Getting your Con score to 11: How to do it

[sspitfire1]

If you are not trained in Miner and don't want to waste the Exp on it:

Great Fortitude 2
Toughness 2
Bravery 2
Bullwark 2
Fortitude 3
HP 6
Evangelist 5
Crusader 5
Healer 5
Dragoon 5
Unbreakable 5

Final Con: 11.009
Final Exp Cost: 19,846
Total Days: 8.25

Training a bunch of armor feats you don't need is a bit silly; but this is the best way to do it for Fighters and Clerics

If you have Miner 6 already...

Great Fortitude 2
Toughness 2
Bravery 2
Fortitude 2
HP 6
Evangelist 5
Crusader 5
Healer 5
Dragoon 5
Unbreakable 5

Final Con: 11.106
Final Exp Cost: 16,499*
Total Days: 6.9*

*Does not include the Exp cost of attaining Miner 6

[Lam]

There are some achievement requirements that a miner harvester maybe avoiding!

[Xeen]

Thats way too much cross class training... especially for 1 con point.

[DeciusBrutus]

Yes, it's widely known that the current matrix has problems with ability scores. I expect that the problems will be different next week, and the week after.

[celestialiar]

I'm gonna say this, and you can disagree, but I don't see why you can't get the necessary con score to keep pushing your mining by just doing mining and one craft (like smelting...)

This achievement stuff is too much. Ability scores now are even more of an issue.

There's no reason why you have to cross train as a fighter to mine. I'm upset at the ability of cross training required in all crafting, but hitting ability scores where you have to spend a week cross training... that's gonna make me pull out my hair.

I implore GW to rethink their achievement/ability score tree.

Edit: Incase this is unclear, the reason it makes me upset is because that's only for the first tier of score. If you get up to miner 15 or whatever, you will have to do probably a month of cross training.

[sspitfire1]

Yes yes and yes, and, to top it all off, I think my efforts to verify the first approach above are going to fail. The game's feat system is way out of whack from what the tables Stephen has been providing us say, and even when they get put back in to alignment, there may still be some tweaking required around Con, in particular.

[celestialiar]

Yeah, it's soured me. I can't do it. I already wasted some exp that I had saved... even if it's necessary, I don't want to waste any more. So I'll stay as wonderful miner 6. Maybe branch into new crafts or gathers.

[sspitfire1]

Honestly I hope Stephen digs into the live tables and straightens them out for us for the next patch so we can break through this cap. Just moving that 11 ability score requirement back to level 8 (or level 8 equivalent), where it is supposed to be, will alleviate much of the need for the cross classing.

[sspitfire1]

I have a 10.81 after meeting all the items on the first list above.

Time to start mining and see if that doesn't get me the last bit.

Update: Mining 6 got me the last bit.

It is worth noting that adding Miner 5 only added 0.097 points instead of the listed 0.102. This slight little bit shaved off from all of the feats would explain why I couldn't hit Con 11 with the initial list above.

[Gol Tink]

The Shield attacks still give you a bit of Con, don't they? Maybe have a look there as well.

[Dazyk]

The only problem with this is the Achievement gate. For Unbreakable 5 you need Martial 9, for Healer and Evangelist you need Divine 9.

Also, for Fortitude bonus 3 you need Martial or Divine 13; same with Bulwark and Bravery, I assume.

[sspitfire1]

Gol Tink wrote:

The Shield attacks still give you a bit of Con, don't they? Maybe have a look there as well.

NO THEY DO NOT. They would give a bump at level 3 of the attacks; but level 3 is gated by a minimum 12 con requirement (the requirement under the old system for level 3).

[sspitfire1]

Dazyk wrote:

The only problem with this is the Achievement gate. For Unbreakable 5 you need Martial 9, for Healer and Evangelist you need Divine 9.

Also, for Fortitude bonus 3 you need Martial or Divine 13; same with Bulwark and Bravery, I assume.

I had no problem drumming up these achievements in about 3 hours total gameplay time. To be honest, they are quite reasonable for what they are and are only a minor nuisance compared to having to spend 11 days worth of Exp on a bunch of things your character will never use for a single bump to Con.

[celestialiar]

^ Div 9-13 is no joke haha.

[KoTC Edam Neadenil]

celestialiar wrote:

^ Div 9-13 is no joke haha.

Its not that hard now skeletons are a separate tree.

