If someone has the capability, running this on a VTT and streaming or recording it for posterity could be fun. :)
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Prove it Kirth. Come join the challenge
The "challenge," if I read it correctly, is to follow the railroad and complete "X" number of encounters in a randomly-generated dungeon. My reply was that the true measure of class potential is the ability to refuse to ride the railroad, and skip those encounters. Again, I might be mistaken, but you seem to be coming back with a request for me to follow the railroad -- which, if accurate, sort of underlines the whole debate (if not, I apologize for the misconception and await clarification).
For example, "The goal is to clear the dungeon within a week" already sets things up so that you're expected to go traipsing in there, on an artificial timeline. The response I outlined, which fulfills the in-campaign goals, specifically ignores those parameters. And that's exactly why casters are powerful -- they have abilities allowing them to ignore parameters. Of course, as DM, one can artificially impose a scenario in which those abilities don't get highlighted -- one can set all dungeons in antimagic fields, too, but that's not a really meaningful test of class abilities overall.
In my opinion, the challenge should be worded in terms of the in-campaign situation: "Here's what we have; cope with the following," rather than, "Cope with the following in this manner according to this timeline."
The "challenge," if I read it correctly, is to follow the railroad and complete "X" number of encounters in a randomly-generated dungeon. My reply was that the true measure of class potential is the ability to refuse to ride the railroad, and skip those encounters. Again, I might be mistaken, but you seem to be coming back with a request for me to follow the railroad -- which, if accurate, sort of underlines the whole debate (if not, I apologize for the misconception and await clarification).Prove it Kirth. Come join the challenge
As long as skipped/bypassed encounters count as defeated encounters I don't see the problem.
As long as skipped/bypassed encounters count as defeated encounters I don't see the problem.
Edited above. As I read the challenge, sealing the entrances would technically be considered failure, since you didn't "clear the dunegeon" in the time frame given. Granted, it's a success in terms of what's happening in the game world, but it's a failure of the terms of the wording of the challenge.
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As long as skipped/bypassed encounters count as defeated encounters I don't see the problem.Edited above. As I read the challenge, sealing the entrances would technically be considered failure, since you didn't "clear the dunegeon" in the time frame given. Granted, it's a success in terms of what's happening in the game world, but it's a failure of the terms of the wording of the challenge.
Sealing the entrance says nothing about class or build. A human expert (mason) can manage that trick.
Sealing the entrance says nothing about class or build. A human expert (mason) can manage that trick.
And do what when the monsters break out? He gets eaten. On the other hand, you might actually read the scenario I'm referring to.
But not as thoroughly or as swiftly as a mage (of a certain level - prior to which the mage well be a mason himself, and there is no functional difference).
The thing is, the mason can't make it stick; the caster can. Sealed entrance + magic traps + tireless undead or planar bound guards + alarm spell + immediate response >> sealed entrance alone.
Hence "not as thoroughly or quickly" :)
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The thing is, the mason can't make it stick; the caster can. Sealed entrance + magic traps + tireless undead or planar bound guards + alarm spell + immediate response >> sealed entrance alone.
Anything that can dig through a stone wall can dig a tunnel leading to an entirely new exit. The only difference is time.
At mid to high level, that would include the ability of the trapped opponents to summon bound creatures, teleport, raise tireless undead, Stone Shape, Disintegrate, dispel your magical traps, and use any other tricks a player character might come up with.
It is a null argument. Anything a PC wizard can do, so can an NPC wizard, and the NPC BBEG is going to be higher level.
Anything a PC wizard can do, so can an NPC wizard, and the NPC BBEG is going to be higher level.
The fact that the BBEG always has to be a prepared full caster in order to be credible is, I think, fairly telling in itself.
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Anything a PC wizard can do, so can an NPC wizard, and the NPC BBEG is going to be higher level.The fact that the BBEG always has to be a prepared full caster in order to be credible is, I think, fairly telling in itself.
No, but you cannot play by two sets of rules and assume the PC is always a full caster but the NPC never is.
I suggested a non-magical solution that accomplished the same end, and you dismissed it as the PC's always having superior magical resources. If the assumption can be made for one side, it is equally valid for the other side.
I also pointed out a non-magical counter to your high level caster sealing the entrance: dig an escape tunnel. You ignored that with your attempt to start a martial/caster disparity argument.
You want to prove your point, run the simulator. Otherwise, you're arguing theorycraft with nothing to back your claims.
You want to prove your point, run the simulator.
With the simulator intentionally set up so that I'm not allowed to prove my point? Forgive me, but that seems like a fool's errand.
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You want to prove your point, run the simulator.With the simulator intentionally set up so that I'm not allowed to prove my point? Forgive me, but that seems like a fool's errand.
A simulator set up to run by the same conventions a typical game uses.
