One moment, please.
One moment, please.
Your moment is up! :)
Mike replied to this question a couple days ago in another thread. Short answer is no you can't seize it. Wording being reviewed.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rk50?SS-Deck-2-Give-the-Devil-His-Due-Question
Mike replied to this question a couple days ago in another thread. Short answer is no you can't seize it. Wording being reviewed.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rk50?SS-Deck-2-Give-the-Devil-His-Due-Question
The link seems to loop back to this thread (the URL isn't the same as the text shown).
The link seems to loop back to this thread (the URL isn't the same as the text shown).
Oops. Thanks Hawkmoon.
Well, you aren't defeating the ship that Enemy Ship summons, since you're not even fighting it; you're fighting Devil's Pallor instead. So you can't seize it.I thought about that interpretation. The thing I don't like about that is, if you technically didn't defeat the ship summoned by Enemy Ship, then you also didn't defeat the Enemy Ship henchman and can't attempt to close the location either.
Give the Devil His Due has been updated in the FAQ:
If a card would summon a ship, instead move the Devil’s Pallor to your location and encounter it.
I just played this scenario and I would like to have a few things confirmed (or refuted).
1) I'm with Edge of Dreams: as nothing is summoned when the Enemy Ship henchman is encountered (the Devil's Pallor is encountered instead), the Enemy Ship is undefeated and shuffled back into the deck. Right?
2) If the Devil's Pallor is defeated when encountered, what happens to it? My "guess" is that just as any other card, it is banished to the box. Then when a card would summon a ship, as per the Golden Rule, since moving the Devil's Pallor to the location would be impossible, the instruction would be ignored. Right?
3) So in the end, the Devil's Pallor is vexing the characters by preventing them to close locations populated by the Enemy Ship henchman, until it is defeated. Right?
4) If everything above is right, what happens if after being defeated, the Devil's Pallor is the ship randomly summoned by one of the remaining Enemy Ships, defeated, and seized by the characters, which end up their turn at the same location as the Sea Chanty? Would they banish a plunder card from the Sea Chanty?
I'm pretty sure (though I could be wrong) that the intention is that if you encounter an Enemy Ship henchman and instead encounter the Devil's Pallor, then defeat the Devil's Pallor, you can attempt to close the location, but that the Devil's Pallor never goes away. It would stay at the location once you closed it and be moved again after your move step.
That's how I've been playing it.
Chief Technical Officer
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I'm pretty sure (though I could be wrong) that the intention is that if you encounter an Enemy Ship henchman and instead encounter the Devil's Pallor, then defeat the Devil's Pallor, you can attempt to close the location, but that the Devil's Pallor never goes away. It would stay at the location once you closed it and be moved again after your move step.
That.
I'm pretty sure (though I could be wrong) that the intention is that if you encounter an Enemy Ship henchman and instead encounter the Devil's Pallor, then defeat the Devil's Pallor, you can attempt to close the location, but that the Devil's Pallor never goes away. It would stay at the location once you closed it and be moved again after your move step.That.
Is the card going to be updated? I played it again today and honestly I don't think the following sentence
If a card would summon a ship, instead move the Devil’s Pallor to your location and encounter it.
is a very good transcription of the "intention" as described above. For example, after encountering the Devil's Pallor, defeating it and closing the location, should I really still banish 1 plunder card from the Sea Chanty if it is at the same location?
Isn't that the point? It doesn't care if the location is closed or not, or where each ship moved at the beginning of the turn. When we play that scenario we'll be cautious with explores if the Sea Chanty is at the same location as us and aggressive with them if the ships are at the same place somewhere else, to minimize dragging the Devil's Palor to the Sea Chanty when it's at the location we're exploring and to maximize our chances at dragging it away if we're somewhere else and both ships are in the same place.
For example, after encountering the Devil's Pallor, defeating it and closing the location, should I really still banish 1 plunder card from the Sea Chanty if it is at the same location?
I did when I played this one. It meant that if, after a character's move step, you were at the same location as the Sea Chanty but the Devil's Pallor was at another location, you had to think carefully about exploring, knowing that there was a chance you would pull the Devil's Pallor to your location.
