Goblin Squad Member
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OK this is a REALLY basic question but I have not been able to get my head around this one.
I have a reasonable grasp of the way the system works for weapons. ( As you upgrade weapons and upgrade attacks/lvl-0-spells you get more keywords. Hence upgrading a weapon or staff/wand/battle-focus lets you make use of upgraded attacks and spells. With a basic +0 weapon you get no advantage from higher level attacks or spell levels. )
Ok what I am not clear on is how this works with spell books and divine focus.
I understand you need better spellbooks and divine focus to cast level 2 and level 3 spells that drop (though I cannot find any out of game resource that describes exactly what implement does what spell level).
However what is the inter-relationship between +1, +2 etc improvements and tiers with spell level? Presumably higher tiers effect the D200 chosen but what determines the spell level ?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Spell level correlates with the number of expendable keywords (level 1 has 1, level 9 has 9, etc.). Each matched expendable keyword adds 7 base damage. Unlike other sets of keywords there is no division between major and minor keywords; expendable keywords are all the same. Edit: expendable keywords add 1.4 effect power to their expendable while attack/defense keywords add 1 effect power/protection (4 for majors).
Keywords for expendables are matched to your class feature.
I'm not sure if it's the implement that determines the tier (ie. roll) used for expendables or if it's just based on the spell's level.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Better implements have no effect on the casting power of spells. What better implements do is allow you to slot higher level spells and more total levels of spells.
By better implements do you mean better types of implement ?
Can you even make a +1 or +2 spellbook? What does it change if you make one?
Basically, the spell system works exactly the same as the weapon/maneuver system for martial classes.
By that I mean that wands, staffs and foci do the same for cantrips and orisons as bows and swords do for physical attacks.
Spell Books do the same for spells as Trophy Implements do for maneuvers
What I would like to know is what does it take to get an implement (Spellbook, Holy Symbol, Rogue Kit or Trophy Charm) that allows you to use lvl 2 spells or maneuvers. I have several of those but can't use them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Basically, the spell system works exactly the same as the weapon/maneuver system for martial classes.
What I would like to know is what does it take to get an implement (Spellbook, Holy Symbol, Rogue Kit or Trophy Charm) that allows you to use lvl 2 spells or maneuvers. I have several of those but can't use them.
Yeah I have about 4 or 5 level 2/3 spells now. I have a spare unused alt I can train up as an iconographer and plenty of silver bars which seems to be the key ingredient for the divine focus, just unclear exactly what is the best to make.
For Implements, the recipe determines the max level and the + value determines the total number of levels.
Could you give us a "This is what the recipe would look like" example? I've heard that before but don't understand what it means.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Huh... thought I put the miscellaneous gear on the wiki sheets, but I apparently did not. I'll try to get that done sometime soon.
Implements pretty much only have three numbers of note:
* The max expendable level (can't be improved)
* The base total number of levels (at +0)
* The extra total levels gained per plus
So, for example (and this is close but not exact because I don't have my numbers in front of me), an implement might have max level 3, base total levels 6, extra total levels per plus 2.
No matter how much you upgrade it, you can't put a level 4 or better expendable on it, because it can only hold up to level 3.
If you make it at +0, you could put two level 3 expendables on it (which totals up to 6 levels), or a level 3, a level 2, and a level 1 (which also totals up to 6 levels). You could even put six level 1s on it if you wanted.
If you made it at +2, it would get 4 additional total levels (2 per plus), so it could hold 10 total levels. That gets you up to three level 3 expendables and a level 1, or some other combination of up to six expendables with levels totaling up to 10.
Wonderful. Thank you Mr. Cheney. Clarity is at hand now :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Huh... thought I put the miscellaneous gear on the wiki sheets, but I apparently did not. I'll try to get that done sometime soon.
Implements pretty much only have three numbers of note:
* The max expendable level (can't be improved)
* The base total number of levels (at +0)
* The extra total levels gained per plusSo, for example (and this is close but not exact because I don't have my numbers in front of me), an implement might have max level 3, base total levels 6, extra total levels per plus 2.
No matter how much you upgrade it, you can't put a level 4 or better expendable on it, because it can only hold up to level 3.
If you make it at +0, you could put two level 3 expendables on it (which totals up to 6 levels), or a level 3, a level 2, and a level 1 (which also totals up to 6 levels). You could even put six level 1s on it if you wanted.
If you made it at +2, it would get 4 additional total levels (2 per plus), so it could hold 10 total levels. That gets you up to three level 3 expendables and a level 1, or some other combination of up to six expendables with levels totaling up to 10.
oh ... that makes sense
Thanks for that!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Better implements have no effect on the casting power of spells.
This appears to be incorrect. Implements have a tier just like weapons, which affects the spells slotted. Eg. slotting a bunch of low level spells on a T1 implement vs slotting those same spells on a T2 implement will affect how much damage they do on average. Their max damage will remain the same (max damage is based on # of keywords matched to the slotted class feature and is f*(40+7k-r), f=damage factor, k is number of matched expendable keywords and r is target's relevant resistance), but the distribution of damage will change due to getting a better roll.