For Divine 9:
Divine Focus kills 3 = 6 points
Skeleton Kills 2 = 3 points

For Divine 13:
Divine Focus kills 4 = 10 points
Skeleton Kills 2 = 3 points

Note that the skelo kills do not even need to be with the focus (though if they are they count towards both achievements). This is a good thing as they are immune to Touch of Darkness the main cleric damage dealer.

[celestialiar]

KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:

celestialiar wrote:

^ Div 9-13 is no joke haha.

Its not that hard now skeletons are a separate tree.

For Divine 9:
Divine Focus kills 3 = 6 points
Skeleton Kills 2 = 3 points

For Divine 13:
Divine Focus kills 4 = 10 points
Skeleton Kills 2 = 3 points

Note that the skelo kills do not even need to be with the focus (though if they are they count towards both achievements). This is a good thing as they are immune to Touch of Darkness the main cleric damage dealer.

I must be doing something wrong because I am at lvl 5 on focus kills and I still don't have the 6 points I need to advance.

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

That is odd. I was able to buy things requiring Divine 6 as soon as I hit Focus Expert 3, but that was before the latest patch; perhaps something changed behind the scenes?

[KoTC Edam Neadenil]

celestialiar wrote:

KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:

celestialiar wrote:

^ Div 9-13 is no joke haha.

Its not that hard now skeletons are a separate tree.

For Divine 9:
Divine Focus kills 3 = 6 points
Skeleton Kills 2 = 3 points

For Divine 13:
Divine Focus kills 4 = 10 points
Skeleton Kills 2 = 3 points

Note that the skelo kills do not even need to be with the focus (though if they are they count towards both achievements). This is a good thing as they are immune to Touch of Darkness the main cleric damage dealer.

I must be doing something wrong because I am at lvl 5 on focus kills and I still don't have the 6 points I need to advance.

Then you have 15 points just from focus before adding any skeleton based points you acquired with the recent patch. You probably hav enough Divine points to learn most level 3 spells.

I very much suspect you have the Divine points to advance but have overlooked some other requirement like power or divine attack bonus.

[sspitfire1]

So back to the topic at hand, I was thinking about it and I think that Con needs to be treated differently from the other ability scores since so few feats actually give any bonuses to it (i.e. Feats that do boost Con should boost it faster and sooner than others).

The goal of any ability score advancement should be to allow a role that depends on that ability score to be able to achieve level 20 without having to cross-class. Cross-classing should strictly be at the purview of the player, not a requirement of the advancement system.

Ability score requirements are gatekeepers just like Achievements; but they serve a slightly different function. Achievements are meant to keep a player from creating the character, not logging in for a year, then logging in and being pseudo-uber without doing any work. Ability score requirements are meant to ensure a player doesn't just run straight up to max level on a feat without properly paying mind to other, related abilities to that feat and that role.

Does that sound agreeable?

[KoTC Edam Neadenil]

sspitfire1 wrote:

So back to the topic at hand, I was thinking about it and I think that Con needs to be treated differently from the other ability scores since so few feats actually give any bonuses to it (i.e. Feats that do boost Con should boost it faster and sooner than others).

The goal of any ability score advancement should be to allow a role that depends on that ability score to be able to achieve level 20 without having to cross-class. Cross-classing should strictly be at the purview of the player, not a requirement of the advancement system.

Ability score requirements are gatekeepers just like Achievements; but they serve a slightly different function. Achievements are meant to keep a player from creating the character, not logging in for a year, then logging in and being pseudo-uber without doing any work. Ability score requirements are meant to ensure a player doesn't just run straight up to max level on a feat without properly paying mind to other, related abilities to that feat and that role.

Does that sound agreeable?

Of course.

I suspect the current broken ability tables are the result of a "quick fix" implemented because some people disliked ability requirements at low level at all and they just need adjusting.

BTW -- does training expendables bump ability scores ?

[Urman]

sspitfire1 wrote:

So back to the topic at hand, I was thinking about it and I think that Con needs to be treated differently from the other ability scores since so few feats actually give any bonuses to it (i.e. Feats that do boost Con should boost it faster and sooner than others).

Stephen has said elsewhere that commoner or expert feats will substantially help with Con, once they're implemented.

[sspitfire1]

That would be good; but the current set up is actually terrible for Wizards (or any non-Fighter Role, really) trying to make their way up the HP tree. Armor Feats, mind you, is where the differences in HP really come out between the roles.

