Mimic and multiple grapples

[N N 959]

I know we all have this image of a treasure chest lashing out with multiple pseudopods...but where in the rules does it say a mimic who has grappled one foe with its slam attack is able to make another slam against a different individual?

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/mimic.html#mimic

There isn't even a mention of multiple limbs or pseudopods in the description.

[dragonhunterq]

Adhesive does the trick. There's nothing to say it is prevented from making slam attacks, and it doesn't have to check to maintain a grapple from a previous slam. Add to that slam doesn't specify a particular body part (pretty pointless with a shapechanger anyway but...).

[N N 959]

hmmm.

I agree that the rules say that someone stuck to the mimic cannot break free. However, the constrict ability says the creature must make a grapple check to do the damage. A grapple check is a Standard action. So if the mimic is constricting someone, it cannot take another attack.

I agree that the person is stuck regardless, but if the mimic does not make the grapple check, per RAW, there is no constrict damage.

While I agree that the grapple check is a formality, as the target is permanently grappled, it's not clear that the mimic gets the grapple check for free.

[Barachiel Shina]

No, it doesn't. Constricting takes time and the use of your body, or the appendages needed. You're not only focusing on keeping the victim from escaping, but also trying to crush them as well. Multiple enemies may be stuck to the mimic but it's only going to be capable of killing one before moving on to the next. Constricting deals damage plus the damage of the natural attack that caused the grapple.

You could always give it Grapple feat chain, getting it Greater Grapple and Rapid Grappler. It won't be able to constrict, but making 3 grapple checks a round can help it kill something quicker, or damage multiple enemies. That would mean for it to be a very tough mimic, of course, with high Hit Dice to even get the feats and their requirements.

[N N 959]

Barachiel Shina wrote:

Constricting deals damage plus the damage of the natural attack that caused the grapple.

Does that mean you have a CR4 creature doing 2d8+12 per hit? That seems waaaaaaaaay too much.

[FrodoOf9Fingers]

It's true, so long as the natural attack has the grab special ability.

[Jeff Merola]

N N 959 wrote:

Barachiel Shina wrote:

Constricting deals damage plus the damage of the natural attack that caused the grapple.

Does that mean you have a CR4 creature doing 2d8+12 per hit? That seems waaaaaaaaay too much.

An Orc Barbarian 2 is a CR 1 creature that does 1d12+13 on a hit.

[blahpers]

N N 959 wrote:

Barachiel Shina wrote:

Constricting deals damage plus the damage of the natural attack that caused the grapple.

Does that mean you have a CR4 creature doing 2d8+12 per hit? That seems waaaaaaaaay too much.

Nope, that's exactly right. Constrict deals damage above and beyond the other effects of the grapple, including the damage the mimic would already do by using the "damage" option while grappling. Mimics are nasty. There are other CR 4 creatures that can deal more damage, but few are guaranteed to maintain that damage once it starts.

[dragonhunterq]

I didn't say it grappled/constricted them as free action, that still requires a grapple action to deal damage. But it can give multiple opponents the grappled condition. That means among other things -4 dex, no using 2 handed weapons and concentration checks to cast spells. Even without the damage it can still slow a party right down. If it has an ally who can take advantage of that...

[N N 959]

Jeff Merola wrote:

N N 959 wrote:

Barachiel Shina wrote:

Constricting deals damage plus the damage of the natural attack that caused the grapple.

Does that mean you have a CR4 creature doing 2d8+12 per hit? That seems waaaaaaaaay too much.

An Orc Barbarian 2 is a CR 1 creature that does 1d12+13 on a hit.

An Orc barbarian has how many hit points? 20? 25? A mimic has 52. If it hits you, it auto grapples, and there's nothing you can do can break the grapple beyond killing it or dissolving the adhesive (fat chance of that for the average party). What's more, any weapon you hit with it requires a DC 17 ref save to keep from getting stuck.

You know what takes out an Orc Barbarian in round 1? Color Spray. By round 2, you can Sleep them.

A mimic can grapple all your meleer's, rob them of their weapons, and then constrict them to death with essentially no hope of them getting free....all while doing 2d8+12 per round.

