Goblin Squad Member
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I’d like to know what the current state of development is of each of the kickstarter add-ons. I purchased a few of these and so am excited to know of course. This is important for me I am inclined to delay starting playing the game until these options become available. It was the destiny’s twin that tempted me to put money into the kickstarter. Without that I wouldn’t have done so, and during EE/beta I’m struggling to persuade myself that paying a premium title subscription fee presents good value for money, given the stage of development of the game, without a destiny’s twin. Also several of the add-ons included equipment of various sorts. These were sold along side the EE packages. I don’t want to find that having paid for this additional equipment, that by the time I receive it I already have better kit and therefore received no value from the product I paid for. So I might defer joining EE until it is available. Similarly having paid for regional trait pack, which should influence my character concept, I don’t want to have created my ‘main’ character only to find out later that the mot appealing regional trait concept fits an entirely different type of character.
I still glance at the Paizo forums periodically, but haven’t seen clear information on any of this so apologies if it’s been covered elsewhere.
Destiny’s Twin. Will I have that at the start of EE?
Player Pack of Consumables. Included in the Adventurer and Pioneer backer levels, also sold for 15$. I’m not overly concerned about this one, but 15$ worth of digital product should be a nice selection of goodies. When I quit EVE 1 PLEX was going for about half a billion ISK which is enough for a serious shopping spree. 15$ worth of gear had better be more than a couple of healing potions and a candle.
Alliance Pack. Included in Pioneer backer levels, also sold for 20$. I believe this gave you a decent starting reputation with one of the factions & possibly some other benefits. Knowing what factions are available could influence the type of character I create. I might defer starting EE until this is released. If there is a limited selection of factions available I wouldn’t want to unknowingly trash my reputation with the most appropriate fit for me in the weeks before the alliance pack becomes available.
Regional trait pack. I bought this one. Again I’m inclined to delay joining EE until this is available to avoid regret. I want to play a character that works with the regional trait pack I paid for. If I want to play a barbarian type character I might expect to take the Lindhorn King regional traits, however if the Lindhorn King traits where for Skalds/bards then I might run with an alternative concept. Note that the regional trait pack offered a small mechanical benefit, which is partly why I bought it. An exception it would seem to the general policy of no pay to win.
Twice-marked of Pharasma. I bought this one. Again it offered mechanical benefit and extra game-play content to those who payed GW the money. Since the mechanical benefit I get might influence the type of character I build I’m inclined to delay EE until it has been released. If for instance the twice-marked of Pharasma mechanical benefit is something particularly suitable for paladin types, then I’d at least like to know that before I create my necromancer character J
I’m hoping GW can provide an update on these packages. I’m sure I’m not the only person to be interested.
Thanks,
kelpie
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Goblin Squad Member
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From the Alpha boards:
Current planning is that New Player Packs and Destiny's Twin will be available at the start of Early Enrollment, but that is not 100% confirmed yet. As soon as I can confirm they'll make it in, we'll blog about it.
Thanks for the info. I'm disappointed that's all we've been told, and hidden away on another board at that.
PFO/GW could really do with taking some lessons in communication & marketing from some other developers. Take Shroud of the Avatar. Another low-budget niche MMO using Unity from an indy developer. Their kickstarter finished after PFO, they raised a little under 2 million vs PFO ~1.5 million (total of the two PFO kickstarters). I see them as comparable even though they are different styles of game. Since their kickstarter SoTA have more than doubled their income and are sitting at about 5 million. SoTA's forums are generally a positive place to visit and I sense the community mood is positive about the game's prospects (there are of course squabbles between PVE and PVP players trying to influence development to favour their style). Hopefully its not too late for PFO to recover.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ AvenaOats
I'm not sure I fully understood what you're saying. PFO and SoTA are very different styles of fantasy sandbox MMO. I merely mentioned them as an example of a developer that seems to be doing things well. I backed both games, as well as Elite and Star Citizen. Of those the SoTA development seems to me to be most comparable with PFO.
