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I’ve been looking into making an alchemist, but I’ve been getting hit by increasingly confusing wording, such that I’m not sure how some stuff functions.
Q1: Do classes that gain a Mutagen (Mutagenic Fighter) stack with Alchemist levels to calculate the duration?
I know Rogues' talents stack and would assume other classes would as well, but since the wording isn’t there, I’d prefer to get an idea of whether a majority hold the same opinion or if there’s something else.
Q2: Can Unstable Mutagen be used with a Cognatogen?
As written, a cognatogen would not have an effect on a roll of 5 or 6. As intended, I’m not sure.
Q3: Can Mutagenic Touch be used with a Cognatogen?
Again, the wording of the spell assume it’s a physical mutagen, except there would be no benefit whatsoever from using it.
Q4: What “effects” of a mutagen are passed to a target through Mutagenic Touch?
The spell only explicitly states the alchemical bonus, penalty, and effective duration. It’s missing a statement on the natural armor bonus and any attached discoveries.
There are a large number of possible effects tied to a mutagen, but to list a few: Feral Mutagen, Elemental Mutagen, Ragdoll Mutagen, and most advanced mutagen effects in Master Chymist.
Q5: Can the penalty from a mutagen or Mutagenic Touch reduce a character’s score to 0?
Combining the content of questions 2 and 3, it is legally possible to grant a -8 penalty to one or more mental attributes of a creature by rolling a 5 with Unstable Mutagen. This is significant enough that some creatures can be reduced to zero in a given mental stat.
There is also the corner case of a Duergar PC with dumped Charisma could take Unstable Mutagen, roll a 5, and penalize their charisma to -1.
And now, onto the Master Chymist.
Q6: Does a Master Chymist’s Mutate ability effectively count as having imbibed a mutagen for the purposes of spells and effects?
While a mutagen is stated as “also causing Mutate,” I’m not sure if Mutate counts as a mutagen. This is potentially significant to its interaction with Mutagenic Touch.
Q7: How does Nimble’s bonus to natural armor interact with a Mutagen’s bonus to natural armor?
It comes down to whether the natural armor bonus is just a natural armor bonus, or if it’s an alchemical bonus to natural armor. I’m not entirely sure.
Q8: Is it possible to get the Draconic Mutagen at level 16?
Draconic Mutagen requires a sum total of 16 Alchemist plus MC levels, but also requires the character to know Form of the Dragon I. FotD I is a 6th level extract, which requires an effective alchemist level of 16 to use. Since Master Chymist doesn’t add an Alchemist extract level at 1 and grants a mutagen at 2, does this mean no one can actually get this mutagen at 16?
I know that spells beyond one’s ability to cast can be written into one’s spellbook, but does this mean the spell is “known” for the purposes of this pre-requisite? For the sake of speed, here’s a quote of the pre-reqs:
The character must have an effective alchemist level (alchemist level plus master chymist levels) of at least 16, must know the form of the dragon I extract, and must have the feral mutagen discovery or advanced mutagen to select this ability.
Q9: Would the effects of Furious Mutagen stack with other size-increasing effects?
To start, here’s a comparison between Strong Jaw and Furious Mutagen.
Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is.
The damage dice for the feral mutagen’s bite and claw attacks increase by one die step.
The source, target, and wording of effects are different, but would they stack? I’m still of the belief the answer is yes, but I’ve seen repeated results of generally no, usually because it’s asserted to be “similar wording.”
Q10: Should a Master Chymist be able to take Grand Mutagen without taking Greater Mutagen?
The character must have an effective alchemist level (alchemist level plus master chymist levels) of at least 16 and must have the feral mutagen discovery or advanced mutagen to select this ability.
The above is a quotation of what’s required to take Grand Mutagen via Master Chymist. I’ll ignore the Advanced Mutagen statement, since it’s self-qualifying.
Q1) No I don't think so, it's a separate mutagen and it doesn't say the levels stack.
Q2 & Q3) No, both are referencing a mutagen and Cognatogen aren't mutagen.
Q4) by the wording it's just the stat changes and nothing else.
Q5) Yes and it would knock them unconscious.
Q6) I don't know, as worded I kinda feel not.
