|
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
If a spellcaster readies an action to cast a spell in response to some condition (I think the condition is irrelevant to this question), how much does the caster need to commit to?
In other words, is it sufficient to say "I ready an action to cast a spell in response to X", and then when X occurs they can choose which spell to cast? Or do they need to also specify which spell? And if the latter, do they then lose the spell if X does not occur (i.e. partial cast of a spell) ?
I looked through many posts here on this topic, and these specific questions are not answered definitively that I could find.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
They wouldn't lose the spell. Readied actions that aren't taken just don't happen. They would lose the standard used to readied the action.
As a GM id say that you have to specify the spell. You're pre committed to the action, which is why you can get it off fast enough to nterrupt an enemy's action. If you're going to evaluate the situation and make a choice abut what to do, then you're delaying, not readying. Trigger action and readied action have to be specific.
You should be able to select which spell to cast at the time you actually cast it, otherwise you would not be able to Ready-to-Counterspell. When you Counterspell, you identify the spell as it is being cast, then select the same spell (or dispel magic) to cast as a counterspell.
I suppose then the question would be, "is readying a counterspell different from readying other spellcasting?"
"Readying to Counterspell" and "Readying an Action" are different processes, with different rules sections.
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
Readying to Counterspell: You may ready a counterspell against a spellcaster (often with the trigger “if she starts casting a spell”). In this case, when the spellcaster starts a spell, you get a chance to identify it with a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If you do, and if you can cast that same spell (and are able to cast it and have it prepared, if you prepare spells), you can cast the spell as a counterspell and automatically ruin the other spellcaster's spell. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
Every GM I have played with interprets "specify the action you will take" as specify the action itself, not the type of action. So, "I ready to cast Magic Missile if he starts casting or he attacks", not "I ready to cast a spell if he starts casting or he attacks."
You don't have to choose the spell. That is the first step in the casting a spell action.
Casting Spells
Whether a spell is arcane or divine, and whether a character prepares spells in advance or chooses them on the spot, casting a spell works the same way.
Choosing a Spell
First you must choose which spell to cast. If you're a cleric, druid, experienced paladin, experienced ranger, or wizard, you select from among spells prepared earlier in the day and not yet cast (see Preparing Wizard Spells and Preparing Divine Spells).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Tarantula, by that logic you would also have to allow "I ready to use a feat", "I ready to make a combat maneuver", "I ready to use a skill", or "I ready to use a supernatural ability".
The rules you quoted specifies that before you cast a spell, you must choose which spell to cast. It doesn't necessarily mean "cast a spell" is a single specific action which encompasses all spellcasting.
I really think saying something like "I ready to cast a spell when I feel like it would be a good idea" or "I ready to make a combat maneuver whenever I feel like it" is not how readied actions are supposed to work.
|
|
Ok, from the responses above, it looks like this falls into house-rule territory.
In my opinion, if readying to counterspell allows you to pick your spell in response to the condition being triggered, then readying an action should allow that flexibility as well. Especially since you don't need to tack on the spellcraft in that case, it would seem to me you have even more time to decide which spell to cast.
Unless someone can convince me otherwise, that's how I'm going to rule for my group.
Thanks for the responses.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Tarantula, by that logic you would also have to allow "I ready to use a feat", "I ready to make a combat maneuver", "I ready to use a skill", or "I ready to use a supernatural ability".
The rules you quoted specifies that before you cast a spell, you must choose which spell to cast. It doesn't necessarily mean "cast a spell" is a single specific action which encompasses all spellcasting.
I really think saying something like "I ready to cast a spell when I feel like it would be a good idea" or "I ready to make a combat maneuver whenever I feel like it" is not how readied actions are supposed to work.
You can say I ready to attack if an enemy comes through the door but you don't have to declare what weapon you are going to use for the attack. So I don't see why you would have to state which spell you are going to cast.
Tarantula, by that logic you would also have to allow "I ready to use a feat", "I ready to make a combat maneuver", "I ready to use a skill", or "I ready to use a supernatural ability".
The rules you quoted specifies that before you cast a spell, you must choose which spell to cast. It doesn't necessarily mean "cast a spell" is a single specific action which encompasses all spellcasting.
I really think saying something like "I ready to cast a spell when I feel like it would be a good idea" or "I ready to make a combat maneuver whenever I feel like it" is not how readied actions are supposed to work.
In this case, the problem with those readied actions are the conditions, not the action.
Though, considering that "I ready to attack if he does anything but surrender" is legitimate, there's not a lot of limitations.
