After much grousing and malingering, I've decided to give Mythic Adventures a shot. Not sure how much I'll like it given the insane difficulty of challenging the players, but I'm taking the Mythic Adventures challenge. I'm going to keep an ongoing journal filled with my methods for challenging insanely powerful PCs.
After initially thinking I would have to reign in my PCs by using very restrictive character building, wealth by level, and the like, I've decided to go in the opposite direction by giving them so much that those factors won't much matter once I modify encounters.
Mythic Adventures is built for playing demigods and legendary heroes. The kind of characters you read about in the various ancient myths that split mountains, cut down armies alone, and cause realms of giants to quiver in fear when said hero enters their territory as they try to kill him (or her) without the hero noticing.
I'm going to embrace the idea. I've read stories of that kind. I feel it is my job as DM to create that type of story for the mythic heroes. I want them to be legends at the end of this feared by demon lords in the deepest layers of The Abyss.
The Characters
Background: The characters are the children of the previous player's Kingmaker PCs. They enjoyed that campaign so much, they wanted to create legacy characters to build upon history of the kingdom they built.
The Kingdom of Tre'aravand is the largest in existence. It borders Numeria, Ustalav, Mendev, and Kyonin. The River Kingdoms, Brevoy, Galt, Razmiran, and all land to the East not claimed by other kingdoms they consider their territory. King Kael is at war with Numeria and Ustalav, the two nations having formed an alliance to check the power of Kael and his companions. The king is chaotic neutral, but the kingdom is neutral good due to the influence of the king's companions. The war with Numeria and Ustalav is why the parents are unable to come north to stop The Worldwound.
I let them roll using a generous ability generation system. They all have multiple starting 18s and good all around stats. I figure if they're going to rise to mythical status, why not have mythical abilities.
The characters:
Luthor, of King Kael and Adriana Irovetti, Sister of Castruccio Irovetti: CN Human Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 3. He wields a greatsword and looks like a demonic beast when raging. He hates his father and loves his mother. He hopes to one day kill his father.
Vesper, Daughter of King Kael and Adriana Irovetti, Sister of Castruccio Irovetti: CG Human Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 3. She wields a rapier and glides around the battlefield. She tries to quell her brother's hate for their father and bring the family closer together.
Salindria, Child of Destiny, Daughter of Prime Minister Acerak NG Half-elf Paladin of Desna 2/Slayer 1. It is her dream that leads the characters to Kenabres in their time of need. I allowed the player to make a paladin of Desna because I thought it fit the adventure's plot.
Hiro, Son of Prime Minister Acerak: N Human Arcanist 3. He is the son of Calistria.
Soranna Rae Angelborn, Son of Idora and a Valathiel, a Solar of Sarenrae: Half-celestial (Aasimar) Oracle of Life (Purifier) 3.
Azael Angelborn, Son of Idora and a Valathiel, a Solar of Sarenrae: Half-celestial (Aasimar) Paladin of Sarenrae 3.
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After much grousing and malingering, I've decided to give Mythic Adventures a shot. Not sure how much I'll like it given the insane difficulty of challenging the players, but I'm taking the Mythic Adventures challenge.
You know, that the Mythic Adventures challenge might has longer lasting effects than the ice bucket challenge? Just ask Magnuskn, i suspect he will feel the effects of that one for some time. But to be more constructive and less mean:
The Characters
Background: The characters are the children of the previous player's Kingmaker PCs. They enjoyed that campaign so much, they wanted to create legacy characters to build upon history of the kingdom they built.
The Kingdom of Tre'aravand is the largest in existence. It borders Numeria, Ustalav, Mendev, and Kyonin. The River Kingdoms, Brevoy, Galt, Razmiran, and all land to the East not claimed by other kingdoms they consider their territory. King Kael is at war with Numeria and Ustalav, the two nations having formed an alliance to check the power of Kael and his companions. The king is chaotic neutral, but the kingdom is neutral good due to the influence of the king's companions. The war with Numeria and Ustalav is why the parents are unable to come north to stop The Worldwound.