Q7) Nimble is a natural armor bonus, so you take the higher between it and the mutagen.
Q8) From the looks of it no. But they have it there in case there's a loophole. Like if the spells in book count and would have let you taken it earlier.
Q9) I'd say yes, but don't have info on hand to prove it.
Q10) No because it still has the pre-req of greater. It's everything from the alchemist only changed by what they say. If they don't change it, it's the same.
Thank you for the response. Having a second point of reference is valuable, but here are the points at which I have come to a different conclusion:
1- The wording of Mutagen makes it clear that a character cannot have more than one mutagen or cognatogen at a time. To quote the section:
An alchemist can only maintain one dose of mutagen at a time—if he brews a second dose, any existing mutagen becomes inert.
The alchemist is still an alchemist even if they multiclass into Mutation Warrior. By contrast, Mutagenic Mauler has wording to cause the effect to stack with Alchemist levels. I am of the belief the wording is missing for the Mutation Warrior archetype, and needs to be inserted.
2/3- Cognatogens are mutagens due to the following statements in its discovery:
The alchemist gains the ability to create a cognatogen, a mutagen-like mixture that heightens one mental ability score at the expense of a physical ability score. If the cognatogen enhances his Intelligence, it applies a penalty to his Strength. If it enhances his Wisdom, it applies a penalty to his Dexterity. If it enhances his Charisma, it applies a penalty to his Constitution. Otherwise, this ability works just like the mutagen ability (including the natural armor bonus).
The first bolded segment has some potential to be discussed, but the second section becomes a catch-all for how cognatogens are affected by spells and effects. Beyond the reversal of attributes, it acts as a mutagen.
7- If the natural armor from Nimble is not an alchemical bonus, it therefore does not provide a bonus until the Master Chymist is at least 6th level into the prestige class over a basic mutagen. With a Greater Mutagen, it then requires 10 levels in MC. Similar to Burly, it provides bonuses to a set of skills, an attribute, and 2 combat-oriented attributes. Unlike Burly, the second attribute of Nimble will rarely ever become a benefit if it is not an alchemical bonus. I do not believe this is the intended result.
10- As quoted, the pre-reqs of Grand Mutagen through Master Chymist is 16th level + the Feral Mutagen discovery. The text of Grand Mutagen do not hold a requirement or set anything relative to Greater Mutagen when deciding its effects, therefore acquiring Grand Mutagen through MC currently does not require Greater Mutagen.
Thought of a couple other questions:
Q11: With the Draconic Mutagen, does refreshing the Master Chymist's mutagenic form by overriding the prior form refreah one's breath weapon?
Taking a mutagen or using the mutate ability again while in her mutagenic form works normally (with the new mutagen’s modifiers replacing the current modifiers, and the longer duration taking precedent).
she may use her breath weapon once per transformation into her mutagenic form.
The wording as written causes me to believe the MC must wait for the initial duration to expire before getting another breath weapon through activating Mutate or drinking a new mutagen, but this interpretation of the rules opens a new problem:
Q12: Can a Master Chymist gain additional uses of a Breath Weapon through using the Disguise advanced mutagen?
It suppresses all physical aspects of the mutation while active, meaning resuming one's mutagenic form would be a "transformation into her mutagenic form." It also states the Draconic Mutagen is suppressed while using Disguise, meaning there is a period of transformation out of, and back to a draconic form.
There is a 10 minute cooldown between Disguise uses, which means this may be intended.
I'd like some perspective beyond my own on both these two questions and the ones initially posted.
Mutagen-like abilities are not classified as the ability that they mimic. unless they are phrased the same way (as in the complete description mentions the exact same use), they are not considered the same ability.
Also while the mutagenic fighter might not stack, the mutagenic brawler does, so I wouldn't generalize.
Changing forms during the same duration of an ability does not replenish limited uses. this is not the case for any other ability or spell that causes this, so it won't here. Secondly, it only states that obvious changes don't work, not that they are suppressed, removed and then added back in or anything of the sort.
On regard to the grand mutagen you are correct however, This prc has different requirements for gaining it then the alchemist and these take precedence. So you only need the requirements as they are stated in its master chemist entry