The existence of counterspelling suggests that you can choose the spell when it happens, not when readying. It also seems fair to allow a readied attack to be changed to a trip/bull rush/whathaveyou if the situation changes.
I'm forced to conclude that you must specify the spell in question. The reason? You can only ready a standard, swift, or free action (edit: or move action, oops), and you need to specify the spell so that you can verify that its casting time falls within those categories.
I'm forced to conclude that you must specify the spell in question. The reason? You can only ready a standard, swift, or free action, and you need to specify the spell so that you can verify that its casting time falls within those categories.
Hmmm...that is an excellent point.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I disagree, you simply can't choose a spell with a longer casting time. That argument doesn't support either side.
As an aside, you can cast a full-round spell by using two standard actions, if needed. Seems silly for a readied action, but it's plausible.
I want to point out again that "Ready to Counterspell" is not governed by the same rules as "Ready an Action" is. Trying to apply the rules of "Ready to Counterspell" to readied actions in general is like trying to apply the rules for grappling to a sunder maneuver.
You can say I ready to attack if an enemy comes through the door but you don't have to declare what weapon you are going to use for the attack. So I don't see why you would have to state which spell you are going to cast.
Even by the most generous interpretation of the rules, you would have to at least specify if you're making a melee attack or ranged attack (as they are listed as separate actions under the Combat rules.) I would argue that even that is too general to be considered a "specific action" and say you do indeed have to specify which weapon you'll be attacking with. For example, consider a dragon readying an attack - he would assumedly be posed differently if he were readying a bite attack or a tail attack. It's difficult to imagine that he has both options available at hair-trigger speed.
Um no. Readying an action only allows a standard action. There's nothing ambiguous there.
Not true.
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
|
|
The existence of counterspelling suggests that you can choose the spell when it happens, not when readying. It also seems fair to allow a readied attack to be changed to a trip/bull rush/whathaveyou if the situation changes.
I disagree. Counterspell is a specific action whereas "attack" is unspecific. You have to specify whether it's a melee, ranged, trip, grapple, etc. type of attack. The same rule applies when readying to cast a spell. Casting by itself is not specific. You have to specify the spell you are casting.
I disagree, you simply can't choose a spell with a longer casting time. That argument doesn't support either side.
Possibly. Convince me! I'd much rather be able to pick the spell on the fly.
When I reference counterspelling, I'm speaking from a logic perspective, not a rules one. As far as I know there's nothing specific in the rules on this matter (hence this thread), so I don't see anything else to go on. I haven't heard any better arguments.
In response to darrenan, I'm referring to the "begin a full-round action" standard action. I'd link but I'm on a phone.
|
|
I want to point out again that "Ready to Counterspell" is not governed by the same rules as "Ready an Action" is. Trying to apply the rules of "Ready to Counterspell" to readied actions in general is like trying to apply the rules for grappling to a sunder maneuver.
You can say I ready to attack if an enemy comes through the door but you don't have to declare what weapon you are going to use for the attack. So I don't see why you would have to state which spell you are going to cast.Even by the most generous interpretation of the rules, you would have to at least specify if you're making a melee attack or ranged attack (as they are listed as separate actions under the Combat rules.) I would argue that even that is too general to be considered a "specific action" and say you do indeed have to specify which weapon you'll be attacking with. For example, consider a dragon readying an attack - he would assumedly be posed differently if he were readying a bite attack or a tail attack. It's difficult to imagine that he has both options available at hair-trigger speed.
Um no. Readying an action only allows a standard action. There's nothing ambiguous there.Not true.
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action.
My comment was in response to the previous poster saying he could ready a full round action. And per his immediately previous post, yes I could see readying to start a full round cast as being allowable.
I disagree, you simply can't choose a spell with a longer casting time. That argument doesn't support either side.Possibly. Convince me! I'd much rather be able to pick the spell on the fly.
You ready a standard action.
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it.
The action for casting a spell is; Cast a spell. The action does not take effect until immediately prior to the condition you specified. The first step of the cast a spell action is to choose a spell.
Whether a spell is arcane or divine, and whether a character prepares spells in advance or chooses them on the spot, casting a spell works the same way.
Choosing a Spell
First you must choose which spell to cast.
If your condition never comes up, you never start casting the spell, and you never lose the spell slot. Once you choose the spell that is being cast, the slot is used, whether the spell goes off or is interrupted/fizzled.
My comment was in response to the previous poster saying he could ready a full round action. And per his immediately previous post, yes I could see readying to start a full round cast as being allowable.