Some key differences I see between PFO and SoTA communication & marketing:
- SoTA have published their development schedule in detail indicating what they intend to deliver each month in detail, month by month with a 3-month look ahead. They generally meet most elements of their published schedule, giving their backers confidence in the development. PFO however keep their backers largely in the dark, and aim low. They have a target date for EE but didn't ever clearly state what content that would be, and haven't stated what their development schedule is beyond EE. This clarity gives backers confidence in the development.
- Some of the SoTA kickstarter pledge levels were quite expensive, like those of PFO. Unlike PFO SoTA provide regular updates showing how development of the backer rewards is progressing, art assets, etc. This gives backers confidence to hand over more money.
- SoTA developers seem to appreciate their customers. They periodically post thank-you letters, etc. Marketing I'm sure but at least they're showing some appreciation. In PFO however the developers and what appear to be their forum alts periodically get involved in slagging matches on the forum. Provoked perhaps. Regardless the impact is that I'm not sure I want to give these guys more of my money.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I certainly see Kelpie's point, and agree that the communication from SotA is very solid. I similarly backed both of these along with Star Citizen, which likewise has some very impressive communication but is obviously not in the same arena as PFO. The biggest difference I see between SotA and PFO communication is the former gives me the impression of being more proactive on regular updates that are sent out to everyone, and also leveraged to market their product to ever wider audiences. My one complaint with their communication is the sometimes gimmicky "here's a new widget, give us some more cash!" sales pitch but that approach has mellowed as they've gotten deeper into their testing (Star Citizen has been similar in this regard). PFO on the other hand has a tendency to bury a lot of information in various places (the blog, here, the Alpha forums) which then at times leads to a response to a query of "PFO already answered that over on this thread."
For example, the "NPC Class" roles are fairly important to a good range of PFO players from what I can tell. It would be very beneficial for those of us wanting to play Commoners, Experts, or Aristocrats to know more solid information on how those are progressing, perhaps some "focus on these feats/skills in the interim to prep" guidance, etc. If we had a weekly update, or a central source of information for such it would go a long way I'd bet on alleviating concerns and generating excitement to recruit new players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is a totally legit request. We need to have some public discussion about our prioritization list so that we can engage people in Crowdforging.
Let me say a few things about this topic in general.
First, there are big issues involved in making this level of plan transparent. There's nothing we are hiding but we need to work really hard to craft the right description of what people would see when we release such a report. There are a lot of people who will not understand that our priorities are flexible and that as our assessment of the challenge of various tasks changes we would be reprioritizing our work. This has the potential to create "you lied" threads that we don't want.
Second, I want to talk about the idea of a "list" so we're all on the same page.
There is no list.
Instead, there's a series of scoped objectives starting with the widest scope and the longest timeframe, narrowing to the most specific scope on the shortest timeframe.
Widest Scope
The widest scope are things like "get all the races and all the classes from the Pathfinder Roleplaying game core book into the MMO". No details at this level, just objectives. This is the level the original Design Document was written to address. It doesn't even have ETAs or responsibility assignments. Most of our first year of Dev Blogs address the kinds of things at this level of scope.
I don't think there's anything on that level that the community doesn't already know about.
2015 Plan
The next level is a broad outline for what we're going to do over the next year. It pretty much looks like this:Q1: Outposts & POIs
Q2: Settlements
Q3: Siege Warfare
Q4: Formation combatFor 2015, there's not a lot of Crowdforging to be done at this level. These are our 4 quarterly goals and we need to do these things to build the game we want to build. We may not have explicitly spelled out those goals before but they should not be a surprise to anyone. We've said all along that our goal was to transition to Open Enrollment at the point where Settlements could contest for Territory, and that schedule takes us right up to January of 2016.
Now you'll note that none of those goals is included in "get the races and classes from the core rulebook into the game". Those quarterly goals are scoped to the quarter but within that quarter there are also other things being worked on like the aforementioned core book content. There is also a certain amount of bug fixing and polishing of existing features in each quarter. And there are things like building analysis tools, more customer service tools, working on the website and the forums, etc. which are also included. However, none of that stuff is explicitly scheduled at this level.
There is some amount of Crowdforging that can happen with those aspects of the plan, but it doesn't happen at this scope. It happens at the next level.