The issue is simple: For HP and Recovery Bonus, Stephen has the curve a little too steep and the benefits starting too late. On the current setup, a Wizard trying to get an 11 Con so they can gain access to HP 8 will come up a full half a point short without some serious cross-classing. By simply redistributing 0.25 points from the top of the advancement to the bottom of the advancement in the HP branch and the Recovery branch, you just about solve all the issues for a Wizard straight through to level 20 (or any character, for that matter).

Of course I made a few more tweaks to make sure the advancement really does work all the way through to HP 20 without major difficulty on the part of the Wizard.

@Stephen: the adjusted tables for your consideration are here.

The Recovery Feat is under the Saves Tab

[Urman]

Just wondering - should Wizards have to struggle a little to get hp? In TT, don't the fighters have about twice the hp even before Con bonuses?

[sspitfire1]

Not like this, no. This kind of struggle requires wizards to do something like what we have above just to reach an 11 con. Maybe for reaching the highest levels, yes. But there I am not sure what Stephen had in mind.

Again, it is in the Armor Feats where the different roles really get different levels of HP. Binder, for example, requires Cloth Armor and gives all of 25 HP per keyword as a HP bonus. Chameleon, by contrast, requires Light Armor and gives 35 HP per KW while Archer requires Medium Armor and gives 55 HP per keyword.

Moreover, the HP table has a max Con requirement of 15, which implies it is meant to be attainable by non-Fighter/Cleric classes (they both have Armor Feats and Fortitude that boost their Con).

[KoTC Edam Neadenil]

It is currently broken. That is definite. No arguments.

However we do need to be careful not to have the devs running around making big time consuming temporary changes so the Alpha is more fun when in fact the problems would have sorted themselves out naturally down the track.

If all that is needed is a quick easy table update then I am all for it.

[<Kabal>Keign]

I think there is a definite need for some numbers to be rebalanced - and when more skills are in to help round out ability score gains, that should help tremendously.

That said, I've been thinking it might be a good idea for the devs to determine what an ability score point is worth (in XP) and make a series of feats designed only to increase them. I would vote for this being an expensive, but achievement-free option. I think it would be especially useful for characters who do not want to cross-train for roleplay purposes. (Or simply for a cleaner looking feat list.)

[Being]

An advantage to counting the final blow as the significant one should work well for the Cleric in that he can pull with a long range spell/orison, then beat the skeleton down in melee, and only switch to focus for the coup d' gras to gain the focus kill.

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

I tried that switching for a time, but it was more difficult than I liked to judge the moment to change, so I decided to go all-focus instead, and it's seemed fine, if notably slower. I'm also enjoying not juggling between two weapons.

[Proxima Sin of Brighthaven]

Definitely needs a rebalancing so every single charachter isn't required to spend a week or three cross training to go up every single level.

But balance that out for the EE game (which we should be seeing by the last week of alpha), not for the immediate play experience in alpha.

[Being]

I don't believe we have seen all that will be. It may simply be the case that parts of the game that aren't implemented will address the problem we fear. Or not, and we will have to badger the devs to reconsider, to develop a good plan to implement.

I wonder what portion of the whole is MVP?

[sspitfire1]

Certainly. I think someone else pseudo-pointed to part of the reason why the current ability advancement for HP leaves Wizard-types a full 1/2 of a point shy of being able to go anywhere beyond HP 7: Stephen created a quick fix for the old system and hasn't had time to fine tune the new one- never mind the additional feats that are not yet even in the data tables the devs have shared with us.

I would like to see the current fubar nature of feat advancement in the live game corrected and put back in line with the information the devs have provided us with in time for the next patch. But I don't expect Stephen to rebalance or fine tune the system, as a whole or in part, until it would be meaningful to do so.

[celestialiar]

KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:

celestialiar wrote:

KoTC Edam Neadenil wrote:

celestialiar wrote:

^ Div 9-13 is no joke haha.

Its not that hard now skeletons are a separate tree.

For Divine 9:
Divine Focus kills 3 = 6 points
Skeleton Kills 2 = 3 points

For Divine 13:
Divine Focus kills 4 = 10 points
Skeleton Kills 2 = 3 points

Note that the skelo kills do not even need to be with the focus (though if they are they count towards both achievements). This is a good thing as they are immune to Touch of Darkness the main cleric damage dealer.