You could ready the Standard action "Start full-round action", for example, BBEG has Princess hostage, and ready's that if the heroes attack him, he will start a coup de grace on her, which he will then complete on his next turn (assuming the heroes don't interrupt him somehow). There aren't a lot of full-round actions that allow this split 2 standard to complete however.
First you must choose which spell to cast.If your condition never comes up, you never start casting the spell, and you never lose the spell slot. Once you choose the spell that is being cast, the slot is used, whether the spell goes off or is interrupted/fizzled.
I completely disagree with that. Consider the following:
BBEG readies an action to attack Wizard Wally if he attempts to cast a spell.
Wizard Wally declares he is casting magic missle at BBEG
BBEG attempts to fire an arrow at Wizard Wally thus provoking an AoO from Fighter Fred first which results in BBEG being chopped in half by a greataxe.
Wizard Wally does NOT loose his spell just because he had named which spell he was intending to cast and never got to actually cast it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wizard Wally must have already started casting for BBEG's readied action to go off. He loses the spell slot even if BBEG dies before the casting is finished, because once he starts casting the spell he can't just decide he wants to save that spell for later.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
First you must choose which spell to cast.If your condition never comes up, you never start casting the spell, and you never lose the spell slot. Once you choose the spell that is being cast, the slot is used, whether the spell goes off or is interrupted/fizzled.
I completely disagree with that. Consider the following:
BBEG readies an action to attack Wizard Wally if he attempts to cast a spell.
Wizard Wally declares he is casting magic missle at BBEG
BBEG attempts to fire an arrow at Wizard Wally thus provoking an AoO from Fighter Fred first which results in BBEG being chopped in half by a greataxe.
Wizard Wally does NOT loose his spell just because he had named which spell he was intending to cast and never got to actually cast it.
Sorry, but no.
"If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."Wizard Wally declares he is casting magic missile. He marks the spell off.
BBEG has his readied action go off to ranged attack Wally.
Fred gets his AOO for the ranged attack, and kills BBEG.
Wally's magic missile goes off, using the spell slot. Wally already started casting the spell before BBEG was killed.
Wizard Wally must have already started casting for BBEG's readied action to go off. He loses the spell slot even if BBEG dies before the casting is finished, because once he starts casting the spell he can't just decide he wants to save that spell for later.
No the readied action goes off before the action that triggers it. So the BBEG starts to fire before Wizard Wally starts casting and Fighter Fred swings before BBEG can fire. So BBEG never fires the arrow and Wizard Wally never casts the spell.
Good enough for me to run it that way.
The "choose your spell in advance" issue aside, it's very clear that the character neither casts nor loses the spell if the condition never occurs. Furthermore, even if the condition does occur, the character may choose not to take the action (per the "you may take the readied action" language).
Had to reread the Wally scenario several times.
Wally loses the spell. Wally's casting was not a readied action and wasn't contingent on the BBEG's attack actually happening. First the attack of opportunity resolves, then the BBEG's attack (which is canceled on account of the BBEG being dead), then Wally's spell, which fizzles for lack of a valid target (unless you consider corpses creatures, in which case the BBEG becomes extra-dead.).
OldSkoolRPG: That is wrong.
"If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action."
Lets add 1 more step to this to make it clear.
Add Henchman who is adjacent to Wally and threatening him with a weapon.
Wally casts Magic Missile anyway, because he knows BBEG is close to death.
Wally Provokes an AOO from Henchman AND triggers BBEG's readied action.
BBEG begins his ranged attack, and Fred swings and kills him.
Henchman takes his AOO because Wally is STILL CASTING THE SPELL and hits Wally. Wally is able to make his concentration check and keeps the spell.
Now here is the fun part.
"You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect."
Even though Wally started casting Magic Missile intending to target BBEG, he can now target Henchman with the spell and does so.
Since Wizard Wally was not using a readied action, why doesn't he get to pick a new target for that Magic Missile spell?
Since Wizard Wally was not using a readied action, why doesn't he get to pick a new target for that Magic Missile spell?
He does! As I put in my example.
|
|
I guess it goes into how you ready the word "specify." The GMs in the PFS group I play in interprets that as a specific action that must be identified to include which spell you are readying to cast. I'll have to ask them about this next time we play as RAW is not clear how specific a readied action needs to be.
|
|
Now here is the fun part.
"You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect."
Based on this, I think it implies that you have determined which spell you are casting already. Thus, upon completion, you can make these decision. This leans more towards readying to cast a specific spell rather than readying to cast a spell.