Next Quarter
About 30 days before the end of the current quarter, the team does a planning exercise to determine what they will attempt to complete in the following quarter. They have to leave some time unallocated because its impossible to tell how much of the current quarter's work will get finished and if something has to be moved forward to the next quarter there has to be room on the schedule to make that move.
It is at this level that a lot of choices have to be made about what each person on the staff will be working on. They are all mutually interdependent so its very rare that people can just work on "what they want to work on". Instead, collectively, the team has to decide what to tackle and estimate the time commitments for art, design and programming for each thing on that list.
Here is where we can have a lot of Crowdforging input, and we will. This is a time where we can share with the community a list of things we could work on and ask to help us prioritize that list. Community feedback can also help us determine that we need to add something to the next quarter's list that we hadn't planned on putting there.
We haven't figured out how to do this yet in a way that involves a large enough slice of the community to be fair. We cannot just have the same active 30 people on the forums "represent" the wishes of thousands of players. This is something we are going to spend a lot of time trying to systemize in the next few months and it will remain a work in progress probably forever.
Current Quarter
No battle plan survives contact with the enemy, and no development plan survives contact with real life. We are operating a live game and that means that we need to be able to stop what we had planned to be doing and fix things that become broken, or seize an opportunity to implement a feature to address a glaring but unanticipated need. So even though we start the quarter with a plan that plan is not likely to match what we actually do to 100%. 50% might be a good goal, and we might congratulate ourselves if we got to 75% of the plan.
Some of this can be Crowdforged but in a different way than the quarterly planning because the decisions to make these kinds of changes are often made in realtime rather than after a process of looping in and getting community feedback. On the other hand they're likely to be made because of input we're getting from the community and we need that feedback to make good choices. This is another systemization process we need to work on and formalize.
Right now we have a team of people who are working really hard to get their checklists complete for the start of Early Enrollment and I'm not going to slow them down to work on some public discussion of their work planning process. When we get past this current stressful period we'll be able to do a lot more of that. So expect us to revisit this topic in some depth after Early Enrollment begins (and by "after" I don't mean "the day after" - think weeks, not days).
It can be difficult to keep up with the communication sometimes given that the devs communicate with us on their alpha forum at Goblinworks, on these guest forums here, and on ideascale. Occasional gems of information even come from interviews or other MMO sites. Curse of the information age I guess.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Exactly--distribution of communication between disparate sources, some of which are not accessible to the overall population, can certainly cause problems. After over 15 years in the software development industry, I've found the most important thing isn't necessarily technical in nature, but rather in managing stakeholder expectations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I do not think it is a curse of the information age.
The goblinworks forums should now be the number one portal: they should install some good out-of-the-box forumsoftware and not those barebone alpha forums where you can't even see who posted a thread or did post last.
They should then disable posting on the PFO forum on Paizo, with a big message that people can now post on the forums on the Goblinworks website.
Ideascale could as well be an "Game Idea" subforum on the GW forums, with a good polling option. People can post an idea, with a poll, and then other people can comment. Mmm, where have I seen that before.
Also, a better forumstructure/tree then the current alpha forums: at the top of the tree there are no less then 20 forums to choose from. And then the top 5 forums all have up to 5 subforums already. With a LOT of overlap. It's a jumbled mess. Many of those subforums should be nothing more then a single thread.
Like this subforum: Community Arena
Or this one: News and Announcements
When you click on that forum you should see a list of News and Announcement threads made by devs, (that preferably can NOT be answered to), not another 3 subforums, a couple of Stickies and a slew of threads that aren't even announcements but just threads by players.
It's amateur stuff like this that sometimes gets to me, and then it is hard to keep the faith.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Kelpie, oh aye, I agree with you about stepping up communication, definitely. I'm a bit disappointed with the Goblin Squad status and receiving all the new info first and so on over the last 12 months for example. I don't really feel there's been any major use of that with inside the dev's engine room type off-the-wall stuff.
But saying that, I don't expect much communication at this point in time before launch where the devs are in the trenches (probably with trenchfoot by now!). I bet the tech issues of a single shard world and pulling all the pieces together is likely 90% of any reason for lite communication?