I let them roll using a generous ability generation system. They all have multiple starting 18s and good all around stats. I figure if they're going to rise to mythical status, why not have mythical abilities.
The characters:
Luthor, of King Kael and Adriana Irovetti, Sister of Castruccio Irovetti: CN Human Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 3. He wields a greatsword and looks like a demonic beast when raging. He hates his father and loves his mother. He hopes to one day kill his father.
Vesper, Daughter of King Kael and Adriana Irovetti, Sister of Castruccio Irovetti: CG Human Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 3. She wields a rapier and glides around the battlefield. She tries to quell her brother's hate for their father and bring the family closer together.
Salindria, Child of Destiny, Daughter of Prime Minister Acerak NG Half-elf Paladin of Desna 2/Slayer 1. It is her dream that leads the characters to Kenabres in their time of need. I allowed the player to make a paladin of Desna because I thought it fit the adventure's plot.
Hiro, Son of Prime Minister Acerak: N Human Arcanist 3. He is the son of Calistria.
Soranna Rae Angelborn, Son of Idora and a Valathiel, a...
Good luck, remember 6 players is a lot, usually you wan increase the number of enemies by 100 %
Small note. There is an easy way to compensate monster stats with rolled stats.
Take the rolled stats and figure out their point-stat equivalent.
Take the average of those points (with several 18s you're talking probably over 50 point builds and probably over 60 point builds) and rebuild monster stats according to this chart:
+1 to each stat = 25 point build
+2 to each stat = 37 point build
+3 to each stat = 51 point build
+4 to each stat = 68 point build
This is a far better method than just using the Advanced Template = a +2 to armor class in addition to a +2 to armor from Dexterity modifiers is overkill.
So with those stats, you probably just add +4 to all stats of every monster in there and double the number of monsters. It becomes a more balanced fight once more, with happy players with uber stats.
Small note. There is an easy way to compensate monster stats with rolled stats.
Take the rolled stats and figure out their point-stat equivalent.
Take the average of those points (with several 18s you're talking probably over 50 point builds and probably over 60 point builds) and rebuild monster stats according to this chart:
+1 to each stat = 25 point build
+2 to each stat = 37 point build
+3 to each stat = 51 point build
+4 to each stat = 68 point buildThis is a far better method than just using the Advanced Template = a +2 to armor class in addition to a +2 to armor from Dexterity modifiers is overkill.
So with those stats, you probably just add +4 to all stats of every monster in there and double the number of monsters. It becomes a more balanced fight once more, with happy players with uber stats.
That's exactly what I do. I use a similar multiple with hit points to deal with the multiplicative effect of damage dealers beyond the usual two in a four person group.
Half Celestial is not the same as an Aasimar. The Aasimar doesn't have LA and doesn't have direct celestial ascendency, more like far celestial ascendency.
I've added a 7th player:
Cerulean Half-fiend (Human) LG Warpriest of Erastil: Youngest son of Grand Marshall Tanina Uluovae of Tre'aravand. Son a named demon that disguised himself as PC's husband and had relations with the Grand Marshall. The Church of Erastil wanted to put the child down. Tanina kept it and raised him to be a proper Erastilite.
Everyone from the former Kingmaker campaign is now present and accounted for. Now I have the joy of trying to challenge them.
I will start documenting the modifications I make to the campaign to make it challenging. I'll focus mostly on modifications to the mythic creatures. Non-mythic creatures will use the normal Pathfinder rules with possibly hit point increases for what I term as brutes. I define brutes as physical creatures with few, if any, magical abilities whose survival relies solely on their ability to soak damage. Usually creatures like hydras, owlbears, single giants, single trolls, chimeras, rocs, and the like.
I am already at the end of my rope with six players. Good luck, man, good luck. ^^
I am already at the end of my rope with six players. Good luck, man, good luck. ^^
Thanks magnuskn. It's going to be tough. My barbarian player with the massive number of hit points is asking me to nerf Mythic Power Attack because I showed him how it will kill him. I refuse to do it because other players won't have as many hit points. I don't plan to give one player an advantage over the others.
