Milking my Familiar (viper) for poison / venom

[Ravingdork]

I've always figured using Craft (alchemy) already included such things like milking snakes, collecting the base herbs, or whatever, and then making them more potent and long lasting.

A player character trying to milk their viper familiar would just be making use of this skill to craft poison.

[Gaberlunzie]

Driver 325 yards wrote:

In the real world and in Pathfinder, a snake's poison is something that can be milked and is something that is a poison. Poison (Ex) is the ability to excrete poison the substance. Poison, the substance is poison the equipment.

So you claim. You still have shown absolutely 0 rules to support that, though.

[Driver 325 yards]

Gaberlunzie wrote:

Driver 325 yards wrote:

In the real world and in Pathfinder, a snake's poison is something that can be milked and is something that is a poison. Poison (Ex) is the ability to excrete poison the substance. Poison, the substance is poison the equipment.

So you claim. You still have shown absolutely 0 rules to support that, though.

Well if Pathfinder uses the word poison in different context without distinguishing between the uses, then poison in one place should be assumed to be the same as poison in another place. I should not have to support this obvious stance.

Anyone arguing against the obvious should be the one put in the position of having to support the opposite of the obviously implied. And to that I say that you have supplied 0 rules that go against the obvious.

[Driver 325 yards]

With that said, let me do my best to support the obvious.

Here is the description language for poisonous snakes

Quote:

Poisonous frogs are a bright green color, with additional bright yellow, red, or blue markings. They are just over a foot long and weigh 10 pounds. The poison of poisonous frogs is often gathered by primitive tribes and used to coat darts and arrows for hunting.

Further, the poisonous snake has the Poison (Ex) ability that says

Quote:

Injury; save Fort DC 10; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1d2 Con damage; cure 1 save

So here is a clear example of a frog with the Poison(Ex) ability that according to the descriptive text excretes poison the substance that is collected by tribes to poison their darts, etc...

So as I said before, Poison(Ex) the ability allows a creature to excrete poison the substance. Poison the substance is the same as poison the equipment (used to poison weapons).

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Starting a guide, going to post the relevant thread here for anyone interested...

linky

[Driver 325 yards]

How about the poison manticore description:

Quote:

A poisonous manticore has the body of a lion and the wings of a dragon. Its back is set with curved barbs, and its long tail ends in a cluster of deadly spikes. Its jaws and tail spikes drip with poison, and a green toxic substance oozes from its pores. Poisonous manticores tend to be excitable and easy to anger. They enjoy hunting creatures larger than themselves, knowing that their poisons give them an unfair advantage.

Once again, the poison from animals with the Poison(Ex) ability is a substance - a substance with color that drips and oozes.

So I say, where is the evidence in Pathfinder rules that supports poison the substance that is excreted from animals being any different than poison the equipment that you can buy over the counter. I suggest to you that there is no difference anywhere in the rules.

[Driver 325 yards]

Ravingdork wrote:

I've always figured using Craft (alchemy) already included such things like milking snakes, collecting the base herbs, or whatever, and then making them more potent and long lasting.

A player character trying to milk their viper familiar would just be making use of this skill to craft poison.

Craft (alchemy) is needed when you do not have the access to or the ability to get poison directly from an animal. It is also needed to make poisons that don't come from animals. It is also needed to make alchemical items.

Further, the fact the craft alchemy presents one way to get poison does not invalidate other methods to do the same.

[Driver 325 yards]

FrodoOf9Fingers wrote:

There is a method to indirectly milk anything. It involves the "Chalice of Poison Weeping".

1. Poison a target guinea pig (either have yourself be poisoned or commit an act of evil and use something else).
2. Use the chalice of poison weeping to cure the target guinea pig while collecting the poison.

Usuable 1/day.

There's some really nasty poisons available if you get the creature. Consider the jellyfish, for example.

I'm thinking of making a poison guide to help find ways to take advantage of poison outside of traditional methods.

How is this any different than milking a viper. The chalice lets a creature that otherwise can not excrete poison on its own the ability to excrete the poison into a jar.

The viper, however, does not need the chalice because it can excrete the poison on its own into a jar.

[Gaberlunzie]

There is exactly as much support in the rules for milking a snake's Poison [Ex] to get a vial of poison, as there is for milking a duergar's Invisibility [Sp] to get a potion of invisibility or milking a wight to get a scroll of Energy Drain [Su].

That two things share a name does not, from a rules perspective, mean they are the same.
Are you claiming you can milk a Wight to get a scroll of Energy Drain?

[boring7]

This is like the peasant rail gun. You can't arbitrarily turn "realism" on and off whenever you want and expect it to work.

For those who don't know, the peasant rail gun system (PRGS) is where you line up a few thousand peasants, skeletons, or other throwaway minions 30 feet from one another. You hand the first one an object (let's say a 10-foot pole) and kick off a combat round. Each peasant in the PRGS has orders to ready an action to move 30 feet and hand off the object to the next peasant in the chain. One round (6 seconds) later the object has traveled several miles and is let go. At this point, inertia of real-world physics says it should be traveling well beyond the speed of sound and fly, like a rail gun slug, into the nearby castle wall and explode.

The nonsense of moving several miles down the relay line in seconds is perfectly within the rules, same as forcing your viper familiar to bite a cork a million times in a day and produce poison with every bite. The problem is that by those same rules when you let go of the object its kinetic energy doesn't suddenly start working again and the snake's poison doesn't pool or collect, they both just disappear.