We ended up winning, but with only 2 plunder still int he Sea Chanty. One of them was the sharkskin armor though, so that was nice.
Just for clarification, while we are talking about this scenario again, don't forget you also still have your party's ship. The scenario doesn't instruct you to use the Sea Chanty as your ship. So when we took structural damage or stashed more plunder, it was applied to your ship. We got more plunder under our ship then we did from the Sea Chanty.
I really liked this scenario, including the choices we had to make about exploring when the Sea Chanty was at our location.
Yeah but most plunder you get under your ship are stupid weapons, thanks to the Devil's Pallor. I love me some plunder regardless of card type, but sifting through a stack of strength weapons killed the buzz. I'm sure that's nice if you're running with Valeros, but our Freiya/Lem party wasn't too enthused about it. Nor did Jirelle/Damiel find much of use. D:
Isn't that the point? It doesn't care if the location is closed or not, or where each ship moved at the beginning of the turn.
Maybe. But as we're working with intentions and not text written on a card, it is a bit strange (to me!) that on the same turn the Devil's Pallor is defeated and the characters get plunder, the Pallor can attack the Sea Chanty and banish one of its plunder cards. So what I did is that after being defeated, I moved the Pallor next to the scenario card (its initial position at the beginning of the scenario) and it started moving again on the next turn.
The problem is: I don't see anything on the Enemy Ship or Give the Devil His Due cards that would make me think one solution is better than the other.
That's quite an assumption to make Fayries. As long as the Pallor isn't destroyed (which it obviously isn't since you keep encountering it after defeating it), why wouldn't it still be able to attack the Chanty?
I was going to write something about banes banished to the box when defeated but I went back to the rulebook and found this :
Whether you succeed or fail to defeat a ship, unless you seize it (see Seizing Ships below), return it to wherever it came from.
So you're right. It should stay at the location, even if defeated.
Also note, ships are not banes, hence why they need text about what to do with them after an encounter.
If a card would summon a ship, instead move the Devil’s Pallor to your location and encounter it.
If the summoned ship is defeated, you may seize it. The Enemy Ship is also defeated, and you may immediately attempt to close the location this henchman came from.
I'm still confused as to why that line on Give the Devil His Due means the ship can't be seized when encountered through the Enemy Ship, but at the same time allows closing the location if defeated.
I'm still confused as to why that line on Give the Devil His Due means the ship can't be seized when encountered through the Enemy Ship, but at the same time allows closing the location if defeated.
Because of the golden rule on page 2 that says that scenario takes precedence over henchman in case of conflict.
There is conflict about seizing or not > follow scenario.There is no conflict about closing > follow henchman card.
This scenario is one of the very best I have played. Full of strategy once you understand that:
1) The Devil'd Pallor ship moves when the character's whose turn it is takes his move step, or when you encounter the henchman enemy ship, or when you encounter the villain, or when you encounter a bane (usually barrier) that summons a ship.
2) The Sea Shanty only moves when the character's whose turn it is takes his move step.
3) Move step is not mandatory. But it gives you en easy chance to separate the two ships. So better get rid of barriers like Becalmed fast.
4) You don't want to encounter the dragon turtle henchman in a scenario like that.
5) Sea Shanty loses plunder only at end of EACH turn if still together with the Devil's Pallor.
We saved 6 plunders out of 8 from the Sea Shanty by moving the strict minimum and using a lot of Augury, Spyglass and other Oracle powers.
I rechecked the scenario card to make sure it didn't say "after you move" and not "after your move step," just to make sure I didn't come across as a know-it-all jerk. While moving is optional, the move step still exists whether or not you actually move. Think you might have to put an asterisk next to that plunder. :D
But it is one of my favorite scenarios. Between this and Toll of the Bell, AP2 had a lot of neat variants that kept you on your toes (and summoning a whole location mid-scenario was not only fun, but thematic!)