That said the devs still Q&A on these forums so it's not nothing either and their head count is deliberately kept as low as possible. Nice things to have etc. Didn't Ryan say he's like wearing a black hat, a green base-ball cap, a jesters crown and a moose's antlers, already?! :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Tyncale Yes, I wish the forums were better. At the moment, if they asked us if we want them to pull someone off their other tasks to get the forums better, or keep working on the game to prepare for EE, I'd find it a difficult choice, but would say keep getting ready for EE. I just wouldn't feel very satisfied about it though.
Even considering all the venues, I'm amazed by how often you can have a conversation with the devs. And now you can talk in game with them too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's amateur stuff like this that sometimes gets to me, and then it is hard to keep the faith.
MVP.Ryan has cleared stated that "making the game" is a much higher priority to "having players understand the game".
The disorganized information is not because GW doesn't know or care, it is because they are busy with more important things. They have NOT made sub forums here on Paizo or on Goblinworks, because that takes a backseat to other more important things.
The GW website and forums will the be the place go for all PFO info, it is just not there yet. Keep the faith. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's amateur stuff like this that sometimes gets to me, and then it is hard to keep the faith.MVP.Ryan has cleared stated that "making the game" is a much higher priority to "having players understand the game".
The disorganized information is not because GW doesn't know or care, it is because they are busy with more important things. They have NOT made sub forums here on Paizo or on Goblinworks, because that takes a backseat to other more important things.
The GW website and forums will the be the place go for all PFO info, it is just not there yet. Keep the faith. :)
MVP, nah. Not buying the buzzword today. :) You can have something better going in an hour. I am not buying the "we are going to crowdforge the forums too" and having to see 24 iterations of the forum before we get to anything that resembles the functionality of something out of the box. Actually, crowdforging your own forums seems like a lot of unnecessary work.
I want to keep the faith, but progress sure seems slow now, especially when it comes to combat. I mean, it's not that they have 3 people working on the game, like Project Gorgon, they have a team of 17-18 people. With that team and the current phase we are in, I was sortoff expecting daily patches with each patch resolving at least a few of the (minor) issues, like being able to scroll in the AH UI(still not possible).
And sorry for hopping on the "let us link to another game in development" bandwagon, but right now I feel we are in a rut.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Tyncale,
We have a disagreement on what MVP is. You may see it a gimmick/buzzword/marketing ploy/excuse while I see it as a fundamental design choice.
It is fair to compare this game to others of a similar nature, I just ask you take into consideration comparing apples to apples, and not apples to oranges.
I have been here from Alpha 7.1 to 9.1; the changes have been dramatic and steady, almost always on a weekly basis the updates.
There will be no crowdforging of forums; do you have a link or resource that says otherwise?
If you want to debate or converse further, send me a PM and I will be happy to not derail this thread any more. (Grin)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I have been here from the First Kickstarter back in 2012 to the second kickstarter, then about a 1000 posts and now I am here trying to scroll in the AH UI, and it *just wont go*! ;)
True, some huge steps have been taken lately.
Ryan about the GW forums: Like anything else...
He has confirmed this stance at least once after that.
Not a fan of PM's, always seems a bit sneaky, almost creepy to me. Too direct or close, I dunno. Like two people in a crowd who suddenly start to whisper to eachother.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I must admit, I've never understood the fascination with making a forum from the ground up, not just with GW, but with numerous other efforts. Unless the company job is making forums, use a well-established, viable solution and then worry about custom forum stuff when the core job is done.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We are, in addition to using Unity, using an off-the-shelf animation package (which we had to integrate with Unity because Unity's built-in system is too slow for an MMO), we're using Havok Physics, we're using Grome, we're using an off-the-shelf content management system for the website, and an off-the-shell forum system that integrates with that CMS.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect security was more important than flashy bells and whistles.Didn't Ryan just recently say they had off-the-shelf Forums and Content Management that were integrated?Yep, as Jazz says. Its too bad their choice didn't have more features to make it user-friendly.
I'm not privy to their decision making, but I'm sure whatever the trade off was, it must have been pretty important to them.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The forum software needs to authentice with the same system that the game server authenticates with. Most COTS software doesn't do that well, and it would take a lot of time to properly program and test to security standards a way to make a user-friendly system authenticate through a different method. I think two-factor authentication is expected at some point, and it would surprise me if it was more than a configuration setting to enable the GW website login to accept the new information required to log in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think two-factor authentication is expected at some point...
