Elricaltovilla |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Elricaltovilla wrote:I'd like to start by saying that the Aegis is an amazingly well designed class, to the point where I struggled a great deal trying to find something I was OK with them losing in favor of maneuvers. Unfortunately a full archetype just doesn't accomplish what we want for the Aegis Initiator so I've added new Aegis customizations to the Archetypes document, available for review now.I like what you've done with it! Though I do have a suggestion. Could the customizations get special text allowing them to be taken by the Aberrant Aegis archetype?
Text allowing Aberrants to use the new customizations has been added.
Kudaku |
I realize this can probably wait for Ultimate Path of War, but at some point it'd be really cool to have retraining rules sections for PoW class features, maneuvers, and stances. :)
Skylancer4 |
I realize this can probably wait for Ultimate Path of War, but at some point it'd be really cool to have retraining rules sections for PoW class features, maneuvers, and stances. :)
I'm not sure they are really needed, don't initiators get to swap out maneuvers as they level if they want to? Everything else would be covered by the normal retraining rules.
Kudaku |
Kudaku wrote:I realize this can probably wait for Ultimate Path of War, but at some point it'd be really cool to have retraining rules sections for PoW class features, maneuvers, and stances. :)I'm not sure they are really needed, don't initiators get to swap out maneuvers as they level if they want to? Everything else would be covered by the normal retraining rules.
I believe all initiators can replace one maneuver with a higher level maneuver every even level starting at level 4, however there's no way to change a stance once picked. Initiators are somewhat similar to sorcerers, who get to swap out spells as they level but also have a retraining option available for when they screwed up their initial selection. Sometimes you wind up picking spells/maneuvers that really don't work out the way you thought they did*. Finally, It'd be a good option for characters who only take a few levels of an initiator.
Adam B. 135 |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Adam B. 135 wrote:Text allowing Aberrants to use the new customizations has been added.Elricaltovilla wrote:I'd like to start by saying that the Aegis is an amazingly well designed class, to the point where I struggled a great deal trying to find something I was OK with them losing in favor of maneuvers. Unfortunately a full archetype just doesn't accomplish what we want for the Aegis Initiator so I've added new Aegis customizations to the Archetypes document, available for review now.I like what you've done with it! Though I do have a suggestion. Could the customizations get special text allowing them to be taken by the Aberrant Aegis archetype?
I not saying my goal is to play Venom in Pathfinder, but my goal is to play Venom in Pathfinder.
Milo v3 |
I not saying my goal is to play Venom in Pathfinder, but my goal is to play Venom in Pathfinder.
Skylancer4 |
Skylancer4 wrote:Kudaku wrote:I realize this can probably wait for Ultimate Path of War, but at some point it'd be really cool to have retraining rules sections for PoW class features, maneuvers, and stances. :)I'm not sure they are really needed, don't initiators get to swap out maneuvers as they level if they want to? Everything else would be covered by the normal retraining rules.I believe all initiators can replace one maneuver with a higher level maneuver every even level starting at level 4, however there's no way to change a stance once picked. Initiators are somewhat similar to sorcerers, who get to swap out spells as they level but also have a retraining option available for when they screwed up their initial selection. Sometimes you wind up picking spells/maneuvers that really don't work out the way you thought they did*. Finally, It'd be a good option for characters who only take a few levels of an initiator.
** spoiler omitted **
I guess my question (or hang up) would be what would happen if you went to your DM right now and asked to retrain? Aren't the options broad enough for you to make the changes you want? Do you expect every 3pp class to have detailed instructions for optional rules?
Not saying it wouldn't be convenient, but I would much rather have a page and half to page of new useful mechanics or material verus semi wasted support for completely optional rules that aren't necessarily widely used. At best that seems like something you'd put in the blog or the like. Because let's face it, retraining rules were designed for PFS and PoW won't ever be used in PFS. In any home game that would allow retraining, they were doing rebuilds at GMs discretion anyway.
