If you are playing a gish, then your personal buffs (like Shield) don't have any saving throws.
It is also interesting that if your Wizard has high int/selects feats like spell focus, will make it more difficult for you to keep his buffs up.
Making saving throws to keep/get rid of spells will keep the effect closer to the middle of the RNG every level. While a skill check will be difficult to make at 1st level, but can easily be boosted by a +15 item to be auto made every round at higher levels (assuming you care to invest in the effect).
Currently, I think I would ignore Autohypnosis (place 0 ranks in it) if I swapped in Riven Hourglass using a trait or a tradition.
In general, on a martial initiator I personally prefer using a stance with an effect of its own instead of extending buffs or reducing the duration of debuffs. Even in its previous state, where it automatically extended buffs and halved the duration of debuffs (but only while you were in the stance), I would prefer other stances. As in my group, most spells either last the whole dungeon or they last a single combat. And even if it could cause a single spell to last an extra combat, an equivalent level stance usually gives a slightly better benefit which stacks with the buff.
Also, I don't find it really clear from the text how the stance interacts with multiple active buffs or debuffs at the same time. I think it only affects one spell/spell-like at the time.
In the first part of the write up it states "abilities" so nothing singles out or limits it to a single ability.
I think I prefer the saving throw as "playing with time" has always been a no-no. A certain amount of uncertainty that it might not work is appropriate.
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It's currently a bit, ah, offline. Zealot is in playtesting, or it was - it's being reworked, top to bottom, and its archetypes need to be adjusted to remain compatible.Where can I find the Discordant Crusader Zealot? I only have The Path of War pdf and the only classes in there are Stalker, Warder, and Warlord.Well, Discordant Crusader Zealot is currently the only Initiator that gets both natively, and it even has a mechanic that lets you use either the Silver Crane stuff as an Evil character or the Black Seraph stuff as a Good character without fear of having your alignment change on you, so it's probably the most solid bet for that kind of character.
In theory you can Martial Tradition/Unorthodox Method to get one or both.
As long as I get access to both Black Seraph and Silver Crane AND have the option to use either without alignment shenanigans, I'll be happy. I'm still super looking forward to the Zealot changes. :)
As long as I get access to both Black Seraph and Silver Crane AND have the option to use either without alignment shenanigans, I'll be happy. I'm still super looking forward to the Zealot changes. :)It's currently a bit, ah, offline. Zealot is in playtesting, or it was - it's being reworked, top to bottom, and its archetypes need to be adjusted to remain compatible.Where can I find the Discordant Crusader Zealot? I only have The Path of War pdf and the only classes in there are Stalker, Warder, and Warlord.Well, Discordant Crusader Zealot is currently the only Initiator that gets both natively, and it even has a mechanic that lets you use either the Silver Crane stuff as an Evil character or the Black Seraph stuff as a Good character without fear of having your alignment change on you, so it's probably the most solid bet for that kind of character.
In theory you can Martial Tradition/Unorthodox Method to get one or both.
You could always use a tradition to get one and a trait for the other. Or use the new stalker archetype and use a trait to get Silver Crane. If you are worried about alignment, just try to use them on a 1:1 ratio. Though I have doubts about GMs caring too much about alignment on a non paladin/divine caster.
Possible wording fix and nerf on Distorted Clock.
Discuss!
-X
Stretch distortion is... really, really weird. What's the purpose of increasing your save bonus each round, other than making it even better at extending the duration and making calculating how much it extends durations a little more complicated? Plus, once you fail you can just change stances again to try to extend your buffs again. And for some reason the worse you are at casting (the lower your save DCs are), the better you are at extending your buffs. A Cleric/Initiator with a 12 Wis is going to be superior at making their buffs last a long time than one with 18, for example.
Also, still kinda crazy in a lot of cases. A 9th level battle cleric (assuming you assign Will as the save for spells that don't actually have saves listed) can probably expect to extend 1st level buffs by about 18-20 times their normal durations with this. And that will be really annoying to resolve too, unless you just take the average result.
For both effects, needing to make saves versus each and every effect on you is going to be really irritating in combat as well. Especially at high levels where you can have half a dozen buffs on you at all times.