My PCs have ascended. Now it's time to give the mythic rules a run.
Everyone has chosen their mythic path.
1. Luthor: CN Human Invulnerable Rager Barbarian 6/Tier 1 Guardian
2. Vesper: CG Human Inspired Blade Swashbuckler 6/Tier 1 Trickster
3. Salindria: NG Half-elf Paladin of Desna 2/Slayer 4/Tier 1 Trickster
4. Hiro: N Human Blood Arcanist (Destined) 6/Tier 1 Archmage
5. Soranna Rae Angelborn: Half-celestial (Aasimar) Oracle of Life (Purifier) 6/Tier 1 Hierophant
6. Azazel Angelborn: Half-celestial (Aasimar) Oath of Vengeance Paladin of Sarenrae 6/Tier 1 Champion
7. Cerulean Half-fiend (Human) LG Warpriest of Erastil 6/Tier 1 Champion
These are The Mythic Seven. They will stand against the demon armies of The Worldwound to protect all life in Golarion.
This is going to give my DMing skills a test. It will be a lot harder to walk the fine line between what is too strong and too weak, while making the game fun for the players. I have banned nothing. We have very minimal house rules, most of them for flavor purposes like allowing Weapon Finesse to work for all weapons and allowing clerics to channel positive and negative energy and spontaneously cure and cause wounds spells regardless of alignment. We bumped the fort saves of the ninja and rogue to good because we feel two of the most important saves (Fort and Will) being weak creates a character too vulnerable to death and debilitation.
Now the fun begins.
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This is how I'm setting up my story. It will deviate from the modules somewhat.
Consider the Troop "template" from Reign of Winter (Book 5). You can find information on it in the blogs and the RoW sub-forum.
Consider the Troop "template" from Reign of Winter (Book 5). You can find information on it in the blogs and the RoW sub-forum.
I looked it over. Seems to lack the detail to differentiate one group from another. Do you have examples of how to handle a troop of demons versus a troop of humans?
The Worldwound Incursion ran like a non-mythic module. It provided a sufficient challenge to the players to make them feel like they completed a world-saving victory at the end. Nothing of particular note in the first module other than the Swashbuckler being a very powerful damage dealing class and Arcanist being superior to the wizard and sorcerer due to the variety and power of his options. The Swashbuckler's ability to do extra level damage without any set up requirements is must better than rogue sneak attack. The Arcanist's ability to boost DCs makes their spells much harder to resist.
I've started running Sword of Valor. I threw 20 brimorak and 4 vrock at the PCs. They handily destroyed them.
1. Fleet Charge is every bit as nightmarish as stated on these forums. Everyone has pounce for basically one use of mythic power. This ability was problematic at level 10 with a barbarian. A group of characters with the equivalent of pounce is nightmare times seven, well, times four given four of the PCs have it.
2. Wild Arcana is superior to Inspired Spell: Not sure why Wild Arcana is superior to Inspired Spell, but one is a Swift Action allowing the arcane caster to cast two spells per round and the divine caster can only do one. Strange sense of balance given the superior spell list of the arcane caster. Both are very hard to deal with.
The brimoraks only threat is massive fire damage. That was completely mitigated with a casting of communal resist energy using Inspired Spell making the brimoraks relatively weak enemies easily dispatched by mythic characters.
3. Divine Protection: This feat is insane for an Oracle. It's beneficial to cleric and any class with a decent charisma that can obtain it. It's literally a must take for an Oracle. It definitely puts their saves on the same level as the paladin, a little better even since many oracles focus solely on Charisma, Con, and Dex whereas the paladin usually focuses on Str, Con, and Cha.