Fury of the Tempest |
(Replying to stuff in GitP)
I rather like how the Zealot Awakened Champion has is exchangeable power-lists, as it really makes it rather unique amongst limited manifestations, and all honestly actually works for the Zealot, as this revolving style almost seems to be part of their class identity to me. (What with the Zealot Silver Crane/Black Serapth discipline, and even Echoes of Steel and how you swap your maneuvers around with your allies). You just need to limit how much you get from this, and the power of your manifesting as a whole with what you give up.
Prince of Knives |
I got ya covered.
First Date
Sleepover Arrangements
Re-Introductions
The Lich's Daughter
Don't Forget to Write
Maid & Knight
Pirate & Prophetess
Eagerly accepting feedback on these.
AinvarG |
Adam B. 135 wrote:Eagerly accepting feedback on these.I got ya covered.
First Date
Sleepover Arrangements
Re-Introductions
The Lich's Daughter
Don't Forget to Write
Maid & Knight
Pirate & Prophetess
The two that I can access (the first and the last) are great, Prince, but I get an error from the site for the others. I haven't done any troubleshooting, just reporting the error here.
Content Encoding Error
The page you are trying to view cannot be shown because it uses an invalid or unsupported form of compression.
Skylancer4 |
Prince of Knives wrote:Adam B. 135 wrote:Eagerly accepting feedback on these.I got ya covered.
First Date
Sleepover Arrangements
Re-Introductions
The Lich's Daughter
Don't Forget to Write
Maid & Knight
Pirate & ProphetessThe two that I can access (the first and the last) are great, Prince, but I get an error from the site for the others. I haven't done any troubleshooting, just reporting the error here.
Content Encoding Error
The page you are trying to view cannot be shown because it uses an invalid or unsupported form of compression.
Try to refresh the page or another browser. It happens pretty often when I'm using Mobile Firefox and when I use Chrome for Android, when it happens, the page refreshes automatically and loads. They said they've seen it happen outside of mobile environment too and are trying to figure out what is causing it.
A page refresh has always worked for me, but I have stock setings for the browsers. If you have played with the settings of your browser it might not for you however.
Prince of Knives |
AinvarG wrote:Prince of Knives wrote:Adam B. 135 wrote:Eagerly accepting feedback on these.I got ya covered.
First Date
Sleepover Arrangements
Re-Introductions
The Lich's Daughter
Don't Forget to Write
Maid & Knight
Pirate & ProphetessThe two that I can access (the first and the last) are great, Prince, but I get an error from the site for the others. I haven't done any troubleshooting, just reporting the error here.
Content Encoding Error
The page you are trying to view cannot be shown because it uses an invalid or unsupported form of compression.
Try to refresh the page or another browser. It happens pretty often when I'm using Mobile Firefox and when I use Chrome for Android, when it happens, the page refreshes automatically and loads. They said they've seen it happen outside of mobile environment too and are trying to figure out what is causing it.
A page refresh has always worked for me, but I have stock setings for the browsers. If you have played with the settings of your browser it might not for you however.
This. You have our apologies for the inconvenience. We're working on it.
Elricaltovilla |
New Feats, and changes to old feats:
Elemental Flux Style [Combat, Style]
You understand the fluid and changing nature of elemental magics.
Prerequisites: 1 or more Elemental Flux stances, Spellcraft 3 ranks.
Benefit: While this style is active, you may change your active element once per round as a free action.
Mithral Current Style [Combat, Style]
Your dazzling and graceful motions allow you to catch foes off guard.
Prerequisites: 1 or more Mithral Current stances, Quick Draw, Perform (Dance) 3 ranks.
Benefit: While this style is active and your weapon is sheathed, you can spend a swift action to make a feint attempt against one enemy within melee range. You may use Perform (Dance) in place of Bluff for this feint attempt.
Piercing Thunder Style [Combat, Style]
You can use the natural reach of a spear or polearm with greater effectiveness.