Too early to be definitive, but my guess is we'll use Google Authenticator, so it will be useable anywhere you can use Google authenticator.
Smartphones seem the most likely place for that to happen, and the venn diagram of people who play MMOs and people who have smartphones overlaps at the 99% percentile, so I don't see that being a handicap.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, I have been here from the First Kickstarter back in 2012 to the second kickstarter, then about a 1000 posts and now I am here trying to scroll in the AH UI, and it *just wont go*! ;)
True, some huge steps have been taken lately.
Ryan about the GW forums: Like anything else...
He has confirmed this stance at least once after that.
Not a fan of PM's, always seems a bit sneaky, almost creepy to me. Too direct or close, I dunno. Like two people in a crowd who suddenly start to whisper to eachother.
I can't help with the big stuff, but there is a way to make scrolling in the AH easier: Choose a category, like Weapons. Choose a subcategory, like Blades. Type in a keyword, like Steel, or Cold Iron. By this point, the list is usually short enough that you can click and drag the scroll indicator with decent responsiveness. (Does anyone know the proper term for that circle at the edge of the scroll?)
Unfortunately, you still can't use a mouse wheel or center mouse button to scroll. I hope that's coming soon. For the moment, I'm just glad I can restrict the choices enough to drag the scroll indicator circle, instead of clicking above and below it until the right items happen to appear on the screen.
Edit: For recipes, the keyword can really make a difference. For apothecary recipes, I use Weak as the keyword. For alchemist recipes, I use Apprentice's.
You can also narrow the field by selecting a particular tier. I find that using a very specific keyword makes this unnecessary.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd be happy with just a check box that says "available." Don't show me every item with every "+" variation. Only those things actually in the auction house are relevant almost all the time...
The stock answer to this request is for Ryan to tell us that soon enough, the market heavyweights will stock at least one of every item at every plus level in every Auction House every day, in order to watch for opportunities for profit. I'm not as confident as Ryan, but I'm willing to wait and see.
Alderwag, for instance, is way off the beaten path. Here in Alpha, I think there have been, at most, two or three people posting items on that AH (including me).
EE will be different from Alpha, that's a given. The profit motive will be there, because the profits won't disappear in a server wipe. I just think there are an awful lot of specialty items in the AH list, and I don't know if every single one of them will be available at a hinterlands AH every single time I go shopping.
EVE isn't a perfect comparison, because there are far more EVE marketplace outlets than PFO is ever likely to have. On the other hand, I know that even in fairly prosperous systems, I couldn't find every item every day.
Bottom line, I'm willing to give Ryan the benefit of the doubt for now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is, I can't at present come up with any good scenario for why I'd want to see selectors in a list for items that, once selected, don't display anything. As with you, I'm not quite sure that estimate of always having one of everything in the AH is going to be valid, at least not for a very long time. Maybe I'm too conservative on my vision there, which would I guess turn out well for me in the end with Keeper's Pass having an AH in the mix.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All it will take for Ryan's vision not to prove out is for someone to arrange to keep an auction house--or multiple ones--drained of some particular item, as if cornering the market. This will drive up demand, and thus the item's price, of course, but with enough funding, it'll happen.
Unfortunately, I can see someone doing this for no better reason than "to prove Ryan wrong", although there are going to be multiple "legitimate" economically-driven reasons for doing exactly the same thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I should maybe disclose that I'm in favor of a switch to hide empty items. The team feels it would be mostly wasted effort, and I support them in that theory. If it proves wrong we'll correct those assumptions.
I think most of us asking for the switch would be happy to be proven wrong. If your team is right, that will mean a great market for shoppers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think it it will be months, if not years before every AH fills up with auctions for all items, especially for tier 2 and 3 items. AH's filling up is also dependent on Transport features(Fast Travel, Caravans), since I doubt that every Settlement with an AH can produce(or gather) each and every of those items itself. So I think such a switch would serve its purpose for quit a while.
