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I don't know about you guys, but the games I'm in are pretty much all humans, elves, and half-orcs. The other races, especially the small/slow ones just can't keep up (ha!) with the big three as a fit for most classes. Now, obviously, if you're only concern is role-playing, you can stop reading right here. However, some of us would like to see the core races balanced out in terms of power, versatility, and overall effectiveness.
So, here's my challenge: What would you change or add to the dwarf, gnome, and halfling to make them more appealing, appropriate, and effective for any class?
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remove racial favored class bonuses.
I have been following an assortment of PbP games, and they mostly have various races other than Human, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, and Elf. They seem to do okay. Try a visit to http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/tyler-s-pathfinder-guides/race-of-pathfi nder-an-optimization-guide.
I don't think I would change any of them. To me the Half elf and half orc don't do enough for me even mechanically.
So for Half orc, I would like to see their ferocity allow them to fight without being disabled at 0, and if dropped below 0 can fight on for 1 round without being disabled after which they start to die.
Heck it would be great if this allowed you to fight harder at or below 0 such as providing a +1 to attack. That would be neat. Atleast they have DV.
Half elf. I don't know, they just don't appeal to me mechanically. Can't figure a way to change them to my liking.
Not all races are created equal, nor should they be(I am only talking about Pathfiner here so please don't read that in the wrong way). Some races are better at certain jobs then others. I am not sure if every race should be equally suitable for every class or role.
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Play in a different group? I see all of the core races.
remove racial favored class bonuses.
This is really, in my opinion, one of the core issues in conjunction with the eternal sea of races that creep up in power level.
After the first lists of racial favored class bonuses started coming out, I asked my players if they had a problem with me limiting it to the standard (1 skill point or 1 hit point). They said go for it and I did. We've been quite happy with that (we don't use dwarves, halfings, or gnomes in my setting anyway, but still).
Making the rogue suck less would certainly encourage the return of the halfling rogue.
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Not all races are created equal, nor should they be(I am only talking about Pathfiner here so please don't read that in the wrong way). Some races are better at certain jobs then others. I am not sure if every race should be equally suitable for every class or role.
What I'd like to see is a situation in which you could play a gnome barbarian with a straight face. He might not do as much damage as a half-orc barbarian, but he's got sweet bonuses in other areas that make up for it and actually make him about as effective. Instead, we've got some races that are awesome for every class (humans, half-orcs, and to an extent, elves) and some races that are, at best, on par with those races in one or two classes.
For example, halflings make about as effective rogues as elves, but elves are also amazing wizards, witches, and alchemists. Let's fix that.
I don't know about you guys, but the games I'm in are pretty much all humans, elves, and half-orcs. The other races, especially the small/slow ones just can't keep up (ha!) with the big three as a fit for most classes. Now, obviously, if you're only concern is role-playing, you can stop reading right here. However, some of us would like to see the core races balanced out in terms of power, versatility, and overall effectiveness.
So, here's my challenge: What would you change or add to the dwarf, gnome, and halfling to make them more appealing, appropriate, and effective for any class?
I don't think every race is meant to be appealing, appropriate, and effective for any class. I also don't think there's anything wrong with that. There's some things the dwarf, gnome, and halfling are good at. Choose them for those things. The end.
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Never quite understood why, but halflings and gnomes having a 20 move has always amused me, since kobolds have a speed of 30 and always have in 3.x iterations. Size has no bearing on speed in the game, so far as I can tell. Is their speed slower because they just kinda mosey along everywhere, while kobolds run around like crackheads?
I'm sure it has something to do with an old MC entry or as a means to offset some of their "nicer" things, like excessive save bonuses for halflings (in my opinion).
Dumping those speed penalties would probably go a long way.
honestly, small races are just good options for spellcasters. your smaller and harder to hit and can hide easier.
Kobolds get an INT bonus as well. It just makes sense and makes them more viable PCs.
are you saying they should? because normally they don't. Man i hate that kobolds are so bad, both their traits and the feats and such are so poorly done they're just not fun without houserules.