In the first part of the write up it states "abilities" so nothing singles out or limits it to a single ability.If so, do you save once for each ability affecting you? What if you have like 10 buffs because it is a BBEG battle you got to prepare for? Making 10 rolls per turn to determine what happens to your buffs seems like an unneeded slow down of combat. If you save once and apply it to all abilities, you have a saving throw you can succeed and fail at the same time (strange), and what happens when the buffs have been affecting you for a variable amount of time (so, you have made X saves to increase the duration of Heroism as that was cast pre battle. 1st round you get Haste, and 2nd round you get Enlarge Person; So you have made X saves for Heroism, 2 including both Haste and Heroism, and 1 including all three buffs)?
I don't see anywhere where it says you have to maintain EVERY effect. You can pick and choose which to prolong, also you don't have to do it every round. Each maintance roll adds 2 more rounds so you could basically do it every other round to keep it going.
It does have the potential to slow things down, but no more than a caster making AoE attacks or mass spells which cause saves and SR rolls.. Which is why they are making the book right? So martials can do similar things?
Possible wording fix and nerf on Distorted Clock.
Discuss!
-X
Stretch distortion is... really, really weird. What's the purpose of increasing your save bonus each round, other than making it even better at extending the duration and making calculating how much it extends durations a little more complicated? Plus, once you fail you can just change stances again to try to extend your buffs again. And for some reason the worse you are at casting (the lower your save DCs are), the better you are at extending your buffs. A Cleric/Initiator with a 12 Wis is going to be superior at making their buffs last a long time than one with 18, for example.
Also, still kinda crazy in a lot of cases. A 9th level battle cleric (assuming you assign Will as the save for spells that don't actually have saves listed) can probably expect to extend 1st level buffs by about 18-20 times their normal durations with this. And that will be really annoying to resolve too, unless you just take the average result.
For both effects, needing to make saves versus each and every effect on you is going to be really irritating in combat as well. Especially at high levels where you can have half a dozen buffs on you at all times.
I don't think you are reading it correctly:
1)The roll you are making gets more difficult with every extension (the additional +2 to the DC increases how hard it is to do again).
2)Once you extend the effect, when you switch your stance, the effect ends so no, you cannot fail and just try again. The effect is gone regardless of if it had duration left.
3) You have a choice on which buffs you extend, you don't have to do them all.
If you're right, the wording needs some changes, because none of that seems true from my reading.
1)The roll you are making gets more difficult with every extension (the additional +2 to the DC increases how hard it is to do again).
DCs almost never receive "bonuses", and it seems to be referring to the save ("you make a save against the effect with an increasing +2 bonus" has no connection to DC at all). As an aside, it still has the problem that not all spells even have saves. Many personal buffs, for example.
2)Once you extend the effect, when you switch your stance, the effect ends so no, you cannot fail and just try again. The effect is gone regardless of if it had duration left.
Where are you reading this? The closest thing to a clause like that is "until you fail the save or voluntarily end the effect", which doesn't say anything about the effect going away if you change stances. "Changing stances automatically ends its effects on you." might potentially mean something like that out of context, but in context it's referring to the effects of the stance and nothing else.
3) You have a choice on which buffs you extend, you don't have to do them all.
The optimal thing to do is extend everything. Tracking everything is super annoying. Even three buffs is three extra rolls you have to make and conditionals to track every single round. Hell, even one buff is another conditional to track and die to roll each and every round before you can do anything.
Why not just have positive effects count down at half speed or negative effects count down at double speed? That's way simpler, less open to abuse, and not as annoying to resolve.
I agree the wording, and probably ability needs to be cleaned up (again it looks like).
You are right on the effect, I read through it and saw "its effect ends" and was working on it talking about the powers, when it was talking about the stance effect.
Again, most casters have abilities that force multiple saves and such, so it isn't like it is that big of a deal. Not saying I agree or disagree, it depends on the group honestly. I'm fairly sure most people have multiple dice so rolling a few more rolls and each ability ahead of time (each color for an ability), doesn't slow things down really.
Basically if you don't want it to be super annoying, don't do it... No one is forcing you to.
"This other thing does an annoying thing, so it's okay to make more things that are annoying to play with" is not a compelling reason.
"This other thing does an annoying thing, so it's okay to make more things that are annoying to play with" is not a compelling reason.