As long as there are empty auctions, new players will make threads about this for months, maybe years to come. The negative effect those threads have on a forum, and having to handle them may not be worth it.
Would it be possible to Crowdforge this particular feature? It has come up several times already. Looks like many players really want this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Heck, don't even bother with a switch (so no need to tweak visuals, build in logic for if it's on or off, etc.) if there's concern about spending too much effort. Just automatically filter the list to only allow selectors for available items. Barring someone coming up with any reason we'd ever need to see the non-valid selectors, it seems like the easiest solution.
I should maybe disclose that I'm in favor of a switch to hide empty items. The team feels it would be mostly wasted effort, and I support them in that theory. If it proves wrong we'll correct those assumptions.
That all depends on how long it will take for the auction house to fill up with everything.
It may seem like wasted effort in the short run, but for that beginning period it will be much more user friendly to new players and professional crafters, IMHO
There will be reviews going on no doubt, and a difficult to use Auction House will just be another red check mark on a list.
And of course, even farther down the road with the game, new settlements will have new auction houses, and those new AH's will be empty till traders and crafters put stuff there.
Just my opinions..
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Goblin Squad Member
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That all depends on how long it will take for the auction house to fill up with everything.
To use the auction houses of only one game as an example, LOTRO's been around for a long time, and on any given day there are plenty of basic crafting materials not for sale. When I post some, they clear out immediately; I experiment with increasing prices, and I find the market willing to pay what appears to be, to me, exorbitant rates.
The ability to pay those rates comes from the age of the game, and the piles of coin now sloshing around, of course, but it says there's--at least at times--a near-bottomless demand as well. PFO's likely to share that "bottomlessness", with so many crafters doing so many things so frequently.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with that Jazz. It will get to a point where most crafting materials will sell fast.
I also like that fact that Ryan is considering a switch to hide empty items from the market. I hope this comes to pass as it is time consuming to look through countless items and find nothing.
It would be much more helpful to just see what is available at a particular market.
Now, Kickstarter stuffs. I certainly hope that everything from the kickstarter makes it to EE on day one. I know for myself, I picked up a couple add ons with the purpose of using them on day one. I really do not want to sell it on the market... would be wasted money to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Heck, don't even bother with a switch (so no need to tweak visuals, build in logic for if it's on or off, etc.) if there's concern about spending too much effort. Just automatically filter the list to only allow selectors for available items. Barring someone coming up with any reason we'd ever need to see the non-valid selectors, it seems like the easiest solution.
There is a good reason to look at the "items that aren't stocked at this Auction House" list sometimes. That's how you'll know what the going rate is when you put one of those items up for sale.
The idea is that we shouldn't need Web sites to see global pricing data. If you look at an item in the AH right now, you'll see an area with parameters like "Average price in the last 30 days". It doesn't work yet, but it will.
When you're shopping for something to use right now, and you're not prepared to spend the time to run to another AH, you don't need to see every possible item, just the ones available right here, right now.
When you're putting something up for sale, or when you're stocking up on something and you're willing to run across the map to get the best deal, then seeing every item, for sale right here right now or not, is useful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a good reason to look at the "items that aren't stocked at this Auction House" list sometimes. That's how you'll know what the going rate is when you put one of those items up for sale.
That's a start I guess, but here again it would seem simpler to me to simply display that information based on the items you are offering up for sale (and thus have in inventory and can select). I can see a planning angle for having the ability to see something you neither are presently buying or selling, e.g. wanting to see what's hot on the market right now and then try to craft lots of that to distribute. But that's not going to be a highly useful piece of data without also knowing where exactly those things are selling like hot cakes. Otherwise there's a huge risk you show up at the town where nobody's buying. Direct market information will be important in that event (one of the reasons I think any good market-focused group will have resources seeded all over).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eventually, the AH interface is supposed to be able to tell us things like which item is in demand in which settlement. It might be a little while before it gets that sophisticated, though.
I agree that the big merchant cartels will probably keep a lot of hooks in the water. I hope that extends to the frontier AHs, and not just the trade hubs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bookmarked for inclusion in the soon to be updated EE FAQ thread; and for new people to add new insight to the topic on hand. :)