Your point fails under those conventions. It is only under unrestricted theorycraft that the full arcane casters has overwhelming power.
A simulator set up to run by the same conventions a typical game uses.
If a "typical game" requires everyone to obligingly stay on the rails and follow the script in order to function "correctly," I'm glad to play in atypical games.
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Not even close to being true. Just take a look at most modules and scenarios. After about level 7 most competent full casters can dispense with the need for a party. From level 10 onwards any of them can.You want to prove your point, run the simulator.With the simulator intentionally set up so that I'm not allowed to prove my point? Forgive me, but that seems like a fool's errand.A simulator set up to run by the same conventions a typical game uses.
Your point fails under those conventions. It is only under unrestricted theorycraft that the full arcane casters has overwhelming power.
At level 10, a party of monks or paladins can dispense with full casters and proceed at will. Casters are very easy encounters for either class to deal with. They are both self-healing and both are capable of very high AC.
You noted "a party", but andreww's implication was of an individual.
But also has difficulty shutting down 'appropriate' challenges while alone.
You either did not read Kirth's post, forgot what he said, or ignored it.
"Endurance Test" becomes irrelevant when the adventure is already completed.
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You need to read the thread title. DPR is not the only metric being measured.
Unfortunately, if you force people to walk into a dungeon and clear it, room by room, in a set time frame, you're not looking at much else. Even a hold person spell, by that measure, is nothing but instantaneous DPR.
The other factors -- the ones that actually make the upper tiers what they are -- aren't showcased in that sort of a setup.
Let me put it this way, Artanthos. You are very dedicated to the idea that there is no caster/martial disparity, or, if it is, it only functions in theory craft or under permissive GMs.
You are wrong.
There are scenarios in which non-casters can definitively take down casters, beat them, or outperform them.
I LIKE paladins and monks - both are cool, and the flavor is top notch, and the idea behind the mechanics of both is really cool.
The mechanics of paladins are excellent, but the alignment/fall debates are endless.
The mechanics of core monks suck tremendously compared to similar martials: they are not impossible to optimize, but they are difficult to make as effective. (Several archetypes are superior to the core monk, and those are pretty great).
Mages are easy to optimize accidentally, and lend themselves to it.
Their optimization comes from their ability to change the scenario that you are playing.
Monks and paladins can be tough, can be powerful, skillful, or persuasive, but, in the end, they are faced with the delimma set before them, and must engage it on it's terms. In this regard, especially paladins, do well. (Monks, unless you're Lorimmyr or play in a group that, consciously or not, caters to them, tend to be substantially behind the curve).
But a Mage (of an appropriate level) can explain kindly to the story that they don't need to play by it's rules. They do this with the rules as they are written and expressed in the book.
You are quite good at making builds that can overcome indivual challenges. That is great.
A Mage can make those challenges into non-challenges.
If you demand the Mage go through the challenge - I.e. Surrender the narrative power they have - you are naturally going to have underperforming mages. This is because they aren't using their power.
It would be similar to telling a paladin to go through a dungeon without using his smite evil ability. Sure, he could do so, and might do well, but he's deliberately not using his full capability.
The difference is that mages CHOOSE whether or not they have this narrative power, by way of spells known/prepared/written on a scroll. Thus, A GIVEN Mage may or may not have the narrative power.
But then again, a given Core rogue might not have stealth, perception, or good dexterity. It might even be a great rogue (as great as rogues get, anyway)! Suboptimal choices are still sub-optimal.
Similarly with mages.
"Go through a scenario where you can't use your best tactics or abilities" means, naturally, the Mage will comparatively underperform.
You either did not read Kirth's post, forgot what he said, or ignored it.
"Endurance Test" becomes irrelevant when the adventure is already completed.I read and understood it.
You need to read the thread title. DPR is not the only metric being measured.
When did I ever say that was all that was being measured?
You seem to be reading some things into an argument that aren't there.
(Apologies for formatting: iPads are... Awesome, but ugh sometimes.)
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You need to read the thread title. DPR is not the only metric being measured.Unfortunately, if you force people to walk into a dungeon and clear it, room by room, in a set time frame, you're not looking at much else. Even a hold person spell, by that measure, is nothing but instantaneous DPR.
The other factors -- the ones that actually make the upper tiers what they are -- aren't showcased in that sort of a setup.
In the scenario given, the time differential between a full caster, a barbarian and a monk is irrelevant. Encounters taking 60 seconds to resolve instead of 12 won't affect the outcome. Running out of spells or healing will. Failing that Fortitude save, not a wizard or sorcerer strong point, will.
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In the scenario given, the time differential between a full caster, a barbarian and a monk is irrelevant. Encounters taking 60 seconds to resolve instead of 12 won't affect the outcome. Running out of spells or healing will. Failing that Fortitude save, not a wizard or sorcerer strong point, will.