If a card would summon a ship, instead move the Devil’s Pallor to your location and encounter it.If the summoned ship is defeated, you may seize it. The Enemy Ship is also defeated, and you may immediately attempt to close the location this henchman came from.I'm still confused as to why that line on Give the Devil His Due means the ship can't be seized when encountered through the Enemy Ship, but at the same time allows closing the location if defeated.
Arguably, it would probably be clearer if the scenario said "The Devil's Pallor can not be seized." As it is right now, you kind of have to realize that fact from the scenario card requiring you to have the Devil's Pallor doing stuff through out the scenario. In other words, even if you seized it, the scenario would require to you to move it after your move step. So the implication is you can't seize it.
But I wouldn't argue against it being explicit that you can't seize it.
I rechecked the scenario card to make sure it didn't say "after you move" and not "after your move step," just to make sure I didn't come across as a know-it-all jerk. While moving is optional, the move step still exists whether or not you actually move. Think you might have to put an asterisk next to that plunder. :D
But it is one of my favorite scenarios. Between this and Toll of the Bell, AP2 had a lot of neat variants that kept you on your toes (and summoning a whole location mid-scenario was not only fun, but thematic!)
So, this is interesting.
Your Turn
Take your turn by going through the following steps in order. The only required steps are Advance the Blessings Deck and End Your Turn; the other steps are optional.
Frencois probably reads that to say, "My move step is optional. If I don't move, I don't have a move step. Then there is no 'after my move step.' So I don't have to move the ships."
Dave Riley (and I as well) reads that to say that moving is optional during your turn, but that you still have a "move step" even when you don't move and therefore you still have an "after your move step."
There are some other cards that use "after your move step." So, I think the idea is that you still have "after your move step" even when you don't move. I play that you have all the steps, but the only steps that require you to take a certain action are Advance the Blessings Deck and End Your Turn (since reset your hand was rearranged). You still take your other steps, you just aren't required to do anything on those steps.
But perhaps that is worth some clarification.
*I removed "Reset Your Hand" even though the FAQ entry as written doesn't change that paragraph.
Well, I tried to do my research and ended up hoisted by my own petard anyway!
I really gotta assume the intent is taking an action in a step is optional, just because game structures don't tend to erase their turn order when you don't make use of them; you still have an Upkeep phase in Magic even if there's no cards that require upkeep on the table. Without clarification, yeah, you're justified in saying "my move step doesn't exist!" But I still wouldn't play it that way. If moving isn't required, that tanks a lot of the difficulty and randomness in the scenario, because once they're separated (which should be most of the time unless you're unlucky) you can just sit back and relax, exploring the deck at your own pace. What made the scenario exciting to me was the start and stop momentum of when we had to go fast, when we had to be careful, and not knowing which it would be on any given turn because the scenario forced us to lock in our movement before we knew where the ships would be.
Because of the golden rule on page 2 that says that scenario takes precedence over henchman in case of conflict.
There is conflict about seizing or not > follow scenario.
There is no conflict about closing > follow henchman card.
Arguably, it would probably be clearer if the scenario said "The Devil's Pallor can not be seized." As it is right now, you kind of have to realize that fact from the scenario card requiring you to have the Devil's Pallor doing stuff through out the scenario. In other words, even if you seized it, the scenario would require to you to move it after your move step. So the implication is you can't seize it.
Yes, I think I finally wrapped my head around it. The assumption is that despite the instead word, you don't just encounter the Devil's Pallor, it actually becomes the summoned card. Instead threw me off and made me think there was no longer any summoned card to apply the Enemy Ship resolution to.
Thanks to both of you! (This game sometimes reminds me of the maths problems from my college days.)
*I removed "Reset Your Hand" even though the FAQ entry as written doesn't change that paragraph.
Already requested.
Frencois probably reads that to say, "My move step is optional. If I don't move, I don't have a move step. Then there is no 'after my move step.' So I don't have to move the ships."
.. So, I think the idea is that you still have "after your move step" even when you don't move. I play that you have all the steps, but the only steps that require you to take a certain action are Advance the Blessings Deck and End Your Turn (since reset your hand was rearranged). You still take your other steps, you just aren't required to do anything on those steps.