Prerequisites: 1 or more Piercing Thunder stances, Acrobatics 3 ranks.
Benefit: While this style is active and you are wielding a weapon with the reach property, enemies provoke attacks of opportunity for moving into your threatened area. If an enemy would also provoke an attack of opportunity for moving out of your threatened area (such as an increased threatened area from being large size), they still only provoke one attack of opportunity from you.
Polearm Dancer [Combat]
Your motions with your spear are agile and graceful.
Prerequisites: BAB +1, Perform (Dance) 1 Rank
Benefit: You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with weapons from the polearm or spear weapon groups that are appropriately sized for you, even though they aren’t light weapons.
Improved Quick Draw [Combat]
Even with your weapon still sheathed, your presence is enough to threaten enemies.
Prerequisites: Quick Draw
Benefit: As long as you have a sheathed weapon on your person, you threaten all squares within your sheathed weapon’s normal reach and may make attacks of opportunity even if you are not currently wielding a weapon. You may draw a weapon as part of making an attack of opportunity; weapons drawn this way are sheathed after the attack is resolved.
Elements as One is gone, being rolled into Elemental Flux Style. These feats will be added to the feats document later today or sometime tomorrow to give you time to look them over.
Insain Dragoon |
Piercing Thunder Style [Combat, Style]
You can use the natural reach of a spear or polearm with greater effectiveness.
Prerequisites: 1 or more Piercing Thunder stances, Acrobatics 3 ranks.
Benefit: While this style is active and you are wielding a weapon with the reach property, enemies provoke attacks of opportunity for moving into your threatened area. If an enemy would also provoke an attack of opportunity for moving out of your threatened area (such as an increased threatened area from being large size), they still only provoke one attack of opportunity from you.
I really can't agree with this feat. The reach+area denial strategy is already one of the best and most powerful strategies in the game and doesn't need a straight buff like this.
Elricaltovilla |
Quote:I really can't agree with this feat. The reach+area denial strategy is already one of the best and most powerful strategies in the game and doesn't need a straight buff like this.
Piercing Thunder Style [Combat, Style]
You can use the natural reach of a spear or polearm with greater effectiveness.
Prerequisites: 1 or more Piercing Thunder stances, Acrobatics 3 ranks.
Benefit: While this style is active and you are wielding a weapon with the reach property, enemies provoke attacks of opportunity for moving into your threatened area. If an enemy would also provoke an attack of opportunity for moving out of your threatened area (such as an increased threatened area from being large size), they still only provoke one attack of opportunity from you.
I appreciate the concern and the feedback, but we get told pretty regularly how [insert combat style here] is already super strong and doesn't need more support, so critiques like that are tough to follow through on. Every combat style is getting a buff or two out of this book, if we avoided the "powerful" ones, we'd be left with... improvised weapons.
Elricaltovilla |
I just know that allowing someone to make an attack of opportunity whenever someone enters your reach is a huge mistake. This isn't the kind of feat you want to throw into a game.
As always, if you have some proof of that please show it. If you can back up your arguments, I'm more than happy to consider them seriously.
Insain Dragoon |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
That's the thing, this is the kind of thing that's really hard to back up with proof.
Before I get into mechanics. Piercing Thunder is about mobility and taking the offensive, so why would the style promote a stationary and defensive playstyle? The followup feats are also really at odds with this style feat.
Previously, against humanoid and large humanoid foes, my trip fighter's only martial weakness was other reach users since anything without reach or archery couldn't hurt me. They would come in and I'd trip them before they could do anything. Now with this feat the game is changed.
Either we both have it and it's a game of chicken where the first person to enter the other's reach loses.
Only I have it and most melee foes will never have an opportunity to land a hit on me without a -4 prone penalty.
Or I have it and get to enjoy applying on hit effects to my enemies in significantly more situations than I previously could. Which is a huge boon for Zweihander Sentinel Warders, who didn't need more buffs.
God forbid my DM throw a giant at me with this feat, it was already hard enough to get close to them.