It's more like, this new thing that does something a little innovative but requires as much effort as a few core items. It's only annoying if you don't like it, others will like it. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Martials don't usually have "nice things" is the general sentiment, they typically amount to "here roll that die a few times" if they are lucky (and don't have to move).
A little book keeping isn't going to kill anyone, and it is an option that lets you control how much you want to invest into it effort wise as well. You don't even have to use it, if it is a "problem" because there are numerous other things to take from numerous other disciplines. It is a possible choice in a veritable sea of choices.
Or are you of the martials can't have nice things camp?
Skylancer that last line was either a joke I'm too sleepy to understand or needlessly antagonistic for this argument. Can't tell which, so I'm just going to bed now.
Take 3
Distorted Clock
Riven Hourglass (Stance)
Level: 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: StanceMagic is a fickle thing, influenced by time, and wanes in power as the sands glitter through the hourglass of existence. You halt this progression within yourself, sustaining abilities that would normally only last a few minutes, or rending a harmful effect to mere moments. While you maintain this stance, you may apply the effects of the Extend Spell metamagic feat (or Extend Power metapsionic feat) to a single beneficial spell, psionic power, extract, or spell-like ability that affects you. You may Extend an additional effect at 6th initiator level and every four initiator levels after. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to saving throws versus harmful effects with a duration of longer than instantaneous, and you may reroll the saving throw each round on your turn to try to end the effect upon you (as if you had successfully made the initial saving throw).
Thoughts?
-X
How does applying Extend to an effect that's already in place work, and what happens when the Extend goes away?
You need to be in the stance before you can Extend effect can be put on, and if you leave the stance the duration resumes as normal. So if you were in the stance, someone hastes you at CL 6 (6 rounds, Extended to 9). 4 rounds in, you leave the stance, recalculate duration (instead of having 5 left, you now have 2). If it were 7 rounds later you leave the stance, the effect ends immediately (as it would put it beyond the duration of the effect).
-X
You might want to clarify that, because a strict read suggests ("to a single beneficial... that affects you") that you have to already have an effect on you to Extend. There's also no way in the rules to handle Extend being removed from an effect, so you have to explain how to do that in the text or else it's just undefined.
Extend doubles the duration of an effect, it doesn't increase it by 50%, by the way. A CL 6 Extended Haste would last 12 rounds.
Distorted Clock
Riven Hourglass (Stance)
Level: 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
Magic is a fickle thing, influenced by time, and wanes in power as the sands glitter through the hourglass of existence. You halt this progression within yourself, sustaining abilities that would normally only last a few minutes, or rending a harmful effect to mere moments. While in this stance, you may apply the effects of the Extend Spell metamagic feat (or Extend Power metapsionic feat) to a single beneficial spell, psionic power, extract, or spell-like ability cast upon you as long as you maintain this stance; leaving this stance causes the duration to resume as normal (each round of the effect spent as half of a round while in this stance). You may Extend an additional effect at 6th initiator level and every four initiator levels after. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to saving throws versus harmful effects with a duration of longer than instantaneous, and you may reroll the saving throw each round on your turn to try to end the effect upon you (and treating the effect as if you had made the saving throw successfully the first time).
Okay, that should fix that. Stops recalculation. I don't know why Extend was sticking in my head as x1.5, must be thinking of Empower and Enlarge.
-X
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The question has come up so I'll just throw this out here. In the new systems and use chapter we're allowing the following free add ons.
Stalker - May add Tempest Gale or Mithral Current
Warder - May add Eternal Guardian or Piercing Thunder
Warlord - May add Piercing Thunder or Tempest Gale.
Fight on!
-X
Feels a little less comfy that Warder gets one of the Zealots signature disciplines.
Also what about archetypes? I imagine specific archetypes like the Hawkguard would rather have Tempest Gale.
A Warder who picks up Thunder intending to Leonidas it up will also run into the problem of being restricted to one stance for the entire campaign.
Feels a little less comfy that Warder gets one of the Zealots signature disciplines.
Also what about archetypes? I imagine specific archetypes like the Hawkguard would rather have Tempest Gale.
A Warder who picks up Thunder intending to Leonidas it up will also run into the problem of being restricted to one stance for the entire campaign.
I also haven't revealed the entire new chapter either. So there is that too. Just a tiny sliver.