What Fort save? Kirth's point is that the wizard/sorcerer need not make the Fort save at all, because the entire encounter can be bypassed and thereby rendered moot.
That is the power of a "Tier 1" caster -- to rewrite the narrative of the module. The rogue can pick the locked door, the barbarian can smash it down -- but the wizard can bypass the door altogether.
In the scenario given, the time differential between a full caster, a barbarian and a monk is irrelevant.
One of the greatest strengths of full prepared casters is in a 1-day time differential -- i.e., their ability to switch out all their spells from day to day. The sheer opportunities this opens up are almost impossible to fathom with anything possessed by other classes. A wizard can vision and/or contact other plane, find out what to expect, then prepare spells focused on that exact challenge the next day. This isn't theorycraft; it's the way the class is intentionally designed. Refusing to use that ability is like saying the fighter can't use any weapons he has feats and/or training in, or saying the barbarian can't rage.
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Kirth, here's the problem.
You want to bypass the situation by sealing entrances. You have of course assumed that none of the creatures can get out.
In the 5th level set up, three of the encounters had burrowing speeds.
I've generated a few level ten encounters. I've gotten ethereal creatures, teleporting creatures, burrowing creatures, magic users.
Your answer doesn't do squat to complete the challenge.
In one scenario, there were 10 exits, five of which were in the lair of major encounters.
You have in fact determined that your Mage wins because the monsters have to follow the railroad you have designed. You have left off thinking that monsters can take actions outside your specific plan to trap them as well.
You also have no idea exactly how the place will be re inhabited. Maybe creatures burrow in, or teleport in, or it's a magical zone that resets it's structures.
Maybe the township wants to garrison it, the deadline may be purely political.
What you've effectively told me in your posts above is casters are really powerful if they don't play the game at all, but exist as nebulous NPCs that make up their own plots.
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To be fair, failing that will save is just as bad, and that usually ain't a martial strong point. I am unsure how often you really run out of healing or spells at higher levels; I can only recall one time I ran out of in combat healing as a life oracle, and technically we all had potions and wands left.In the scenario given, the time differential between a full caster, a barbarian and a monk is irrelevant. Encounters taking 60 seconds to resolve instead of 12 won't affect the outcome. Running out of spells or healing will. Failing that Fortitude save, not a wizard or sorcerer strong point, will.You need to read the thread title. DPR is not the only metric being measured.Unfortunately, if you force people to walk into a dungeon and clear it, room by room, in a set time frame, you're not looking at much else. Even a hold person spell, by that measure, is nothing but instantaneous DPR.
The other factors -- the ones that actually make the upper tiers what they are -- aren't showcased in that sort of a setup.
I was discussing Paladins and Monks, both are martial classes with very strong saves.
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In the scenario given, the time differential between a full caster, a barbarian and a monk is irrelevant. Encounters taking 60 seconds to resolve instead of 12 won't affect the outcome. Running out of spells or healing will. Failing that Fortitude save, not a wizard or sorcerer strong point, will.What Fort save? Kirth's point is that the wizard/sorcerer need not make the Fort save at all, because the entire encounter can be bypassed and thereby rendered moot.
That is the power of a "Tier 1" caster -- to rewrite the narrative of the module. The rogue can pick the locked door, the barbarian can smash it down -- but the wizard can bypass the door altogether.
He accomplished nothing that my example using a human expert with profession: mason did not duplicate. He just dismissed the mundane example.
He also refused to address the mundane counter-solution that bypassed his magic and screamed foul when I pointed out that the bad guys may also have casters.
I've generated a few level ten encounters. I've gotten ethereal creatures, teleporting creatures, burrowing creatures, magic users.
Now we're talking! That sounds a lot more interesting.
Although, on some level, waiting for me to post and then coming back with encounters specifically designed to prevent that approach doesn't seem entirely cricket. (Also, why would a bunch of teleporting creatures supported by spellcasters simply hole up in a lair like that and then just mindlessly maraud the immediate surroundings? That doesn't add up to me.)
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Kirth, here's the problem.
You want to bypass the situation by sealing entrances. You have of course assumed that none of the creatures can get out.
No, it's not an assumption. It's an example.
Bearing in mind that Kirth knows (via divination) exactly what the encounters are, he will be in a position to bypass the system by whatever means is appropriate to those encounters.
You have in fact determined that your Mage wins because the monsters have to follow the railroad you have designed.
No, the railroad is the GM's design. Basically, if he's a good enough diviner, he tells you "okay, hand me your notes, and go get yourself a cup of coffee."
When you come back -- as long as you're up, I take mine black, with no sugar -- he'll hand you a risk-free plan to neutralize it.