Specify an action. "If BBEG casts a spell, I will cast a spell."
If BBEG casts fireball (and you successfully identify that), you might cast resist energy on yourself.
If BBEG casts magic missile, you could cast shield, to defend against it.
If BBEG casts dimension door, you could cast dimensional anchor to stop him.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Based on this, I think it implies that you have determined which spell you are casting already. Thus, upon completion, you can make these decision. This leans more towards readying to cast a specific spell rather than readying to cast a spell.Now here is the fun part.
"You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect."
When the spell comes into effect is different than when you start casting it.
Casting a spell:
1) Choose the spell
2) Concentrate (If you are injured/cast upon/grappled/moved/defensive/etc)
3) Aim the spell.
4) Determine affects.
Until you get to 3) you don't have to worry about the target. Once you start with 1) you have lost the slot.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Runner:
The BBEG casting begins, you interrupt it. If you shot him with an arrow instead, it would happen during his casting, and cause him to need a concentration check. He has already selected which spell he is casting, as that is step 1 of cast a spell.
Runner:
The BBEG casting begins, you interrupt it. If you shot him with an arrow instead, it would happen during his casting, and cause him to need a concentration check. He has already selected which spell he is casting, as that is step 1 of cast a spell.
It... actually doesn't. When you ready an action to attack with the trigger of "if x starts casting a spell," you're not actually attacking them during the casting. The readied action takes place beforehand, as the readied action rules say. Even an AoO doesn't take place during the casting of the spell.
However, these attacks still force a concentration check. Only because the rules say they do.
Injury: If you take damage while trying to cast a spell, you must make a concentration check with a DC equal to 10 + the damage taken + the level of the spell you're casting. If you fail the check, you lose the spell without effect. The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between the time you started and the time you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action).
The BBEG's only decision is that they're going to cast a spell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Archive:
To cast a spell, you first choose the spell.
Whether a spell is arcane or divine, and whether a character prepares spells in advance or chooses them on the spot, casting a spell works the same way.
Choosing a Spell
First you must choose which spell to cast.
Look at your injury quote.
"The interrupting event strikes during spellcasting if it comes between the time you started and the time you complete a spell (for a spell with a casting time of 1 full round or more) or if it comes in response to your casting the spell (such as an attack of opportunity provoked by the spell or a contingent attack, such as a readied action)."AoO from the casting, or a readied action both happen DURING the casting of the spell. In order for BBEG to start casting the spell, he must state which spell he is casting.
Example:
Wizard: I ready to cast a spell if BBEG casts a spell.
BBEG: I cast magic missle.
Wizard: AHA! My readied action goes off! Free action: Spellcraft to know what spell BBEG started. I choose to cast shield on myself.
BBEG: Free action: Spellcraft to know what spell Wizard cast. Drat! Ok, I'll target the Fighter with the magic missile since I know the Wizard won't be affected by it with a shield up.
This works because the caster doesn't have to choose the target until the effect resolves. "You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect."
Or an alternate:
Wizard: I ready to cast a spell if BBEG casts a spell.
BBEG: I cast shield.
Wizard: AHA! My readied action goes off! Free action: Spellcraft to know what spell BBEG started. I choose to cast magic missle!
BBEG: Free action: Spellcraft to know what spell Wizard cast. Drat! That sucks!
Wizard: Rolls damage. Woohoo max!
BBEG: Concentration check to hold his spell as he was injured during casting (due to a readied action). Spell fizzles. NOOOOOOOOOOO!
Stuff
Bleh. Looks like I screwed up some with what I said. They do in fact choose the spell, for example.
The concentration rules would seem to say that the attack from a readied action happens during spellcasting.
The readied action rules say that your action happens prior to the triggering action. It makes no exception for what it calls the specific action "distracting spellcasters." But, it does say that damaging them from this could make them lose the spell. (Though, it refers to spellcraft instead of concentration oddly.)
Ultimately, reading them together would give you that a readied action to specifically disrupt spellcasters with an attack happens during the casting of the spell.
I would suggest that disrupting spellcasting is a special, specific circumstance, as it conflicts with the general "your action occurs just before the action that triggers it." Similarly, ready to counterspell is a specific circumstance which also diverges from the general. Therefore, I would suggest that unless you are intending to counterspell or disturb the casting, you would be unable to use Spellcraft on the BBEG's spell as the action still has yet to happen. There is not specific over general in that case.
Responding at all with the aid of Spellcraft, is, of course, assuming that simply "readying to cast" is enough to ready with.
