordo Equestris basically became the third social class of Roman's society. They were not patricians (nobles) but also not people without means of their own, the plebs. One could even argue they were a sort of "proto bourgeoisie", in a way.