...
Sold! Rethinking of it, I guess you are right. Too bad, because it makes the scenario more random and less tactical (ships move randomly wathever you do.
This said, I would like a clarification from Mike: which of the three cases below is the right way to play.
A) All steps are mandatory, although deciding to play the "you may" part of the step is optional. Powers that are referring to "before", "during" or "after" a step always kicks of (since all steps always exist).
B) Steps are really optional: i. e. they only exist if you decide so. Note that you can decide that the step exists and then decide not to give a card, move or encounter by virtue of the "you may". Powers that are referring to "before", "during" or "after" a step only kicks of if you decide that the step exists. If not they do not apply by virtue of golden rule saying that if a power refers to something that isn't there...
C) Steps are really conditional: i. e. they only exist if you decide to fulfill the "you may" part of it. Powers that are referring to "before", "during" or "after" a step only kicks of in that case. If not they do not apply by virtue of golden rule saying that if a power refers to something that isn't there...
For example, let's say I have a power that says I must do X once per step, and a scenario (like the Devil's Pallor) that says I have to do Y after the move step.
Case A) : I MUST do X and Y and I may move
Case B) : I can do {no X, no Y and no move} or {I MUST do X and Y and I may move}
Case C) : I can do {no X, no Y and no move} or {I MUST do X and Y and move}
Interestning no? Yes I'm into mathmatics too...
Don't bite me Mike, I promise no more than one can of worms per week.
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C) Steps are really conditional: i. e. they only exist if you decide to fulfill the "you may" part of it. Powers that are referring to "before", "during" or "after" a step only kicks of in that case. If not they do not apply by virtue of golden rule saying that if a power refers to something that isn't there...
Unofficially, that. If you don't move, you can't do something "during your move step."
However, a card that invokes a step in which you haven't done anything creates the step. So "During your move step, you may examine a card" or "After your move step, you die" will occur even if you don't move.
But this is tricky, and I would not be shocked if Vic finds a reason I need to adjust my thinking.
C) Steps are really conditional: i. e. they only exist if you decide to fulfill the "you may" part of it. Powers that are referring to "before", "during" or "after" a step only kicks of in that case. If not they do not apply by virtue of golden rule saying that if a power refers to something that isn't there...Unofficially, that. If you don't move, you can't do something "during your move step."
However, a card that invokes a step in which you haven't done anything creates the step. So "During your move step, you may examine a card" or "After your move step, you die" will occur even if you don't move.
But this is tricky, and I would not be shocked if Vic finds a reason I need to adjust my thinking.
Thanks Mike. So indeed in the Devil's scenario ships do move at each turn... Unless Vic...
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Chief Technical Officer
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C) Steps are really conditional: i. e. they only exist if you decide to fulfill the "you may" part of it. Powers that are referring to "before", "during" or "after" a step only kicks of in that case. If not they do not apply by virtue of golden rule saying that if a power refers to something that isn't there...Unofficially, that. If you don't move, you can't do something "during your move step."
However, a card that invokes a step in which you haven't done anything creates the step. So "During your move step, you may examine a card" or "After your move step, you die" will occur even if you don't move.
But this is tricky, and I would not be shocked if Vic finds a reason I need to adjust my thinking.
Hmm. The practical translation of what Mike just said is really this: "If anything cares about a step existing, it exists." Therefore, a step could only *not* exist when it doesn't matter whether it exists or not. And since I think it's easier to remember if all the steps exist all the time, it might as well just always exist.
C) Steps are really conditional: i. e. they only exist if you decide to fulfill the "you may" part of it. Powers that are referring to "before", "during" or "after" a step only kicks of in that case. If not they do not apply by virtue of golden rule saying that if a power refers to something that isn't there...Unofficially, that. If you don't move, you can't do something "during your move step."
However, a card that invokes a step in which you haven't done anything creates the step. So "During your move step, you may examine a card" or "After your move step, you die" will occur even if you don't move.
But this is tricky, and I would not be shocked if Vic finds a reason I need to adjust my thinking.