This is the kind of feat that's going to give you headaches at some point in the future for doing something that it really shouldn't be doing and for being thematically inappropriate for the discipline it's modeled for.
Insain Dragoon |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I didn't say it made 5 ft steps provoke.
This feat kicks Lunge's ass in terms of utility.
I already mentioned ranged combat in the post
only martial weakness was other reach users since anything without reach or archery couldn't hurt me.
Teleportation is a super cool thing. This feat can actually make several forms of teleportation provoke too.
AinvarG |
This. You have our apologies for the inconvenience. We're working on it.
No apologies necessary, I was just reporting it in case the DSPers weren't aware.
Will return with results from experimentation.
EDIT: Very quick experimentation, but I see this happening on Firefox, but the links that didn't work for that browser work for Chrome and Opera.
EDIT the Second: I'm glad I followed up instead of walking away when they wouldn't open the first time. Those are excellent, Prince.
Prince of Knives |
Prince of Knives wrote:
This. You have our apologies for the inconvenience. We're working on it.No apologies necessary, I was just reporting it in case the DSPers weren't aware.
Will return with results from experimentation.
EDIT: Very quick experimentation, but I see this happening on Firefox, but the links that didn't work for that browser work for Chrome and Opera.
EDIT the Second: I'm glad I followed up instead of walking away when they wouldn't open the first time. Those are excellent, Prince.
Yay! There's other fiction stories too - Anthony's written some, and we've got the first two parts of A Fire So Pure. As always, we're eagerly accepting critique, comments, etc. Also there's share buttons available >.>
Skylancer4 |
I'm with Insain Dragon. There is adding extra options and then there is power creep.
I think the general sentiment this book is "martials don't have nice things, lets give them some" so they are okay with that.
The problem is these are low level options available to full casters as well so they just end up pushing the power level up instead of helping just martials. Fighters and feat lines have been called out as bad design, so they can't use feats as a gate to limit the abilities availability because the classes they are designing wont have the feats to get them either. It is a messy situation and power creep is going to be the result.
shroudb |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Provoking when entering sounds like a terrible idea.
As a simple example imagine combining this feat with pushing assault+ reach weapon:
Someone tries to approach.
He provokes at 10ft
You attack, dealing damage and push him to 15ft
He tries to close in again
Provoking once more, taking damage and going back to 15ft
Etc etc etc
It becomes ridiculously easy to become a mobile 20-30ft zone that no enemy can enter.
Fury of the Tempest |
Just for the record, as the discussion is mainly happened over on Gitp (as always), but I support Elric when it comes to both Golden Lion Style and Piecing Thunder Style. That being said, I think the Feat Document needs updated with all the feat changes Elric shared with us on the 6th (you know, Improved Quick Draw and the like?), also should the Bushi just be given Improved Quick Draw & Mixed Combat at level 6, instead of Mixed Combat and basically IQD?
Insain Dragoon |
true_shinken wrote:I'm with Insain Dragon. There is adding extra options and then there is power creep.I think the general sentiment this book is "martials don't have nice things, lets give them some" so they are okay with that.
The problem is these are low level options available to full casters as well so they just end up pushing the power level up instead of helping just martials. Fighters and feat lines have been called out as bad design, so they can't use feats as a gate to limit the abilities availability because the classes they are designing wont have the feats to get them either. It is a messy situation and power creep is going to be the result.
It's been stated by the devs that the intent of the book is to provide more options in combat while be balanced with Paizo and DSP material. Thus the "nice things" the devs speak of should be tools to increase options, not damage.
A good example of what I'm talking about are feats like P. 2wf, which open the option of 2wf to str users. Good. Another good example is Howling Gale which sacrifices the huge damage of a Full Attack to allow you to perform combat control actions.
Piercing Thunder and Golden Lion Style do not increase options while maintaining the original damage ceiling on one of the powerful combat styles pre-Path of War. Instead they break that cieling.
