Couple of Summoner Questions


Rules Questions

Shadow Lodge

1: Synthesist (I think that's what its called) Archetype says that the fused summoned can't benefit from the eidolon's feats. What about feats that modify the base creature? For Example Toughness, Improved Natural Armor, and Fleet. Would the summoned use the Eidolon's modified natural Armor Bonus HP and Base Speed?

2: How does Dimensional Anchor interact with spells like Dismissal & Banishment. Will Dimensional Anchor prevent forced planar travel induced by those spells the way it prevents Teleporting and Gating?

Edit:

One more question, can the eidolon take extra evolution as one of its feats? It Is the eidolon class feature after all.


Master of Shadows wrote:

1: Synthesist (I think that's what its called) Archetype says that the fused summoned can't benefit from the eidolon's feats. What about feats that modify the base creature? For Example Toughness, Improved Natural Armor, and Fleet. Would the summoned use the Eidolon's modified natural Armor Bonus HP and Base Speed?

2: How does Dimensional Anchor interact with spells like Dismissal & Banishment. Will Dimensional Anchor prevent forced planar travel induced by those spells the way it prevents Teleporting and Gating?

Edit:

One more question, can the eidolon take extra evolution as one of its feats? It Is the eidolon class feature after all.

1:
Quote:
The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon's maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.

The Eidolon itself has no feats.

2: IIRC yes.
3: see 1, synt-eidolon has no feats.


And the other non synthesist eidolons cant take the extra evolution feat because its prerequisite is to 'have the eidolon class feature'

Eidolons dont have class features. They *are* a class feature.

Shadow Lodge

I had misremembered the rule to say does not benefit from feats, as opposed to does not have feats. All though the 16th level ability to split the eidolon says to treat it as a normal eidolon, so at that point it would gain feats and the question stands.

Anyone else want to weigh in on this or the other question?


Huh. Yes, It would seem that the Synthesist suit eidolon gets feats, saves and skills of it's own only for the period of the splitting at level 16 and above. Awkward mechanic, that.

Keep in mind, it will only have a few feats to spend, and it will still be a combat chassis, so you will be duplicating a lot of them from the summoner.

It cannot take extra evolutions. It has no eidolon class feature, and Vincent said.

Shadow Lodge

Yeah, I get the feat limitation, that's why the only ones i'm really interested in are ones that provide increases to the Eidolon's base statistics like the examples mentioned in the OP.
It stands to reason that once the Eidolon is given those feats, Its AC, HP, and Speed will increase, and so since the Synthesist uses those statistics from the Eidolon, he would then be increased accordingly when in form.

Grand Lodge

Gevaudan wrote:
Huh. Yes, It would seem that the Synthesist suit eidolon gets feats, saves and skills of it's own only for the period of the splitting at level 16 and above.

It doesn't have a mind of it's own save for those brief moments either.

Shadow Lodge

That's not really relevant to the question Lazarx. Feats that improve the physical form don't really require any mental capacity. DR,AC,HP all feed in to the physical form which is static, and accessible to the Synthesist.

I personally believe they should, but I have doubts about the design intent, hence the question. I don't want to be yet another guy with a poorly played synth but I also don't want to pass up power I should have either.

Grand Lodge

Master of Shadows wrote:

That's not really relevant to the question Lazarx. Feats that improve the physical form don't really require any mental capacity. DR,AC,HP all feed in to the physical form which is static, and accessible to the Synthesist.

I personally believe they should, but I have doubts about the design intent, hence the question. I don't want to be yet another guy with a poorly played synth but I also don't want to pass up power I should have either.

It's not intended that the synthesist has an additional set of feats because he's wearing an Eido-Suit. You're a single creature, not two.


It would only have its own feats during the rounds it was split. They would not apply while fused because it is only "For the duration of this effect, the eidolon functions as a normal eidolon of the summoner's class level. This ability replaces merge forms."

Shadow Lodge

Here is another question to throw into the mix: many of the Eidolon's evolutions say the summoner must be at least x level before selecting that evolution, does that mean summoner level, or character level?

Grand Lodge

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Master of Shadows wrote:
Here is another question to throw into the mix: many of the Eidolon's evolutions say the summoner must be at least x level before selecting that evolution, does that mean summoner level, or character level?

All class features refer to class levels unless specifically called otherwise.

Shadow Lodge

Can you please point me to the Rules text that says so? I will happily read it and follow it, but I didn't find it when I looked.


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Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.

Shadow Lodge

I'm skeptical(emphasis mine):

Tarantula wrote:
Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.

On a read through of other class abilities the wording is quite different. They say:

"at x level you gain y ability"
The evolutions read like this: "the summoner must be at least x level before selecting this evolution." That reads much less like an ability acquired (per the second half of the quoted passage) and more like a prerequisite per the first half. Which would be inline balance wise as the evolutions are already gated by a points pool.


Eidolons wrote:

An eidolon's abilities are determined by the summoner's level and by the choices made using its evolution pool. Table 2–9: Eidolon Base Statistics determines many of the base statistics of the eidolon. Each eidolon possesses a base form that modifies these base statistics. Eidolons are outsiders for the purpose of determining which spells affect them.

Class Level: This is the character's summoner level.

That's the closest to explicitly stating it the summoner gets. At X level you gain Y eidolon abilities as based on the table. If the ability was meant to go off character level, they should have said character level. They chose to state summoner level, and so those abilities are tied to your summoner class level, not total character level.


Allowing the interpretation that they are character levels instead of class levels would add a lot of power to a class with a ludicrously powerful reputation. I dont imagine there would be much support for such an interpretation.

The system on the whole is built around muticlassing making a character less powerful overall.

"the summoner must be at least x level before selecting this evolution."

could have been written

"the character must be at least x level before selecting this evolution"

I dont believe the distinction was incidental. YMMV of course.


LazarX wrote:


It doesn't have a mind of it's own save for those brief moments either.

Now that's some RP sauce!

"Don't make me go back, Master!"

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