-X
Cross-posting from the OotS forums to see if we can scare up some extra opinions here:
That is awesome news! Piercing Thunder and Tempest Gale (admittedly very briefly skimmed) both seem like logical additions to the warlord's repertoire.
Edit to put something actually useful in this post: I have to agree with Insain that I'm not crazy about Phalanx Lancer. Being able to use two-handed reach weapons one-handed is an incredibly cool and very appropriate ability for Piercing Thunder. However since you rely exclusively on Phalanx Lancer to make reach weapon + shield work, it's very unappealing to switch stances. That in turn makes gaining more stances frustrating, since you're rarely if ever going to use any of them. Just to be clear I love the effect of Phalanx Lancer and I absolutely want it to be an option for the discipline, but I wish its effect wasn't limited to a single level 1 stance.
There are multiple fighting styles you can do. If you carry a shield and a pair of pole arms, you can swap between single doublehanded, a big weapon and shield, or a big weapon combo and you just keep the party going depending on how you need to fight. You could live in one stance, true, but you're shrinking your options in return. That's my perspective.
Additionally, Slayer's stance could also be used to facilitate the Phalanx fighter mode too.
-X
Blargh, somehow I didn't notice shields are associated weapons for Piercing Thunder. Okay, that helps put some extra options on the table. :)
Distorted Clock
Riven Hourglass (Stance)
Level: 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: StanceMagic is a fickle thing, influenced by time, and wanes in power as the sands glitter through the hourglass of existence. You halt this progression within yourself, sustaining abilities that would normally only last a few minutes, or rending a harmful effect to mere moments. While in this stance, you may apply the effects of the Extend Spell metamagic feat (or Extend Power metapsionic feat) to a single beneficial spell, psionic power, extract, or spell-like ability cast upon you as long as you maintain this stance; leaving this stance causes the duration to resume as normal (each round of the effect spent as half of a round while in this stance). You may Extend an additional effect at 6th initiator level and every four initiator levels after. You gain a +2 circumstance bonus to saving throws versus harmful effects with a duration of longer than instantaneous, and you may reroll the saving throw each round on your turn to try to end the effect upon you (and treating the effect as if you had made the saving throw successfully the first time).
Okay, that should fix that. Stops recalculation. I don't know why Extend was sticking in my head as x1.5, must be thinking of Empower and Enlarge.
-X
Is there a particular reason that portion is added? As it reads now it could cause some to believe that it would retroactively fix damage or such:
Spell is cast that has save or suffer damage over time component.
X rounds later character in stance makes save.
Line says treat the effect as if the save were made the first time...
So now you didn't take damage?
The Class Templates will be getting finalized this week, so this is your last chance to point out any issues! :D
@Skylancer - I removed that line in Distorted Clock. I'm honestly not sure what I was thinking. Heat got to me at the lake.
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Class Templates and Mystic both are going into finalization this week. Anything last minute mystic wise - get it out there. Includes Flux and Hourglass.
-X
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Posting this for Nova - crossposted from GitP -
Hello, everyone!
I’m here to present to you the zealot v2.0! As X did with the mystic, I’d like to give some insight as to why these changes were made. The scope of the rework was pretty enormous, but the changes incorporated the community recommended, the team wanted, and/or I saw were necessary, even if some of them were hard to make. If you'd like to read this in Google Docs, check it out here.
What’s Next?
Next is getting the archetypes compatible with the new zealot. This will hopefully be finished over the weekend/early next week!
And, of course, the Bleak Emissary. That thing always needs work :P.
Check out the revised Zealot everyone!
-X
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I quite like the new extra recovery method (love that it gives the PP pool another use), and Unorthodox Tactics even moreso. Thou I am curious, under which circumstances do you see people recovering one maneuver as a standart action rather than using tha same standart action to recover maneuvers AND activate their zeal?
Standard action recovery exists for out of combat uses, largely, or on turns where for some reason you can't do normal maneuver recovery, but it's a staple of all of the initiators save the mystic to do so.
-X
New Warder archetype in the Archetype document - the Ordained Defender.
Feedback wanted! Intent is to be simple and clean, nothing fancy, but filling a niche that needed filling.
-X
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Posting this for Nova - crossposted from GitP -
Hello, everyone!