This tier can be seen by mousing over the item. Presumably access to the better rolls that come with higher tiers comes with the appropriate implement proficiency.
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Goblin Squad Member
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WHy are clerics limited to drops instead of a lll the divine spells appropriate to level, alignment, and deity as they can in PF TT? THis means that clerics can swap out utility and others as needed. Not as powerful as wizards, but more versatile.
AND, harder to implement, any spell could be replace on fly by a cure of same or lower level. No need to slot cures, just decide what to burn. Stock up on utility/buff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Biggest thing to remember: PFO is legally not allowed to try to duplicate all the features of tabletop Pathfinder, because of deliberate choices made when drafting the Open Gaming License (Hasbro's decision, not Ryan's fault). Once we accept that PFO can't duplicate all the features of the tabletop game, it's easier to accept each individual feature that doesn't match.
Next point - Right now implements work the same for all four roles. There's nothing to say that Goblinworks couldn't differentiate them later, but I think that using the same system four times is a very good labor-saving strategy for the Minimum Viable Product.
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Goblin Squad Member
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WHy are clerics limited to drops instead of a lll the divine spells appropriate to level, alignment, and deity as they can in PF TT? THis means that clerics can swap out utility and others as needed. Not as powerful as wizards, but more versatile.
AND, harder to implement, any spell could be replace on fly by a cure of same or lower level. No need to slot cures, just decide what to burn. Stock up on utility/buff.
Wizard spells work nothing like table top either. They do not write them to a spell book, cannot learn them from a borrowed or looted spell book.
There was a blog back around December that explained why they changed from the original plans to this system that matches what the fighters and archers and rogues get.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know they are not looking to balance, but to add restrictions, and remove benefits <has handicapping effects> on clerics. WHy are cleric orisons mainly limited to melee and 20 meter with very low impact.
spells and orisons are limited but benefits are denied. OK, this will work out before my DT plays. I had meant main to be cleric, but so much is not right and refiners are key, my main will be harvester/refiner (sage/iconographer).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know they are not looking to balance, but to add restrictions, and remove benefits <has handicapping effects> on clerics. WHy are cleric orisons mainly limited to melee and 20 meter with very low impact.
spells and orisons are limited but benefits are denied. OK, this will work out before my DT plays. I had meant main to be cleric, but so much is not right and refiners are key, my main will be harvester/refiner (sage/iconographer).
Yeah, but despite that I still tend to equip battle focus instead of normal melee weapons.
The ability to hit F1 and self heal a few times then switch back to melee combat means against anything but low level mobs (where I whirlwind them down as a one shot) its my preferred weapon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I've said in other threads, I'm quite pleased with my spell-casting Cleric, but I'm also not trying to solo my way across the map, killing anything that attracts my attention. I've found a mix of ranged and melee orisons that support one another well and provide Effects that I and others nearby--whether grouped or not--can take advantage of.
Two battle foci, one toolbar filled with harmful orisons, the other with helpful. It works well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I've said in other threads, I'm quite pleased with my spell-casting Cleric, but I'm also not trying to solo my way across the map, killing anything that attracts my attention. I've found a mix of ranged and melee orisons that support one another well and provide Effects that I and others nearby--whether grouped or not--can take advantage of.
Two battle foci, one toolbar filled with harmful orisons, the other with helpful. It works well.
Once i get proper heals I will probably run with longsword, longbow and divine focus for solo work.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Stephen: what determines the tier/roll used?
Turns out that it is, indeed, the implement. Makes continuing to use lower level expendables still somewhat viable at higher level; they don't keep up on keywords, but they're at least not going to massively miss all the time.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Actually that should be:
Biggest thing to remember: PFO is legally not allowed to try to duplicate all the features of tabletop Pathfinder, because of deliberate choices made when drafting the Open Gaming License (Ryan's decision, not Hasbro's fault).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Actually that should be:
Biggest thing to remember: PFO is legally not allowed to try to duplicate all the features of tabletop Pathfinder, because of deliberate choices made when drafting the Open Gaming License (Ryan's decision, not Hasbro's fault).
Considering the rolling disaster that later versions of D&D have become, I would say the OGL (faults and all) was the savior of TT gaming.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Considering the rolling disaster that later versions of D&D have become, I would say the OGL (faults and all) was the savior of TT gaming.
Maybe as an institution, but for as long as I can remember people have enjoyed and explored the potentials of 'make-believe' and 'pretend'. So long as there are human beings there will be RP.
Play is how human beings learn best. I don't see any reason to qualify that assertion. The best learners, children, are all about play. And if I look at how people play, the ability to pretend things, to imagine, to take on roles as if they were real are all inextricably integral with play.
The obstacles that make the hard sciences so challenging for most people is exactly, in my opinion, that there isn't much 'play' about them, and this is why math games and puzzles and the like are such important educational tools.