I'm curious; the basic bardic ability (Inspire Courage) is pretty combat-focused. It works best in a party full of combat specialists who can make the most of the bonus to attack and damage, and since most parties have at least one or two tanks/damage specialists, it's almost always useful.
However, there's a few bardic archetypes that get rid of this iconic ability and replace it with something else. Specifically, I'm thinking of the Street Performer that gains the ability to turn party members invisible, and the Negotiator that can give enemies penalties to saves vs charm and illusion effects, as well as the Appraise skill.
The Street Performer's power is custom tailored for a party full of sneak attackers, who'll also probably have the skill points to never be left out when the bard's talking, stealing, or infiltrating. The Negotiator's power seems like a ridiculously-underpowered effect for a main bardic ability, but if a party happened to also contain a dedicated enchanter and a dedicated illusionist, I could see it being a powerful combo.
Has anyone ever seen such a non-traditional bard/party combo at a table before, and if so, how did it work out? How about any other non-traditional party combos that were also fun to see?
I've had a street performer! We also had a Knifemaster Rogue and an Umbral Bloodline Sorcerer, both of which benefited from the performances.
The bard still provided for a morale attack bonus through Flagbearer... he planned on getting Banner of the Ancient Kings, but that never materialzed since the game ended soon later.
Atarlost, I disagree with you on virtually every point. And besides, a bard-combo party IS one of those non-traditional parties I was just describing; a traditional bard, a street performer, and a couple rogues equals a very, very deadly combo.
You should check out the ALL bard party.
Arcane Duelist
Thunderstriker
Arcane Healer
Magician
That would be absolutely awesome. And, ironically, still has room for the negotiator and street performer just to add charm aid and invisibility to the list of things that party could do for each other.
You should check out the ALL bard party.
Arcane Duelist
Thundercaller
Arcane Healer
Magician
Snagging this for when my group gets around to all-bard.
I don't know why the Negotiator has taken hold of my imagination so much, but he really has. He has rogue talents (which I love), he adds half his class level on Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (local), and Sense Motive checks (I'm always the party face whether I build for it or not), and with his Fast Talk ability, he can technically use charms figments, glamours, and shadows 1 DC better than a wizard of equal level (and with a illusionist/summoner in the party he's doubled the dude's effectiveness). However, his strength still feels so situational that I'm looking for the right party to complement him.
I'm thinking Negotiator, Magician, Songhealer, and Arcane Duelist would be my Bardic Party. All the fun of 4 bards, every performance covered, and the negotiator gets to shine as a face and illusionist without worrying 'the basics' aren't covered.
Actually, the Street Performer's ability does upgrade to greater invisibility at level 15.
The problem is, everyone has a different definition of what 'optimized' means, since that changes from game style to game style.
If you mean who's dealing the most damage per round, then no it's not optimized. If you mean who can take down the combat with a CR way higher than what they're supposed to, I'd take the Bard party. You can argue your party has more Stealth, but I'd argue mine does, since my invisibility take a round of bard performance (which I've got over 40 of) and can affect all of the rest of my party at the same time, combined with my ability to avoid attacks through my harmless performer performance or through fun with Disguise means I can leave the enemy with nothing to hit. Not to mention that it could be argued (i.e., I'd allow it) that since the Street Performer draws a creature's attention instead of actually bestowing invisibility, it can work through true sight, which the ninja's can't do with their own invisibility.
That being said, all rogues/ninjas is another party that I've wanted to run as well.
why does no one like the sandman?
Sneak attack bard that can steal spells?? cmon!
I think this thread just morphed into…"lets build a party full of ninjas!"
Bards and Rogues are my favorite classes, specifically because they have so much room to be non-traditional. Ambushes, social encounters, straight combat, investigations; they have the class abilities and skill points to have all sorts of fun. You've got me hoping my next group will be down for some sort of rogue and/or bard party, because I'd love to experiment with the full range of their capabilities without worrying that the party fighter is being left with nothing to do.