Saying kobolds get an INT bonus in any game I GM. They seem like clever folk to begin with, the lack of interesting support and INT bonus has always bothered me. I feel like there should be decent favored class support or class features for wizardy kobolds and roguish kobolds.
honestly if their draconic connection is to be believed, they should get a plus to charisma.
anyway, I sort of change their stats to, +2 dex, +2 charisma -2 Strength.
draconic flight's special: you gain flight 30 in the paragon thing and not 30 base speed.
various other changes to make their RP much higher, in line with how goblins got buffed.
gnomes and halflings, you should never have both, IMO.
Ive Played two halflings in PF
A Halfling Barbarian and a Halfling fighter.
The rules for small weapons are dumb.
1e rules limited the size weapons a halfling could use, so they most often ran amok with a shortsword… but now halflings have to have a small longsword to do the same thing.
so if you find a medium shortsword, the halfling can't simply use it as if it was a longsowrd to him, oh no its not sized for him…
Clunky and prohibative… I think thats a major reason
Yeah I suppose I've always been a bit ambivalent to the draconic base stat being charisma. On one hand, dragon are the essence of magic, which goes towards getting at that ineffable notion which charisma represents. At the same time they seem smart, knowledgeable, and curmudgeonly. Like high INT, low CHA-type creatures.
charisma is more force of will (i really wish will saves were under charisma because of this), the ability to not give ground on your beliefs, to force the universe to accept your will, etc.
I have been following an assortment of PbP games, and they mostly have various races other than Human, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, and Elf. They seem to do okay.
I'm just talking about the core races here. Don't get me started on the power creep built into the expanded and rare races. :)
I am also including Core Races. Gnomes, Half-Orcs, and Half-Elves are a bit on the rare side in the various PbPs I have been following, but all of the other Core Races are pretty common. At a very rough guess I'd say the most common are Human, Elf, and an approximate tie between Dwarf and Halfling. Other popular ones are Tieflings (technically not Core, but they've been around long enough to be de facto Core), Aasimar (almost same deal as for Tieflings, except no equivalent of the obsolete Fiendish Heritage Feat), and Changelings (the only one of the "rare" Races that seems to be common); if you combined all the Elemental-Touched into 1 race, they'd be slightly popular too. Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, and Gnomes are fairly rare, but I have seen a few instances of each.
And the power creep in the expanded and rare races isn't as bad as it looks. Fetchlings, Suli, and Svirfneblin cost 17 RP, 16 RP, and 24 RP according to the Advanced Race Guide, but while they're not bad, they're not THAT good (and I have yet to see any), whereas the Elemental-Touched Races other than Suli are 6 RP to 7 RP, even though they aren't THAT MUCH worse than Suli. So it is more a case of the Race Point system being almost hopelessly broken. Apart from the non-Core Races that I mentioned above, the only other ones I have seen are Android (2 instances in 1 PbP of Iron Gods), Wyrwood (1 instance, from the same Iron Gods PbP), Earthborn Human (1 instance, from the same Iron Gods PbP), Hobgoblin (1 instance), Kobold (2 instance), nerfed Greater Medusa (1 instance, not covered in Paizo's Bestiaries, let alone by the Advanced Race Guide), and Dromite (1 instance, from Dreamscarred Press, not Paizo). If I manage to get into a PbP with the Dhampir character I have made (shameless plug here), that will be the first instance of Dhampir I have seen. Same for the Drow character I have made the backstory and personality but not yet a full-fledged character sheet for (another shameless plug here). Both of those characters and a Tiefling that has the backstory and personality but not yet a full-fledged character sheet (had to put in one more shamelsss plug) are what they are for roleplaying purposes, though, not optimization purposes, with all 3 being noticeably non-optimal.
I'm actually in a campaign right now where half the group is small sized, but it's 3.5. We've got two halflings, a tibbit (were-housecat), and two humans.
It depends on two things: players and setting. Sometimes player will gravitate towards a certain race regardless. The other part is settings supporting the flavor. To be honest, the lore for many races ends up feeling to specific or boring (and sometimes specifically boring).
