TWF for a Rogue. Viable option or suicide?

[Kudaku]

Knowing the party composition would be interesting. If the party has a cheerleader bard or a buff-happy wizard, that solves a lot of problems for a rogue.

[Avoron]

Some of you keep insisting that two-weapon fighting rogues are unplayable. I however, have shown a perfectly playable example of a two-weapon fighting rogue. Two-weapon fighting and flurry of blows don't stack (flurry would be horrible anyway because you use your monk level as your base attack bonus). +27(normal)+27(off hand)+27(speed amulet of mighty fists)+22(BAB)+22(Improved Two-Weapon Fighting)+17(BAB)+17(Greater Two-Weapon Fighting).
The penalties for later attacks are bad, but you can switch them out for trip attacks with no penalty (forgive me if I'm misinterpreting the rules here). And those trips will provoke attacks of opportunity at your full base attack bonus.
You need to set up a flank by moving and taking a standard action attack (or trip attempt, which would work rather well, actually). But once you do that, the enemy can't move away without provoking an attack of opportunity, which you could use to trip. (tripping, yay!)
And this build still works well at earlier levels. At Rogue 2/Monk 1 (human) you can have your attacks and damage be completely Dex based, add Dex and Wisdom to AC, use Two-Weapon Fighting, and still have 2 feats to spend however you want.

P.S. Natural weapon fighting is what I used for the Vivisectionist/Rogue build I posted, and that works very well.

P.P.S. I know the Elf Barbarian thing was just an analogy, but I've built/seen in action a really nice Dex based Elf Urban Barbarian with an Elven Curve Blade.

[Avoron]

Sorry, miscalculated attacks. +25 is highest attack bonus. But still.

[Rynjin]

Flurry would be fine since you add your normal BaB as well (a Monk 1/Fighter 19 would have a BaB of 20 while Flurrying) but that's not the main point here.

+27/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17/+17 is terrible at level 20 (which is the only time you could get that many attacks).

It's especially horrible because you have no way to overcome DR above DR/Magic.

The average AC of a CR 20 enemy is around 36 (at the low end). You need a 9 to hit on your best attacks, and are probably dealing anywhere from 5-15 less damage on each hit than you should be because DR Silver, Cold Iron, Alignment, and Adamantine (or Fast Healing or Regeneration) are almost universal across enemies of that CR or above.

The only monsters in the Bestiary at CR 20 without them are Dragons (who have DR/Magic instead).

That's also ignoring the hilarity of trying to use Trip of all things at that level, especially with a 3/4 BaB character. Everything either flies, is gigantic and hard to affect with Combat Maneuvers, or both. That AC 36 often turns into a CMD 50+.

That's against a CR 20 creature, something you should be able to easily handle as a level 20 character.

And the problems he faces actually SURVIVING to level 20 are the main issue here.

All of this ignores the other, non to-hit/damage related issues of the Rogue, like saves. Fort and Will as weak saves is a death sentence when everyone and their grandma (especially their grandma) at higher levels has a Save or Suck of some kind based on those two saves.

Give me the whole build and I'll see if I can try to fix it to some semblance of workability, at a level other than 20. Assuming it's not just a generic Trip build with Rogue instead of another class.

Avoron wrote:

Sorry, miscalculated attacks. +25 is highest attack bonus. But still.

Hoo boy, that's even better.

[Grond]

Rynjin wrote:

Grond wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

There's a new Feat or two from the Monster Codex that makes Intimidate builds scary as all get out.

Really? Care to share for those who haven't gotten that yet?

Hurtful (Combat) wrote:

You know how to add injury to insult.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack.

Benefit: When you successfully demoralize an opponent
within your melee reach with an Intimidate check, you can
make a single melee attack against that creature as a swift
action. If your attack fails to damage the target, its shaken
condition from being demoralized immediately ends.

Pile On (Combat) wrote:

You can keep a foe shuddering in fear.

Prerequisites: Str 13, Hurtful, Power Attack.

Benefit: Once per round when you damage a creature that
is shaken, frightened, or panicked, you can choose to deal
half your normal damage in order to extend the duration
of its fear condition by 1 round.

Shocking Bellow (Combat) wrote:

You can demoralize a foe with a sudden ferocious scream.

Prerequisite: Intimidating Prowess.

Benefit: If you act in the surprise round of a combat, as a free
action you can attempt a single Intimidate check to demoralize
a creature within 30 feet that can clearly see or hear you.

I lied. It was 3.

You weren't kidding about it making Intimidate builds better.

[Saigo Takamori]

For the initial question: sure, it's viable. Since you will get the chance to get going with STR 10, you should be less MAD than a standard rogue (say thanks to you DM) and get a good AC. For the chance to touch: sur it can be hard to land 2 hits, but I'm pretty sure 2 hits at -10% is still better than one.

But the main way to make it work, I think, is to get the cooperation of your Barbarian friend. If you fight with 2 kukri and take this feat:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/butterfly-s-sting-critical
the Barbarian will love to help you get a flanking. Maybe he will even accept to get this feat to help you:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/outflank-combat-teamwork

[Atarlost]

You're making a full attack centered melee character in light armor with no shield and no arcane defenses. Oh, and a weak fortitude save for all those poisonous monsters and energy draining undead to exploit.

I have my doubts about any pure classed rogue, though at sufficiently high level a spring attacking scout/thug focused on debuffing could accomplish something without having to end his turn next to an enemy before accomplishing anything.

[Chengar Qordath]

Avoron wrote:

*Rogue Build*

75 hp and a +7 Fort save at level 16? I'm seeing a lot of glass in that cannon.

[FuelDrop]

May I just say that a twf rogue is a lot less suicidal if your team is willing to put some effort into working with you. Dagger master (or whatever the archetype is called) with dual daggers, twf, weapon focus, weapon finesse and a flanking buddy is kinda ok. Add outflank, Pack attack and precise strike and it improves considerably. If your flank partner is a cavalier then you have less net resources sunk in.

Is it optimal? No. Is it viable? That'll depend on circumstances, but possibly.