[My2Copper]

I know a different version of the peasant railgun:
Line them up and hand every one of them some arrows and one of them (on one end) a magic bow. Every one of them has the order to delay to pick up the bow, shoot it and drop it to one side. At the end of the turn (6 sec) every one of them has shot an arrow from the same bow no matter how many peasants you have. The next round they do the same just in reverse direction.
No on and off realism, just many shot arrows in little time with only one bow. And completely raw.

[Umbranus]

If looking for a source for a 2 saves poison:
A serpentine blooded sorc (or one with eldritch heritage) with an effective level of 7 has a poison with two saves usable 3+cha mod times per day. DC 10 + 1/2 your sorcerer level + your Constitution modifier. I'm just building a bloodrager with eldritch heritage serpentine.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

boring7 wrote:

This is like the peasant rail gun. You can't arbitrarily turn "realism" on and off whenever you want and expect it to work.

For those who don't know, the peasant rail gun system (PRGS) is where you line up a few thousand peasants, skeletons, or other throwaway minions 30 feet from one another. You hand the first one an object (let's say a 10-foot pole) and kick off a combat round. Each peasant in the PRGS has orders to ready an action to move 30 feet and hand off the object to the next peasant in the chain. One round (6 seconds) later the object has traveled several miles and is let go. At this point, inertia of real-world physics says it should be traveling well beyond the speed of sound and fly, like a rail gun slug, into the nearby castle wall and explode.

The nonsense of moving several miles down the relay line in seconds is perfectly within the rules, same as forcing your viper familiar to bite a cork a million times in a day and produce poison with every bite. The problem is that by those same rules when you let go of the object its kinetic energy doesn't suddenly start working again and the snake's poison doesn't pool or collect, they both just disappear.

If this WAS perfectly in the rules, then you have a great point. But handing an object to another player is not an action that is defined. The closest thing we have is a free action to drop an item, and a move action to pick an item up from an adjacent square. Therefore, the longest distance one peasant could get an item is 5 feet. With that in mind, the rail gun still works... but a professional could throw an object faster than thousands of peasants working together. In fact,if a baseball is used, a professional player can throw a speedball at speeds in excess of 100 MPH. It'd take 10,560 peasants in the rail gun system to achieve what a level 2 or 3 PC can do. So, your point is just "good", not great :P

Part of this game is that it's a model of real life. It adds things in that don't really exist, over simplifys things, and takes things away. There is no RAW to support milking, and very little material that even hints at a possible intent of allowing milking into the game.

Hence, this falls nearly completely under GM fiat, with the exception of the chalice method. However, that being said, this is perfectly reasonable and any GM I've been with has allowed it.

EDITED for clarity of meaning.

[Driver_325yards]

Gaberlunzie wrote:

There is exactly as much support in the rules for milking a snake's Poison [Ex] to get a vial of poison, as there is for milking a duergar's Invisibility [Sp] to get a potion of invisibility or milking a wight to get a scroll of Energy Drain [Su].

That two things share a name does not, from a rules perspective, mean they are the same.
Are you claiming you can milk a Wight to get a scroll of Energy Drain?

I showed you the poison frog entry which is directly on point and yet you still don't believe. Don't know what else to do. If you can see it, read it, and still not believe it, then there is really no point for me to continue the discussion with you.

I suppose you won't even give in on the poisonous manticore. Heck, you could just put a cup under its paws as it drips poison into the cup.

[Driver_325yards]

You know what, I think I too will start a guide, direct other to see you arguments as to why you can't get poison from a snake or the dripping poison paws of a manticore and see who the general public finds to have the more convincing argument.

I think I win pretty easily, but I can't wait to see.

[Gaberlunzie]

The poison frog entry just says that certain "primitive tribes" have some sort of way to gather it. It does not say anything about any other poisons nordoes it say how it works or what tribes do this or what species does it or if nonmembers of the tribe can do it. From a rules perspective, it means nothing.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

Driver_325yards wrote:

You know what, I think I too will start a guide, direct other to see you arguments as to why you can't get poison from a snake or the dripping poison paws of a manticore and see who the general public finds to have the more convincing argument.

I think I win pretty easily, but I can't wait to see.

???

I think your talking to me? If so, if your making a guide just to try and prove someone wrong, then who would really read your guide? I've been meaning to write a guide to provide RAW methods of efficient poison use.

Milking poison is not RAW, plain and simple. I wish it was like in DnD 3.5, but it isn't.

I'm also a bit confused by the tone of your post... You came across pretty arrogant and jerkish... was that intended? I could be wrong of course.

[Tarantula]

Driver 325 yards wrote:

Gaberlunzie wrote:

Driver 325 yards wrote:

In the real world and in Pathfinder, a snake's poison is something that can be milked and is something that is a poison. Poison (Ex) is the ability to excrete poison the substance. Poison, the substance is poison the equipment.

So you claim. You still have shown absolutely 0 rules to support that, though.

Well if Pathfinder uses the word poison in different context without distinguishing between the uses, then poison in one place should be assumed to be the same as poison in another place. I should not have to support this obvious stance.

Anyone arguing against the obvious should be the one put in the position of having to support the opposite of the obviously implied. And to that I say that you have supplied 0 rules that go against the obvious.

Quote:

Poisons can be made using Craft (alchemy). The DC to make a poison is equal to its Fortitude save DC. Rolling a natural 1 on a Craft skill check while making a poison exposes the crafter to the poison. Crafters with the poison use class feature do not risk poisoning themselves when using Craft to make poison.

There is the rule which covers making poison. There is no other rule which allows for collecting poison. Therefore, craft(alchemy) is the only way to create a poison that a PC can take.

[EpicLvlPsion]

Thread Necro, Ultimate Wilderness pg 142. Harvesting poisons, milking poisons, etc.