The campaign I'm playing in right now just happens to support the concept I have for my current character both mechanically and setting wise.
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My biggest problems with the small folk are that they just aren't differentiated enough. Gnomes and Halflings both bet a STR penalty and a CHA bonus. Nothing else about them really suggests that one is better for a certain class than another.
I would've given Halflings a WIS bonus instead of a CHA bonus. Then they'd be the sensible, comtemplative, salt-of-the-earth types who make good clerics, druids, and monks, while gnomes would be the bombastic bards and sorcerers and occasionally the oddly impressionable barbarian.
In my group, we have more often human, half-elves and dwarves than any other choice. Almost every party have a dwarf in fact.
I really put this one out to subjective experiences. Although human by far tends to be the most common, some might say it's because of the feat, but the truth of the matter is that with most other races you have to have a concept that fits otherwise you fall back to human.
In fact in my years of gaming, a dwarf has come up twice; once while I was GM (Player had a dwarf that was flipping over horses and wagons) and once because I had a crazy idea of Shield Rolling Dwarf... Sadly neither of those games lasted very long. :/
I really put this one out to subjective experiences. Although human by far tends to be the most common, some might say it's because of the feat, but the truth of the matter is that with most other races you have to have a concept that fits otherwise you fall back to human.
You mean a mechanical concept (i.e. build) or a character concept.
Because in the latter case I would comment: "Unless you know how to play non-human characters instead of non-human races."
As for builds, I encourage my players to set race as an afterthought when it comes to your build. Yeah some may have slight disadvantages but usually the options for the kinds of characters you can make are much more interesting on the roleplaying side.
Races are not all equal mechanically and not able to anything and everything. Making them work that way in my opinion would really take away from the flavor.
The reason you are seeing more of those races is that they fit what the others players want better. For the RPers maybe they want to be somewhat normal everyman facing a weird world. For the optimizers they are squeezing every bonus they can. Sometimes these are the same people because it is not mutually exclusive.
At the end of the day I think the "racial disparity" argument is not that big a deal. In basic stats it is a 5% loss on accuracy and damage. On weapon size it is a small shift. Speed is the one that really hurts but is overcome with boots (the right orthotics). On paper would I prefer a +4 STR bonus to a +3 yes but it is not the end of the world. Chances are any class that wants to use light armor has already picked a +3 STR so they can have a high DEX too.
Maybe its the grognard in me but I remember when the idea of some races picking some classes was impossible.
If after all this you still worry that some races are under represented. You can just let everyone play a human and describe them as other races. Or you can work with the DM for racial variants that get a free feat.
I personally want to rework all core races so they give you abilities as you level up and do things other than give you stat bonuses. I let my players play exotic races for this reason.
Honestly, I think a bigger problem with races is that they don't really have any impact on the late-game power of a character, except for elves and their spell penetration.
Dwarf: More hammer feats and throwing hammer feats, along with an archetype for that transforming hammer that turns into a crossbow, maybe a weaker version of that? Some sort of shotgun archetype for alchemist? A Mine/cave dweller archetype for barbarian, and some sort of a fighter archetype that specialized in not being superstitious enough to be affected by magic
Gnome: More technogagets, maybe a robot making archetype or two, such as Barbarian in a mechasuit and a druid with an electric animal. Could use some better magic class archetypes too. For feats allow something for the ripsaw glaive (Because it's hilarious seeing a gnome with a ripsaw glaive), making it into a fully automatic +2 damage, increasing said damage, and modifying them to fit under the barrel of an experimental gun.
Halfling: Sorry but Halflings are actually one of the coolest races in the game on paper, but then you're playing as a short human. And we all think of leprechauns or hobbits when we play halflings don't we? And what the hell is a ling?(I kid)
Though they should be able to apply their sling feats to all slings. A dagger-slingshot would be a perfect halfling weapon.
Don't get me started on halflings and slings/sling-staves.
Don't get me started on halflings and slings/sling-staves.
I didn't mean to bring up a dabate keyword I'm sorry...