4. Mythic Power Attack: Just as insane as advertised on this forum. The way it multiplies damage makes this a must have for any melee PC. This feat epitomizes the adage "He who strikes first wins." Damage inflation on this feat is more than any other ability save for Mythic Vital Strike and Foe-Biter. Given the ease of obtaining a 30% critical rate, I'm seeing a ton of crits. Barbarian using Falchion, Paladin using Scimitar (Sarenrae paladin, so it fits), and Swashbuckler using rapier (Already has Improved Critical with rapier due to Inspired Blade Archetype). It's amusing how a dex-based class like the Swashbuckler is using Mythic Power Attack due to the superiority of the option and no limits disallowing a dex-based finesse class from doing so save for a 13 strength. Very easy and worthwhile to purchase in mythic.
The vrocks decided to do their Dance of Ruin. I had them do it mostly for fun to see if they could get it off. It is generally an inferior tactic given the length of time it takes to enact. Two of the vrocks were killed prior to the dance's completion. The PCs barely felt 10d6 damage.
Long battles against numerous opponents against mythic characters are more time consuming than dangerous. I think I'm going to shift my focus to fewer stronger enemies.
Like others I've read on this forum (magnuskn), I'm going to start narrating non-mythic encounters. No point in running them. They are a waste of time to run. The enemies have no chance of victory. With the PCs having the entire spell list available to them and superior attack options, non-mythic enemies are the equivalent of flies. They buzz and make annoying sounds, but are no real threat.
It seems like the module designers wasted a lot of time designing encounters that are of no consequence in the second module. They provide no challenge for mythic PCs. They have very little to do with the story. I can't imagine the encounters were tested against mythic PCs unless those PCs were neophytes that didn't know the perfect spell to use to overcome an encounter. My players aren't neophytes. They definitely knew how to easily bypass encounters such as the Vescavor infested trench and assassinating opponents with stealth and archery.
This is going to be tough going. I'll keep telling myself "This is mythic. They're supposed to destroy everything non-mythic with relative ease." I can't help but ask myself "If that is the case, why am I running the encounter? Why not narrate it and not waste all of our time?" I think I'm going to stop wasting time. I'm going to need very focused, strong encounters to provide a challenge. I'll pick and choose my spot when they happen.
yes we are quite harmless aren't we! Mwahahahahahahahahahaha!
They did do a minor modification to a couple Mythic rules. I don't recall where, but I do know the Mythic "cast any spell" for wizards was nerfed to be a Standard Action. The other one (cast any previously-memorized-or-known spell) is still a Swift action.
As for the Fleet Charge, my own suggestion makes it slightly less powerful but still damn useful: it is a Move Action. Thus you can get two attacks a round using it (and use Vital Strike with one of them).
They did do a minor modification to a couple Mythic rules. I don't recall where, but I do know the Mythic "cast any spell" for wizards was nerfed to be a Standard Action. The other one (cast any previously-memorized-or-known spell) is still a Swift action.
As for the Fleet Charge, my own suggestion makes it slightly less powerful but still damn useful: it is a Move Action. Thus you can get two attacks a round using it (and use Vital Strike with one of them).
I do not see that modification to Wild Arcana noted anywhere.
Taken from the Paizo site. If they made this modification, they did not update their site.
Wild Arcana (Su): As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without expending a prepared spell or spell slot. The spell must be on one of your arcane class spell lists and must be of a level that you can cast with that arcane spellcasting class. You don't need to have the spell prepared, nor does it need to be on your list of spells known. When casting a spell in this way, you treat your caster level as 2 levels higher for the purpose of any effect dependent on level. You can apply any metamagic feats you know to this spell, but its total adjusted level can't be greater than that of the highest-level arcane spell you can cast from that spellcasting class.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gl - It's right here.
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its in the faq/help menu in the right corner of your screen:)
i know not why they haven't updated the PRD
Edit: Ninja'd by Tangent101, Curse you slow phone!*
*seriously? 3-4 minutes to post a simple reply! a smart phone it is not! :)
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That and I'm a posting ninja. =^-^=
Thanks guys. That will help. Now if only we could see some errata for Mythic Power Attack, Foe-Biter, and Mythic Vital Strike, I might feel better.
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Hahahahahahahahahaha!
oh, you were serious :D
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Probably wishful thinking.
I rebuilt Soltengrebbe.