Identify a spell as it is being cast 15 + spell level
Not once it is done, but as it is being cast. Since your action interrupts during the casting of BBEG spell (he has chosen it) and it is your turn, you should be able to take a free action to identify the spell he is casting.
When you ready, you choose an action to ready. The standard action is "Cast a spell" not "Cast magic missile". The same way attack is its own action.
Making an attack is a standard action.
I would allow the character to at the time of the attack, decide which weapon he has ready he is attacking with. For a TWF toothy orc with armor spikes and IUS, this could be from up to 5 different weapons (right/left hand;bite;armor spikes;unarmed strike). He doesn't have to declare which one in advance. If he had a dagger, he could even quick draw and throw it as his attack if the creature he had readied against took a 5 foot step back to try to get out of his reach.
StuffBleh. Looks like I screwed up some with what I said. They do in fact choose the spell, for example.
The concentration rules would seem to say that the attack from a readied action happens during spellcasting.
The readied action rules say that your action happens prior to the triggering action. It makes no exception for what it calls the specific action "distracting spellcasters." But, it does say that damaging them from this could make them lose the spell. (Though, it refers to spellcraft instead of concentration oddly.)
Ultimately, reading them together would give you that a readied action to specifically disrupt spellcasters with an attack happens during the casting of the spell.
I would suggest that disrupting spellcasting is a special, specific circumstance, as it conflicts with the general "your action occurs just before the action that triggers it." Similarly, ready to counterspell is a specific circumstance which also diverges from the general. Therefore, I would suggest that unless you are intending to counterspell or disturb the casting, you would be unable to use Spellcraft on the BBEG's spell as the action still has yet to happen. There is not specific over general in that case.
Responding at all with the aid of Spellcraft, is, of course, assuming that simply "readying to cast" is enough to ready with.
The situation is not unique to spell casting, it is the same with all readied actions. Readying an attack if someone enters your melee range sets up the same time loop. You end up attacking before the triggering event occurs, thus you cannot attack.
The only way to resolve the conflict is by tracking the resolution of an action, not the start of an action. Thus:
BBEG starts his (triggering) action
You start your readied action
You complete your readied action
BBEG completes his action (if able)
You finished first so your place in the initiative order is just before his even though he started his action first.
|
The situation is not unique to spell casting, it is the same with all readied actions. Readying an attack if someone enters your melee range sets up the same time loop. You end up attacking before the triggering event occurs, thus you cannot attack.
Did you really just say that if I ready an action to attack someone when they get in range I can't attack them when they move up to me?
He's commenting on a place where the rules don't make sense.
The situation is not unique to spell casting, it is the same with all readied actions. Readying an attack if someone enters your melee range sets up the same time loop. You end up attacking before the triggering event occurs, thus you cannot attack.Did you really just say that if I ready an action to attack someone when they get in range I can't attack them when they move up to me?
If you follow The Archive's line of thinking, that is what you end up with.
Ready action to attack if BBEG is in range.
BBEG moves into range.
Readied action happens before triggering action, so BBEG is not in range.
Versus:
Ready action to attack if BBEG is in range.
BBEG moves into range.
Readied action happens before BBEG can complete his action, but not before he triggers the action.
BBEG now completes his action.
I think, outside of determining new initiative order, the rules bit above can safely be ignored. Why? Pc's aren't robots, they're relatively intelligent beings that can distinguish when the opportunity they're looking for arises, and know when to attack/cast/move/etc.
Unless you want to force all your players to get specific to the point of "I ready to attack when he steps within reach, but not before so I can actually reach him because I'm not a time traveler and don't want to swing my sword into the past."
I think, outside of determining new initiative order, the rules bit above can safely be ignored. Why? Pc's aren't robots, they're relatively intelligent beings that can distinguish when the opportunity they're looking for arises, and know when to attack/cast/move/etc.
Unless you want to force all your players to get specific to the point of "I ready to attack when he steps within reach, but not before so I can actually reach him because I'm not a time traveler and don't want to swing my sword into the past."
Stop making sense. This is a rules discussion!
You're right! What am I thinking?!
It seems to me that ready an action says specify the action you will take, not specify the type of action you will take.
Casting Magic Missile it a specified action, of the type 'cast a spell' which requires having a standard action to perform.
(slightly different meanings on the word action here, one being what you are doing, the other being a resource pool you have to do it with)
During your turn, you can't say 'my action is to cast a spell,' you actually have to clarify what spell you are casting, since, among other things this could effect a readied counter-spell action.