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My biggest problems with the small folk are that they just aren't differentiated enough. Gnomes and Halflings both bet a STR penalty and a CHA bonus. Nothing else about them really suggests that one is better for a certain class than another.
This is a great point. Personally, I always thought gnomes should have +2 to intelligence instead of charisma. Whatever happened to the iconic image of the bespectacled little bookworm wizard? And to reinforce the tinker gnome image, how about being able to trade out the spell-like abilities for firearm proficiency? "That gnome wizard is out of spells, now's our chance. Wait, what's that he's got? A musket? Run!"
To balance out dwarves, I'd probably give them an alternate racial trait that lets them trade away all of those absurdly situational combat powers for something more reliable, like +1 natural armor. Also, I'd love the ability to trade away Slow and Steady for +5 base movement.
On the halfling side, maybe something that allows them to automatically use Dex for damage on all ranged attacks and finesse weapons? Maybe only when within 30' or flanking, respectively? Suddenly halflings would make just as good of rogues as elves, and a halfling fighter would have a sweet advantage that puts him on equal footing with the bigger races. Imagine getting the same feeling of dread when you're up against a half-orc fighter with a greatsword when you see a halfling fighter with two kukris...
Don't get me started on halflings and slings/sling-staves.I didn't mean to bring up a dabate keyword I'm sorry...
I will be fine that was one of those statements that my laughing did not come through text.
The Cha thing for gnomes comes from the fact that bards are the 3.x illusionists. They kept the charming enchantment spells and dropped they elderly sage look. Besides gnomes are more savants (cha) than studiers (int) that is how I have always understood it.
I do think a tinker racial variant could easily switch to int.
I think "tinker" is the keyword, here. Many gamers, old and young, grew up reading Dragonlance and can't quite shake the "tinker gnome" concept.
I grew up with orcs being pig-like and kobolds being little yap-dogs. While I like the changes made, for the most part, I can't quite shake the image for either of them.
While neither halflings, nor gnomes are races in my campaign setting (their niche is filled by human cultures), I do feel they need some sort of cultural divide to separate them, ie when I do think about how they might fit in a setting, I'd make halflings more Rom "gypsy-like" and gnomes more tinker/craftsmen/alchemists (Int-based). As it stands in PathfinderRPG, they're just too similar in many respects.
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Well I think the gnome obsession (which can be applied to many things) covers the tinkering, crafting, gemcutting of old. Culturally gnomes have the element of being fey touched being from the first world and the aspect of the bleaching.
I would say halflings are more easily lost among humans than gnomes.
It probably my take on things but I really think PF saved gnomes from being a little bit everything that they were in previous generations they were kinda like dwarves but skinny kinda like elves but small, kinda like halflings but more magicy.
The only race I don't see too much from the core is halflings. In PFS I have more dwarf PC's than anything, even outsider races. I have more gnomes than humans or half-elves, and no halflings(though I've played three in home games over the last 5 years).
I'd play more halflings/gnomes if they got a boost to Int over Charisma, but thats because I prefer wizards to sorcerers, so if you made an alternate race I guess I'd pick them up more.
Some people just prefer humans. Some like playing more exotic things. Obviously your mileage will vary, but if your all about optimization you'll see mostly humans, half-elves and half-orcs mainly because they can do everything, and half-orcs and half-elves have nearly all the good FCB's in the game.
I tend to pick humans because of the bonus feat, honestly. I like getting a racial trait that lets me DO something.
I usually ran the races like this:
Humans are highly variant and adaptable. They have a tendency to cling and adapt with other cultures, so it's fairly common for humans to mix with societies of other races.
Elves are aloof and spiritual. Though not arrogant, they see the politics of most other races as trivial whereas their own politics can span hundreds, thousands of years. They like to think about the big picture and long term effects of current events.
Dwarves are down-to-earth and traditional. They have a practical viewpoint on everything, ranging from work to leisure. Having engineering and forging traditions, they see needless complications as baffling and poor design.
Gnomes are excitable and inquisitive. They spend their lives finding new, fun things. Very little gets them down as they see challenges as puzzles to solve.