I must be doing something wrong because I am at lvl 5 on focus kills and I still don't have the 6 points I need to advance.

Then you have 15 points just from focus before adding any skeleton based points you acquired with the recent patch. You probably hav enough Divine points to learn most level 3 spells.

I very much suspect you have the Divine points to advance but have overlooked some other requirement like power or divine attack bonus.

Exceptionally doubtful.

I did farm some skeles tho, so I got like 3 or so ranks in skele. I should have 6 points either way. I will be surprised if I have 13 divine tho, but that would be awesome. Then I could spend some of my 30,000 exp.

Edit: wow. So whatever happened between going up to focus 4 and getting 3 ranks in skeles did net me manypoints. I think I ended up going from not bein able to train because of not having 6 to 20+ points.

editedit: nah, less than 18, I guess. I did have to spend all of my 30,000 to get an extra wis point :(:( Soon to be cleric six...!

[celestialiar]

sspitfire1 wrote:

So back to the topic at hand, I was thinking about it and I think that Con needs to be treated differently from the other ability scores since so few feats actually give any bonuses to it (i.e. Feats that do boost Con should boost it faster and sooner than others).

The goal of any ability score advancement should be to allow a role that depends on that ability score to be able to achieve level 20 without having to cross-class. Cross-classing should strictly be at the purview of the player, not a requirement of the advancement system.

Ability score requirements are gatekeepers just like Achievements; but they serve a slightly different function. Achievements are meant to keep a player from creating the character, not logging in for a year, then logging in and being pseudo-uber without doing any work. Ability score requirements are meant to ensure a player doesn't just run straight up to max level on a feat without properly paying mind to other, related abilities to that feat and that role.

Does that sound agreeable?

Also double post: heh I'm for them adding in a flat BUY A CON POINT feat. Or whatever. If that's how they wanna do it. I'd rather it not affect things though... I mean, the diminishing to 0 under x makes little sense. If you are getting class lvls you should be gaining ability scores. Same with crafter levels (given the tedium.)

[KoTC Edam Neadenil]

I am simply not bothering.

My main is a mish-mash of random stuff and does not care at all.

My craft alts are simply sitting at level 6 in their respective trades, doing the odd cheap crosscraft to pick up craft points and accumulating XP and they will level to 7 if and when it becomes more practical.

[Proxima Sin of Brighthaven]

But that's playing the alpha context. Sooner or later we have the EE game when level 7 and 8 are soon very practical, and what a lot of people are clammoring for is clarification of the unsettling unknown and prospect we'd have to spend 75% of our xp going up one attribute and 25% on the abilities we really wanted then have to do it again.

[Xeen]

sspitfire1 wrote:

Gol Tink wrote:

The Shield attacks still give you a bit of Con, don't they? Maybe have a look there as well.

NO THEY DO NOT. They would give a bump at level 3 of the attacks; but level 3 is gated by a minimum 12 con requirement (the requirement under the old system for level 3).

Also Shield Expert does not work, so you will never get past level 1

[Xeen]

sspitfire1 wrote:

Dazyk wrote:

The only problem with this is the Achievement gate. For Unbreakable 5 you need Martial 9, for Healer and Evangelist you need Divine 9.

Also, for Fortitude bonus 3 you need Martial or Divine 13; same with Bulwark and Bravery, I assume.

I had no problem drumming up these achievements in about 3 hours total gameplay time. To be honest, they are quite reasonable for what they are and are only a minor nuisance compared to having to spend 11 days worth of Exp on a bunch of things your character will never use for a single bump to Con.

So your saying that we have to grind for 3 hours to get a con point?

I am already at a stopping point for my characters... Cannot get the uncommon +0's for my crafting. Having a hard time getting any bumps to dex for my rogue, and having a hard time getting any bumps to con or str for my fighter... What a joke...

[Jo Jampa]

Xeen wrote:

Cannot get the uncommon +0's for my crafting.

Not sure I understand this one .. I thought I wasn't getting credit for uncommon (or common) +0 in a couple of refining/crafting trees because it didn't appear on my completed tab but it appears they are being counted in some cases at least even if not listed. So perhaps a bug in either accounting or reporting? It is still alpha and this is to be expected.