The CR system is incredibly broken. In some cases, it amounts to disinformation.

[Jeff Merola]

Your initial complaint was a CR4 creature doing 2d8+12 per hit, not that it could do that and other things. There are plenty of other things that are a lot more dangerous than their CR suggests, Mimics aren't particularly noteworthy for that bit.

[N N 959]

My statement was obviously meant in the context of the mimic. A creature with 1 hp, and AC of 10, and that does 2d8+12 is not particularly scary.

Quote:

Mimics aren't particularly noteworthy for that bit.

Since I'm speaking in the context of a 2nd-4th level party, We'll have to disagree on that point. But I agree that an Orc Barbarian 2 as a CR 1 is certainly capable of TPKing a 1st level party with good rolls.

[Jeff Merola]

Things that are more dangerous that a 2-4th level party could face:
A shadow
A wight
A CR 4 Ghost
An allip
A devilfish
A gearsman robot

For most parties, all of those are far more dangerous than a mimic.

[N N 959]

Now you are just being mean to the mimic. Just because it's an aberration doesn't mean it has no feelings. The mimic is going to contact its union rep and demand a third party assessment.

[Gwen Smith]

dragonhunterq wrote:

I didn't say it grappled/constricted them as free action, that still requires a grapple action to deal damage. But it can give multiple opponents the grappled condition. That means among other things -4 dex, no using 2 handed weapons and concentration checks to cast spells. Even without the damage it can still slow a party right down. If it has an ally who can take advantage of that...

Wouldn't the mimic also have the grappled condition? It doesn't have Grab, and there's nothing else that says it can grapple without getting the grappled condition itself.

This is an interesting interplay of the grappling rules...

It doesn't say that mimic has multiple attacks, so it wouldn't be able to maintain the grapple and attack another creature at the same time. Also, the mimic does not have either the grab ability or Improved Grapple, so it would take an attack of opportunity every round it tries to maintain the grapple.

Also, it doesn't say that the target creature can't reverse the grapple, just that it can't break free.

Wow, this gets fun...
I have a 5th level tetori monk with +15 CMB and +35 CMD for grappling, and she does not take the Dex and attack penalties when grappling, and she can take AoOs while grappled as well. So a hypothetical encounter might go:

Round 1
The mimic hits the tetori, doing normal slam damage (1d8+6). She is automatically grappled, but she doesn't take the usual penalties. The Tetori just punches the mimic this round.

Round 2
Mimic rolls to maintain the grapple. Without Improve Grapple or Grab, it provokes an AoO on a grapple attempt, so the tetori takes an AoO. (Technically, the tetori gets an AoO on anyone without Greater Grapple, but that's not the issue here.)
With a +9 CMB and a +5 bonus for controlling the grapple, the mimic still needs a natural 20 to maintain the grapple. It fails, but the tetori is still grappled because of the adhesive (?). However, the mimic did not "make a successful grapple check", so it doesn't get constrict damage.
The Tetori decides to reverse the grapple. With the mimic at -4 Dex, she needs a 3 or higher to grapple the mimic, so we'll say she succeeds. Per SoP, she spends a ki point for +4 AC when grappling (because she's about to take the critter's full attack), which puts her at 26 AC.

Round 3
Mimic has no prayer of re-reversing the grapple (20-fishing again), so it tries to make a slam attempt, at -2 to attack (because grappled), so it's got +8 against the tetori's 26 and needs a 14 or higher to hit.

If it misses, the rest is easy:
The Tetori makes a grapple check at +15 CMB and a +5 bonus for controlling the grapple against the mimic's 18 CMD (20 with a -4 Dex penalty), so she maintains on anything but a 1. She pins the mimic, and it can't do anything else. Encounter is effectively over.

If it hits...
The mimic does normal damage, and "automatically grapples" the tetori. Now, technically, the tetori was already grappling it, and the mimic hasn't made a successful check to reverse or control the grapple...does this mean the mimic is automatically back in control of the grapple? I think it would be in control, so we cycle back to Round 1 and repeat ad nauseum.

Note that during the entire encounter, the mimic never once made a successful grapple check and therefore does not get to do the constrict damage.

Does that sound right?