Rebuild rules:
1. Increased odd abilities to even rounding up. Added +4 to all ability scores. This accounts for the generous statistical generation method used.
2. Applied Advanced Template.
3. Applied house ruled mythic subtype including brute mythic bonus hit point house rule.
Soltengrebbe Advanced Chimera CR 10 XP 9,600 CE Large magical beast/Mythic Rank 4
Init +13/-7; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +20
Defense AC 33, touch 18, flat-footed 28 (+5 Dex, +15 natural, –1 size, +4 mythic)
hp 344 (9d10+72+200 mythic); Fort +18, Ref +15, Will +15
DR 9/cold iron and epic or good and epic; Immune electricity, poison; resistance Acid 10, cold 10, fire 10.
Offense Speed 30 ft., fly 50 ft. (poor)
Melee bite +24 (2d6+15/19-20 x 2), bite +24 (1d8+15/19-20 x2), gore +23 (1d8+15), 2 claws +23 (1d6+15)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks mythic breath weapon (usable every 1d4 rounds), mythic power (20 uses per day),
Statistics Str 32, Dex 20, Con 26, Int 12, Wis 22, Cha 18
Base Atk +9; CMB +14; CMD 25 (29 vs. trip)
Feats Ability Focus (Mythic Breath), Improved Critical (bite), Mythic Improved Initiative (mythic), Iron Will, Mythic Vital Strike (mythic/x2 damage), Weapon Focus (Bite).
Skills Fly +13, Perception +20, Stealth +13 (+17 in scrubland or brush); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, +4 Stealth in scrubland or brush; Languages Draconic, Abyssal.
Special Abilities
Mythic Breath Weapon (Su) Soltengrebe’s breath weapon is enhanced from a normal chimera’s. It deals 6d8+12 cold damage and 2d8+4 piercing damage in a 40-foot cone of freezing wind and shards of jagged ice (Reflex save DC 28 half). His breath weapon is usable once every 1d4 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Mythic Saves: Add rank to all saves. If save is made, effect has no effect even if normally reduced effect.
Mythic Resilience: A mythic creature may spend one mythic surge to negate a critical hit, spell, or effect to shrug off the damage or debilitating effect.
Mythic Improved Initiative: The bonus on initiative checks granted by Improved Initiative increases by an amount equal to your tier. This bonus stacks with the bonus from Improved Initiative. In addition, instead of rolling initiative, you can expend one use of mythic power to treat your roll as a natural 20.
Coordinated Bites (Ex): If Soltengrebbe attacks a single target with both of its bite attacks, it treats that target as if the target were flat-footed against those attacks.
Crushing Jaws (Ex): If Soltengrebbe hits target with both bite attacks, it can expend one use of mythic power to savage its prey as a free action. This immediately causes 2d6+1d8+20 damage as it chews on the victim. In addition, the victim must succeed at DC 29 save to resist being staggered by the pain for 1d4 rounds.
Demonic (Ex): Soltengrebbe’s transformation has infused it with demonic abilities. It has demon immunities and resistances and has the demon subtype.
Dual Initiative (Ex): Soltengrebbe gets two turns each round, one on its initiative and one on its initiative count -20.
Here is the current version of my house ruled mythic subtype. I added abilities to improve survivability and lethality.
Mythic Subtype: A creature with this subtype is infused with mythic power and is capable of terrible and awe-inspiring feats. Creatures with the mythic subtype gain the following abilities.
Mythic Rank: A creature with the mythic subtype gains 1 to 10 mythic ranks, representing its overall mythic power. Its rank is generally equal to 1/2 its original CR.
Armor Bonus: Add the creature's mythic rank to all of its armor classes (base, touch, flat-footed).
Bonus Hit Points: A creature with d6 Hit Dice gains 6 hit points per mythic rank, a creature with d8 Hit Dice gains 8 hit points per rank, and a creature with d10 or d12 Hit Dice gains 10 hit points per rank. Note that this is the same number of bonus hit points the creature would gain if it had a mythic simple template.