I’m here to present to you the zealot v2.0! As X did with the mystic, I’d like to give some insight as to why these changes were made. The scope of the rework was pretty enormous, but the changes incorporated the community recommended, the team wanted, and/or I saw were necessary, even if some of them were hard to make. If you'd like to read this in Google Docs, check it out here.
What’s Next?
Next is getting the archetypes compatible with the new zealot. This will hopefully be finished over the weekend/early next week!
And, of course, the Bleak Emissary. That thing always needs work :P.
Check out the revised Zealot everyone!
-X
Any progress on the Discordant Crusader Zealot?
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Archetypes for Zealot is Nova's #1 priority right now, so I'd expect them very soon.
-X
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I was looking over Piercing Thunder, and is there any special reason why so many of the maneuvers require that you charge? In my mind, a polearm user on foot prefers to use Combat Reflexes + Readied Actions to punish enemies that want to close, while occupying charge lanes towards allied spellcasters, instead of charging the enemy allowing for enemy 5-foot step...
What it sounds like you want is some kind of tanking build, not a polearm build. This combat role you describe is literally what the Zweihander Sentinel does with class features, not maneuvers. Tons of AoO's, defensive focus is a better version of readying an action, and you can use a 1st level golden lion boost to reposition yourself before using defensive focus. Despite the name, Zweihander Sentinel is amazing with spears.
Piercing Thunder was not designed as a tanking discipline.
Lirya, the reason you don't see maneuver support for the build you're describing is the same reason you don't see many full attacks or arrow spam in Solar Wind or Tempest Gale.
The systems in place already support those build styles very effectively. As such, there's little room for us to expand on or improve on those builds without making them even more powerful in their area than they already are.
Better to put our resources towards adding support for fighting styles that lack first party support instead. That way, characters using our resources can do more than just the same standard tricks they already could do. More versatility is a good thing. Not every enemy can be tripped, not every character will have the opportunity to full attack every round (even at range), and not every enemy is going to open themselves up to an AoO. Better to have multiple options in and out of combat so that you don't find yourself unable to meaningfully contribute.
Zealot looks very interesting but I have a question(one most likely far fetched one) is there plans for/will there be an Archetype that trades out psionics for something maybe even divine spell casting ability.
I'm still not a fan of the Ordained Defender. It feels exceedingly lackluster in what it actually offers. Especially when compared to the other archetypes, like the Fiend bound Marauder itself. I don't currently have any ideas as to what can actually be added to it... but I still feel like its missing something to probably make it an actual archetype instead of this small swap that it currently is.
So, a proposed variant for Initiator Level that'll be going into the book. It'll be released with edits to Martial Training for games that choose to use it.
Initiator Level
All creatures - even those who do not know any martial maneuvers - have an initiator level. A creature's initiator level is equal to its levels in martial disciple classes (that is, classes that grant a progression of maneuvers known & readied) plus its 1/2 its levels in all other classes (this includes racial hit die). Having an initiator level does not necessarily grant the creature an initiation modifier (but see martial disciple classes and the Martial Training feat).Example: A warlord 1/stalker 2/fighter 1 has an IL of 3 (1 + 2 + .5 = 3.5, rounded down). Adding a second level of fighter would bring the character's IL to 4.
... Funnily enough, I always thought that it was a singular IL level across the classes already. Its how I've always operated with my characters, both for Path of War and for Tome of Battle. So honestly this change just makes sure there is no understanding about it at all.
Go ahead and put it in, or even make it the official wording.
Just clarify for those who seem to have been doing it incorrectly:
Okay, current rules. Say you have a 6th level stalker / 4th level monk. His initiator level is 8 (6 + (4 /2))
Say said guy gets 2 levels in warlord because he hates himself. His initiator levels are:
Stalker: 9 (6 + (4/2) + (2/2)) =9
Warlord: 7 (2 + (6 / 2) + (4/2)) = 7
That make sense?
-X
Alright folks, got a new Prestige Class for you fans of einhanders, scarlet throne, mithral current, and being a badass:
Let me know what you think!
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Alright folks, got a new Prestige Class for you fans of einhanders, scarlet throne, mithral current, and being a badass:
Let me know what you think!
I think the Etrian guys are gonna come looking for you...
:P
I hope they do. I love those games, own every single one. I await Knight of Fafnir with great impatience.