If Path of War's mission statement has changed so that it's being balanced at a different power level than DSP and Paizo material I really need to know.
Fury of the Tempest |
... But they do increase options, and not just in the form of damage.
Piercing Thunder Style allows you to set up miniature zones of control, allowing you to play an interesting combination of control and mobility that only The Landsknect can really match currently. It can also be used to further one's Zone of Control if your someone like a Warder yes, but it doesn't actually allow you to attack further away from you.
Meanwhile, Golden Lion Style gives you the option to reduce the impact that a miss from an ally can have, by having a chance to hit the enemy yourself. Of course, with the right builds, its possible to turn the miss into even more damage than what the ally might of been able to do... but that requires a LOT of focus on that single build...
So... yeah. They increase options.
Insain Dragoon |
Reading comprehension.
"provide more options in combat while being balanced with Paizo and DSP material. "
Is the full statement and failing on either of the two points is a failure to achieve that overall goal. So if you're providing new options while throwing the previous balance point out of the window you either need to
A. Decide a new balance point to advertise your product with
B. Fix it so it's not overtuned
Michael Sayre Design Manager |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Meanwhile, Golden Lion Style gives you the option to reduce the impact that a miss from an ally can have, by having a chance to hit the enemy yourself. Of course, with the right builds, its possible to turn the miss into even more damage than what the ally might of been able to do... but that requires a LOT of focus on that single build...So... yeah. They increase options.
It's not "with the right build", it's with literally any build that can qualify for it. You're replacing a missed attack (something the game expects and which is already factored into class design) with a full attack bonus attack which you would not otherwise have been able to make. It's a straight damage increase, potentially a really, really big one once you actually start stacking it with other damage boosters like Seize the Opportunity.
There's also absolutely nothing an opponent can do about it. It's extra attacks that the party knows how to set up and trigger. It shares a similar issue with Piercing Thunder Style, which drastically shifts tactical combat even further in the party's favor.Skylancer4 |
Skylancer4 wrote:true_shinken wrote:I'm with Insain Dragon. There is adding extra options and then there is power creep.I think the general sentiment this book is "martials don't have nice things, lets give them some" so they are okay with that.
The problem is these are low level options available to full casters as well so they just end up pushing the power level up instead of helping just martials. Fighters and feat lines have been called out as bad design, so they can't use feats as a gate to limit the abilities availability because the classes they are designing wont have the feats to get them either. It is a messy situation and power creep is going to be the result.
It's been stated by the devs that the intent of the book is to provide more options in combat while be balanced with Paizo and DSP material. Thus the "nice things" the devs speak of should be tools to increase options, not damage.
A good example of what I'm talking about are feats like P. 2wf, which open the option of 2wf to str users. Good. Another good example is Howling Gale which sacrifices the huge damage of a Full Attack to allow you to perform combat control actions.
Piercing Thunder and Golden Lion Style do not increase options while maintaining the original damage ceiling on one of the powerful combat styles pre-Path of War. Instead they break that cieling.
If Path of War's mission statement has changed so that it's being balanced at a different power level than DSP and Paizo material I really need to know.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm pointing out that they have no problems with things progressing as they are. Being balanced with core rules is not a concern anymore. Anything up to "martials casting wish" is essentially fair game as far as balance goes it seems.
Prince of Knives |
Insain Dragoon wrote:I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm pointing out that they have no problems with things progressing as they are. Being balanced with core rules is not a concern anymore. Anything up to "martials casting wish" is essentially fair game as far as balance goes it seems.Skylancer4 wrote:true_shinken wrote:I'm with Insain Dragon. There is adding extra options and then there is power creep.I think the general sentiment this book is "martials don't have nice things, lets give them some" so they are okay with that.
The problem is these are low level options available to full casters as well so they just end up pushing the power level up instead of helping just martials. Fighters and feat lines have been called out as bad design, so they can't use feats as a gate to limit the abilities availability because the classes they are designing wont have the feats to get them either. It is a messy situation and power creep is going to be the result.