Damage Reduction: A creature with 5 to 10 Hit Dice gains DR 5/epic. A creature with 11 or more Hit Dice gains DR 10/epic. Add a creature’s mythic rank to its DR.
If the creature already has damage reduction, it adds epic to the qualities needed to bypass that reduction. If the damage reduction granted from this subtype has a larger numerical value than the creature's original damage reduction, increase the creature's original damage reduction to the amount of the epic DR. For example, a monster with DR 5/bludgeoning that gains DR 10/epic from the mythic subtype gains DR 10/bludgeoning and epic.
Mythic Saves: Add rank to all saves. If save is made, effect has no effect even if normally reduced effect.
Mythic Attacks: Add rank to attack and damage rolls.
Mythic Special Attacks: Add half rank to DCs to resist all forms of special attacks. Add half rank to each die of damage for breath weapons, spell-like abilities, supernatural, and extraordinary abilities that do hit point damage based on number of dice. Add mythic rank to damage for special attacks such as constrict or rend.
Mythic Resilience: A mythic creature may spend one mythic surge to negate a critical hit, spell, or effect to shrug off the damage or debilitating effect.
Mythic Regeneration: Add a creature’s mythic rank to its regeneration. Increase regeneration by multiple of 1 for every PC over 3 (x2 for 4 PCs, x3 for 5 PCs, x4 for 6 PCs, x5 for 7 PCs, etc.)
Spell Resistance: If the creature has spell resistance, add its mythic rank to its spell resistance.
Mythic Power: The creature gains the mythic power and surge universal monster abilities.The monster's surge die depends on its rank, as summarized in the Mythic Subtype Abilities table.
Ability Bonus: At 2nd rank and every 2 ranks thereafter, the monster gains a permanent +2 bonus to an ability score. If it has multiple bonuses, it can apply them to the same ability score or to different ability scores.
Mythic Feats: At 1st rank and every 2 ranks thereafter, the monster gains a mythic feat. It must meet all of the prerequisites for this feat.
Additional Mythic Abilities: The monster gains a number of mythic abilities equal to its MR + 1. Such abilities can be drawn from the mythic path abilities for mythic heroes or the mythic abilities listed with the monsters in this section, or it can be a new ability you create by taking inspiration from those abilities. These abilities should be thematically appropriate for the creature.
Some new monster abilities are especially powerful; at the GM's discretion, they can count as two abilities toward this total. For example, the mythic fire giant's fire vortex ability could count as two mythic abilities.
In place of a mythic ability, the monster may gain a universal monster ability, such as rend or pounce, either from an existing Bestiary or from this section.
CR: When you're finished adding abilities to the monster, add 1/2 the monster's mythic rank to its CR to determine its new CR. Evaluate the monster at its new CR using the Monster Statistics by CR table to make sure it falls within the expected values for its new CR.
XP: Change the creature's XP award to match its new CR.
Mythic Brute Hit Points: Single, physically powerful creatures that rely solely on their ability to soak damage gain additional hit points equal to mythic rank x 10 for 1st to 10th level PCs, x25 for 11th to 15 level PCs, x100 for 16th to 20th level PCs. Multiply this by an additional one for every character over three (x2 for 4 PCs, x3 for 5 PCs, x4 for 6 PCs, x5 for 7 PCs, etc.) This replaces the normal bonus hit points for mythic creatures.
Universal Monster Abilities
Mythic Power (Su): The mythic monster can draw upon a wellspring of power to accomplish amazing deeds and cheat fate. Each day, it can expend a number of uses of mythic power equal to its mythic rank. This amount is its maximum amount of mythic power. If an ability allows it to regain mythic power, it can never gain more than this amount. The monster automatically has the surge ability, and can use this mythic power to activate it. It may have other abilities that rely on mythic power. Multiply this by an additional multiple of one for every character over three (x2 for 4 PCs, x3 for 5 PCs, x4 for 6 PCs, x5 for 7 PCs, etc.)
Format: mythic power (3/day, surge +1d6); Location: Special Attacks.