You also have no idea exactly how the place will be re inhabited.
Certainly he does. Diviner, remember?
You're playing a game with a diviner wizard, but your own cards are face up. And that is (part of the reason) why tier 1 casters break the game. are tier 1.
He also refused to address the mundane counter-solution that bypassed his magic and screamed foul when I pointed out that the bad guys may also have casters.
Artanthos, you specifically posited a prepared caster bad guy, fully-prepared at the start, and of much higher level than my single prepared caster PC. That's a recipe for failure. My response is to try diplomacy instead. As should every other character class'. I suspect the bard might survive, but not the monk.
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Kirth, here's the problem.
You want to bypass the situation by sealing entrances. You have of course assumed that none of the creatures can get out.
No, it's not an assumption. It's an example.
Bearing in mind that Kirth knows (via divination) exactly what the encounters are, he will be in a position to bypass the system by whatever means is appropriate to those encounters.
You have in fact determined that your Mage wins because the monsters have to follow the railroad you have designed.No, the railroad is the GM's design. Basically, if he's a good enough diviner, he tells you "okay, hand me your notes, and go get yourself a cup of coffee."
When you come back, he'll hand you a risk-free plan to neutralize it.
You also have no idea exactly how the place will be re inhabited.Certainly he does. Diviner, remember?
You're playing a game with a diviner wizard, but your own cards are face up. And that is (part of the reason) why tier 1 casters
break the game.are tier 1.
Demonstrate: go into the town with your spells prepared and start divining. Then act on that information in a timely manner.
Schrodinger's wizard looses a great deal of power when you have to write his stats and spells down.
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Schrodinger's wizard looses a great deal of power when you have to write his stats and spells down.
So, apparently, does Shroedinger's dungeon.
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I've generated a few level ten encounters. I've gotten ethereal creatures, teleporting creatures, burrowing creatures, magic users.Now we're talking! That sounds a lot more interesting.
Although, on some level, waiting for me to post and then coming back with encounters specifically designed to prevent that approach doesn't seem entirely cricket. (Also, why would a bunch of teleporting creatures supported by spellcasters simply hole up in a lair like that and then just mindlessly maraud the immediate surroundings? That doesn't add up to me.)
Yeah I know, this generator really seems to create old school dungeons. There's themes for them sometimes.
I've been playing with this site for a week or so now, so those things I mentioned above have been things I've seen in that week.
How's this for strange, in one dungeon, there were 4 dragons. Two blues and two copper or brass ( I forget which exactly). What's more, one of the metalic dragons is specifically hunting the party according to random generator. I found that pretty cool.
In another, it was a glacier where cold damage is constant, yet salamanders and fire mephitis popped up. I'd have had to write something about their rooms being not cold for that to make sense, but that might have been construed as breaking the rules of the challenge.
Any way, I'm generating the dungeons to be used on the day I make the threads. This Saturday. For all I know, your plan might work on the dungeon that gets generated.
If you have time, come and try it. Though it's an investment of some weeks I think.
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If you have time, come and try it. Though it's an investment of some weeks I think.
I have to admit, it sounds fun. When I write adventures I try and make sure everyone's location, abilities, followers, and motivations are all consistent and make sense, but as a player I sometimes get nostalgic for stuff like White Plume Mountain. Unfortunately, Miss Gersen Jr. is due any time now, so any participation on my part is likely to be cut shor
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Contact other plane won't get you the hand me yor notes thing.
No divination will.
Divination helps you prepare, for sure, but it's swingy and much of it comes down to the DM. Even contact other plane has a clause in there for DMs to just block it.
Others have wording about reasonable knowledge etc. That puts them purely in the domain of DM control. Some of them even allow for cryptic answers.
I've yet to see a player do this like you guys talk about. I'd be keen to see it done though, so come try the challenge.
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If you have time, come and try it. Though it's an investment of some weeks I think.I have to admit, it sounds fun. When I write adventures I try and make sure everyone's location, abilities, followers, and motivations are all consistent and make sense, but as a player I sometimes get nostalgic for stuff like White Plume Mountain. Unfortunately, Miss Gersen Jr. is due any time now, so any participation on my part is likely to be cut shor
Wow, what a great reason to have to miss out. Pass on the well wishes from the nerd community. :)
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... so any participation on my part is likely to be cut shor
Heheheh! Nice.
(Oh, and, uh, congratulations or something!)
((Tacticlsion Jr. 2 will be 'round in a few months himself to go with Tacticslion Jr.!))
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Maybe writing a program would be the best way to approach this?
As had been said, measuring a character's power really comes down to how he works in the party. What should the standard party be for consideration? Wizard/Rogue/Fighter/Cleric, plus your own character? Or would you take one of the classic four to have your character?
(Frodo Jr. is also about to enter the world :) )