It's been stated by the devs that the intent of the book is to provide more options in combat while be balanced with Paizo and DSP material. Thus the "nice things" the devs speak of should be tools to increase options, not damage.
A good example of what I'm talking about are feats like P. 2wf, which open the option of 2wf to str users. Good. Another good example is Howling Gale which sacrifices the huge damage of a Full Attack to allow you to perform combat control actions.
Piercing Thunder and Golden Lion Style do not increase options while maintaining the original damage ceiling on one of the powerful combat styles pre-Path of War. Instead they break that cieling.
If Path of War's mission statement has changed so that it's being balanced at a different power level than DSP and Paizo material I really need to know.
Not sure if this is about Mystic's crafting stuff or Shattered Mirror.
shroudb |
Insain Dragoon wrote:I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm pointing out that they have no problems with things progressing as they are. Being balanced with core rules is not a concern anymore. Anything up to "martials casting wish" is essentially fair game as far as balance goes it seems.Skylancer4 wrote:true_shinken wrote:I'm with Insain Dragon. There is adding extra options and then there is power creep.I think the general sentiment this book is "martials don't have nice things, lets give them some" so they are okay with that.
The problem is these are low level options available to full casters as well so they just end up pushing the power level up instead of helping just martials. Fighters and feat lines have been called out as bad design, so they can't use feats as a gate to limit the abilities availability because the classes they are designing wont have the feats to get them either. It is a messy situation and power creep is going to be the result.
It's been stated by the devs that the intent of the book is to provide more options in combat while be balanced with Paizo and DSP material. Thus the "nice things" the devs speak of should be tools to increase options, not damage.
A good example of what I'm talking about are feats like P. 2wf, which open the option of 2wf to str users. Good. Another good example is Howling Gale which sacrifices the huge damage of a Full Attack to allow you to perform combat control actions.
Piercing Thunder and Golden Lion Style do not increase options while maintaining the original damage ceiling on one of the powerful combat styles pre-Path of War. Instead they break that cieling.
If Path of War's mission statement has changed so that it's being balanced at a different power level than DSP and Paizo material I really need to know.
Straight up damage buffs are NOT what martial need to be competitive.
"Do more damage" doesn't expand a character's arsenal of toolsFury of the Tempest |
Its a good thing that Golden Lion Style and Piercing Thunder Style ARE NOT just straight damage buffs. Yes, I will admit that there are powerful builds that can be made from them... but that's exactly what they are. BUILDS. The Style Feats are designed to open up new avenue's of play, and from all this complaining I can succesfully say that these two definently do the job.
Plus, has anyone actually created an encounter and TESTED the builds?
Felyndiira |
What if we changed Piercing Thunder Style to the following:
Piercing Thunder Style [Combat, Style]
You can use the natural reach of a spear or polearm with greater effectiveness.
Prerequisites: 1 or more Piercing Thunder stances, Acrobatics 3 ranks.
Benefit: While this style is active and you are wielding a weapon with the reach property, you gain a +5 ft. reach for making attacks of opportunity.
It should, effectively, be similar to the style as written, except it won't start provoking on stuff like teleportation. If this is still a concern, we can add the following additional clause:
This does not stack with the effects of stances that increase threatened area or AoO reach, such as Iron Tortoise Stance. Stances that increase threatened area as a result of changing size, as well as non-stance effects that increases threatened area, still stack as normal.
This would make the style Iron Tortoise Stance light; if ITS isn't a concern, then Piercing Thunder Style as written here would also not be.
... Well DAMN. Those two feats are without a doubt some of the most awesome feats imaginable! It opens up SO much possibility for builds and combinations, especially with Piercing Thunder! Still no spear TWFing, but that is a bit much.
A little late, but you can still TWF spears using Piercing Thunder Stance at level 5. Heck, if you're in that stance, you don't even need Polearm Training, since you can reduce polearms right from two-handed to light if you have the first TWF feat.