[Giorgo]

To OP: No, do not want to be forced to follow a guide to learn how to raise a point in Con. There has to be a better way.

[Xeen]

Jo Jampa wrote:

Xeen wrote:

Cannot get the uncommon +0's for my crafting.

Not sure I understand this one .. I thought I wasn't getting credit for uncommon (or common) +0 in a couple of refining/crafting trees because it didn't appear on my completed tab but it appears they are being counted in some cases at least even if not listed. So perhaps a bug in either accounting or reporting? It is still alpha and this is to be expected.

In all honesty I am not sure what I need there. My crafter has some Uncommon +0 achievements but not for armor, weapon, or leather. For armor I have crafted one of everything in the list and nothing. For weapons, I have done a lot of them, but I picked up a lot of recipes, and for leather I have also crafted one of everything. I cannot advance any to next level, and it lists the achievement of (crafting type) Tier 1 Uncommon +0 as the reason for each one.

[Xeen]

Either way, I cannot advance any of my characters without grinding another class for attributes, or figuring out what the Uncommon +0 item I need to craft is.

So Achievements were supposed to be used as gating for players who do not play... and I have hit that wall. Attributes, need to be put back to the previous version, with some tweaks for a focus in a class, so we can actually advance.

[sspitfire1]

sspitfire1 wrote:

So back to the topic at hand, I was thinking about it and I think that Con needs to be treated differently from the other ability scores since so few feats actually give any bonuses to it (i.e. Feats that do boost Con should boost it faster and sooner than others).

The goal of any ability score advancement should be to allow a role that depends on that ability score to be able to achieve level 20 without having to cross-class. Cross-classing should strictly be at the purview of the player, not a requirement of the advancement system.

Ability score requirements are gatekeepers just like Achievements; but they serve a slightly different function. Achievements are meant to keep a player from creating the character, not logging in for a year, then logging in and being pseudo-uber without doing any work. Ability score requirements are meant to ensure a player doesn't just run straight up to max level on a feat without properly paying mind to other, related abilities to that feat and that role.

Does that sound agreeable?

The devs haven't commented on this thread, but I think it is safe to assume that this is what they have in mind and that, once feat advancement is complete, we won't have to multi-class in order to advance in a single role.

[Xeen]

I did find what the uncommons are, but... I have crafted a couple, will need to bug report it tonight.

[Tacticslion]

Arg! Fooled by yet another PFO thread! *shakes fist*
Someday I will learn to ignore interesting looking threads at the side of the screen...
(Not that PFO isn't interesting, I just am not a play tester...)
EDIT: fixing autocorrect. No one here (save possibly me) is a fool, I wouldn't say. Apologies for how that read! Autocorrreeeeect! *shakes fist again!*

[Xeen]

Want to be?

[Tacticslion]

Sorry, I just saw this.

The answer is, "Yes, but..."

- time
- money (mostly this)
- family (see also: time and money)

... as most of my free time and money goes into family things (a fair bit of which is actually TTRPGs)...

... but that won't stop me from listening to your words and considering (while talking things over with my wife). :)

[Being]

Perhaps the wife might be interested in joining us? If so there are more than one alpha slot available, and the alpha backers and 'hidden backers' apparently have taken care of the money element, at least until early enrollment...

[Tacticslion]

Hm. It's tough to say.

She actually works a lot (a perfectionist + highschool teacher = very, very little time) so we're pretty protective of the time we have.

As I said, though, I'm willing to hear information and not shutting things down just because. I didn't particularly want to derail the thread with my personal things - it was mostly a stray comment after the fifth or sixth of these kinds of threads (interesting titles that I presumed were about the PnP... nope!) that I've clicked on that have continued staying in my "new posts" line.

If you wanted to direct me to another thread with information (so this one can stay on track) or PM me, I'd be interested in hearing what anyone has to say.

No promises, but definitely will have my "listening ears" on, as I say to my son. :)

Thanks! (And sorry for the derail!)

[Being]

Ah! Yay teachers! Well then she should know that it is therapeutic to role play, and sharing a hobby does lead to close quality time... <hint hint nudge nudge>

[KoTC Edam Neadenil]

Xeen wrote:

I did find what the uncommons are, but... I have crafted a couple, will need to bug report it tonight.

Some of the uncommons give common achievments and visa versa.

I smelted +3 copper which should be uncommon and got a bump to +3 for my common achievment instead.