Halflings are almost the opposite of gnomes -- very little impresses them. They've seen it all. Halflings are tough as nails, and every challenge that comes their way is simply another storm to weather.
To balance out dwarves, I'd probably give them an alternate racial trait that lets them trade away all of those absurdly situational combat powers for something more reliable, like +1 natural armor. Also, I'd love the ability to trade away Slow and Steady for +5 base movement.
Watering everything down so that it's always really mediocre (+1 natural armor) instead of situationally amazing (+4 Dodge Bonus against giants) is so boring. If you want a really vanilla, generic, no-drawbacks, no-perks race there's always the human. They get a feat, they let you dump INT even harder than any other race, and the description from their culture talks about how flexible they are, which I read as "there is nothing special about these guys".
The design team did a great job with making races flexible and varied. No one in the game is as hard to kill with magic as a Steel Soul Dwarf. No one is better at killing people with magic than an Elf. No one is better at illusion/necromancy/fire spells than a Gnome with gnome magic/fell magic/pyromaniac. And if you need an extra feat, or a +2 to STR to pull off your build idea then there are the humans and half-breeds. I like how varied all of the core classes are, and if that means gnomes make lousy fighters then I'd rather have it the way it is.
And Slow and steady actually makes you as fast or faster than any 30' move speed race as long as you're wearing medium or heavier armor. With no bonus to move speed they both move 20, but consider that with expeditious retreat active a full-plate wearing human moves 40 feet (60 base -> 40 with plate), while an armor-clad dwarf moves 50 (50 base -> 50 with S&S). There are tons of ways to boost your speed.
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And Slow and steady actually makes you as fast or faster than any 30' move speed race as long as you're wearing medium or heavier armor. With no bonus to move speed they both move 20, but consider that with expeditious retreat active a full-plate wearing human moves 40 feet (60 base -> 40 with plate), while an armor-clad dwarf moves 50 (50 base -> 50 with S&S). There are tons of ways to boost your speed.
The point was that it was something a non-armor wearing dwarf would enjoy, encouraging more players to consider dwarves as appealing options for other classes.
While we are talking about races and under used ones at that. I would just like to point out one thing that people over look with gnomes the Master Tinker alternative racial trait makes you proficient in any weapon you craft.
Gnome swashbuckler can dual wield dex to damage sawtoothed sabers the same time humans can. Humans have to use their bonus feat on weapon prof. While the gnome just needs to craft it himself. He backs that up with his favorite ranged weapon the boomerang, bolas if he just wants to incapacitate, and oh yes that small wagon he has been demanding rides along with you it has a siege weapon.
I can't be the only guy who thinks races should just be thematic am I? I liked how races worked in guild wars 2, aka they were just for story and fluff.
Humans got a huge boost because their FCBs are so much better than anyone else's. The Sorcerer, Bard, Inquisitor and Oracle bonuses are just sick. So stripping those out or giving the other races something comparable would help.
Halflings are OK (and excellent sorcerers) with the Fleet of Foot racial trait that drops the often rather useless Acrobatics and Climb bonuses for 30' move. But yeah, slings. Useless. Get a crossbow instead.
Dwarves are fine (often a blue choice), except for being a bit slow (and there are fixes for that).
Humans got a huge boost because their FCBs are so much better than anyone else's. The Sorcerer, Bard, Inquisitor and Oracle bonuses are just sick. So stripping those out or giving the other races something comparable would help.
Given how many homebrew races my setting has, my players and I just said that unless a FCB - or racial feat, class, trait, or any other feature - is limited by an anatomical trait the character doesn't have (For example, the Toothy trait for Half-Orcs), it's open to all races. And the anatomical ones are open for any race that fits the criteria (Humans can't take Toothy, but I see no reason Catfolk can't).
While we are talking about races and under used ones at that. I would just like to point out one thing that people over look with gnomes the Master Tinker alternative racial trait makes you proficient in any weapon you craft.
Gnome swashbuckler can dual wield dex to damage sawtoothed sabers the same time humans can.
Dang thats awesome! I totally wish crafting was PFS legal because I'd totally do this.