Hmm. The practical translation of what Mike just said is really this: "If anything cares about a step existing, it exists." Therefore, a step could only *not* exist when it doesn't matter whether it exists or not. And since I think it's easier to remember if all the steps exist all the time, it might as well just always exist.
If you are suggesting something like "The steps aren't optional, but the only steps that have required actions are 'Advance the Blessing Deck' and 'End Your Turn', while the other steps contain actions that you may or may not take at your discretion" then I'd agree, that would be easier. There doesn't really seem to be a benefit to the step not existing, at least not that I can think of.
On the subject of whether steps need to exist or not, I'd like to belatedly point out the scenario rule for "On The Horizon":
At the end of your move step, if you did not move, bury a card.
Right, that's what I mean about "a card that invokes a step in which you haven't done anything creates the step."*
But what I also mean is: "after you move" and "after you give a card" do not create the existence of their steps if you didn't do that thing. So a card that says "After you move, you die" does not mean you die after your move step if you don't move.
And what I also mean is: a poorly timed summoned Ghoul can launch you from the beginning of your move step to your end of turn, with no explore step in between. So a location that said "At the start of your explore step, recharge a card" would not trigger if you were Ghouled. So don't get Ghouled then.**
Everything exists when it needs to, even if nothing happens when it does. Otherwise, you can just move past it. But as Vic says, the game won't be different in any way if you just play that steps always exist unless something takes them away.
Mike
*Note that the Obsidian game must allow all steps to exist whenever they can, because the game needs to find out whether you want to do something every time you can.***
**And to avoid this tomfoolery, we will likely never write a card that summons a Ghoul during your move step.
***Ghouls notwithstanding. Great, now you've got me nesting footnotes.
Can't we cast Detect Evil during Give a Card to fight a ghoul? Then do we skip steps until End of Turn or do we just do nothing in each of these steps due to paralysis?
Right, that's what I mean about "a card that invokes a step in which you haven't done anything creates the step.
But what I also mean is: "after you move" and "after you give a card" do not create the existence of their steps if you didn't do that thing. So a card that says "After you move, you die" does not mean you die after your move step if you don't move....
***Ghouls notwithstanding. Great, now you've got me nesting footnotes.
Thanks everyone. To sumarize we are in my A) case : steps always exist whether you use them or not (choice you only have if the wording of the step starts by "You may"),
So power/condition that says "after your move step" always trigger (unless something clearly says that this turn the step does not exist), whether power/condition that says "after you move" triggers only if you did move.Makes a lot of sense... Although may be best to replace in the rules "steps are optional" by "you are not required do do any action during those steps".
Mike, sorry again for all the footnotes...
Although may be best to replace in the rules "steps are optional" by "you are not required do do any action during those steps".
Maybe so.
Sold! Rethinking of it, I guess you are right. Too bad, because it makes the scenario more random and less tactical (ships move randomly wathever you do.
I kind of disagree here about making it less tactical. When I played, I found that the most important part was to save a bunch of explores for when the ships ran into each other. I guess I feel that not having them move if you don't move just means everyone stays where they are as long as the ships aren't together, and move whenever they're at the Sea Chanty. There doesn't seem to be much strategy there, in my opinion. With them moving constantly, there's much more preparation for future turns, and needing to be ready to do a super-turn if you absolutely must find the henchman now! I'm sure this is just a case of YMMV, though.
Sold! Rethinking of it, I guess you are right. Too bad, because it makes the scenario more random and less tactical (ships move randomly wathever you do.I kind of disagree here about making it less tactical. When I played, I found that the most important part was to save a bunch of explores for when the ships ran into each other. I guess I feel that not having them move if you don't move just means everyone stays where they are as long as the ships aren't together, and move whenever they're at the Sea Chanty. There doesn't seem to be much strategy there, in my opinion. With them moving constantly, there's much more preparation for future turns, and needing to be ready to do a super-turn if you absolutely must find the henchman now! I'm sure this is just a case of YMMV, though.
You may be right. I'll have to test both cases.