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Recently, Paizo leaned a little towards showing support for a racist blog (basically, it was pointed out about a racist, and instead of deleting it's links and support talk like other sites that fight against racism, it left the topic, link, and support up for it).
I was horrified to say the least, BUT, Paizo IS a private site and they can do what they want. I found it ironic that they are supposed to be one of the businesses in RPGs that are against discrimination (whether race, color, creed, orientation, or other types), so leaving blatant discriminatory items up on their site...was rather shocking.
IT sort of went with the talk the talk, but don't walk the walk?
That said, they do have quite an extensive thread for the LGBT crowd which they've left up (though they do restrict some of the talk on LGBT matters and send you to that thread if you talk about it elsewhere).
However, racism is an ugly and terrible thing.
I bring this up, because memories of that terrible topic on these forums came back in memory today as I was reading an article. I found some interesting and relavant items to statements found on these boards (not just in that topic, but in general) regarding racism that occurs right here at Paizo (or on these boards with various comments).
AS such, I thought it would be interesting to quote some of the items from the article and the article link itself. The article is actually spoken from a reverse point of view, in that it is talking from a few who are a white minority in a location where the black majority exists.
White privilege from a white perspective on CNN
When I was a rookie, I was getting a lot of offers for commercials and my black teammates, who were better, were not getting any," he says.Bradley got something else that he says was invaluable -- a glimpse into the private lives of black people. He shared rooms, meals, bus rides and long conversations off the court with his black teammates. He saw the constant racism they experienced and how it fed their anger.
The Public Religion Research Institute recently caused a stir when it released a poll that said three-quarters of white Americans have no nonwhite friends. Some commentators invoked the survey to explain why some whites seem clueless about racial sensitivities: They know no people of color to give them a different perspective.
I just started noticing this subtle and casual racism that nobody around me questioned," says Shaffer, who is now an activist and director of faculty development at Case Western Reserve University in Ohio.
It can all sound so draining -- checking your motivations, trying not to offend black people. Isn't it easier to just declare as a white person that you don't see race?DeYoung says that's actually a subtle way of insulting people of color.
"It diminishes people to not see their race and their culture," says DeYoung, who wrote a memoir about his racial journey entitled "Homecoming: A White Man's Journey through Harlem to Jerusalem."
"The reality is that race affects people's lives, and if you can't see race, you can't see the life they've lived."
That scene captures a character familiar to some blacks: the white person who considers himself an honorary black person because he has a black girlfriend and likes hip-hop music.Yet white people who spend time in an all-black setting seem to reach another conclusion:
"I don't think I can understand what it means to be black," says Williams, the Freedom Summer volunteer who joked that he forgot he was white. "It's much more than being a minority. It's a whole history."
Now, the article is far from being exemplary, there are some problems with it, but I think it brings up some interesting points of view, and some interesting points regarding racism that we see on these board occasionally.
I'd love to see Paizo do more to actually "Walk the Walk" so to say. Have a Trans person be more visible in Paizo's activities and day to day work, have more minorities be shown at the forefront of Paizo and working there.
But even more so, make the boards more respectful of anyone that isn't a White Male. I know many will take task to me on this, but I am NOT a White male (though I'm not comfortable on these boards or at Paizo stating WHAT I am currently...seriously, I am not), and there are times that even I feel intimidated by people on these boards and these comments (and that's saying something, since I'm one of the more blatantly, upfront, speak my mind, tell you what I think type of people...which is occasionally abrasive, but that I try to reign in) and I'm not one who gets intimidated much as these boards can show sometimes.
I find the items above occasionally pop up in threads...and people try to justify their racism on these boards (and because it may be of ignorance, I quoted some of the items above which relate in the article), so the purpose of the thread is really, simply to point out things that occasionally irritate me in the blatant racism I find here occasionally, and sometimes even frighten me.
PS: The above said, Paizo IS better than many other boards in regards to tolerance, and they do stamp down on many things, however, there's still enough to intimidate or even frighten minorities (or any sort, race, orientation or gender, or otherwise) that I felt I wanted to say something.
Recently, Paizo leaned a little towards showing support for a racist blog (basically, it was pointed out about a racist, and instead of deleting it's links and support talk like other sites that fight against racism, it left the topic, link, and support up for it).
Link, please?
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Frankly, as a white male, I find the idea of "white privilege" offensive. Especially the damned if you do, damned if you don't thinking behind it.
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As for the "not seeing race means not seeing part of the identity of someone who isn't white"... I don't know about that. I find that idea to be false in many ways. I find it equally stupid, in fact, to profiling people based on them being white.
I mean, let's say you talk with someone who's fat, or short, or has some other sort of physical appearance that makes them stand out in a crowd. You can imagine that their appearance had SOME impact on their lives, but actually treating them different because of it is to assume that you know *how* it affected their lives. I simply wouldn't do that, because that will just be a case of me prejudicing other people based on very partial information. Similarly, I'm sure that if I pick two black people out of a crowd and ask each of them how being black is affecting their lives, I'm likely to get two different answers. The answers, as usual for humans, will depend not only on the actual lives they had, but also on them as people - different humans react differently to different things. So maybe they both had their father arrested at some point in their childhood, but for one of them it was a traumatic moment and the other one just took it in stride and never looked back at it.
Basically, to profile someone by their race ("see race") is the very definition of racism. Until I know and understand someone, I simply wouldn't let one thing I can know about them just by looking (skin color, for example) dictate how I see them. So no, I don't "see race" similarly to how I don't care about how tall my conversation partner is. And if certain people consider this to be disrespectful, then... well, they might try to accuse me of that, but NOT of racism, because that does not even begin to make sense.
Frankly, as a white male, I find the idea of "white privilege" offensive. Especially the damned if you do, damned if you don't thinking behind it.
You're in good company. People who aren't white find the idea offensive too.
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So, did anyone actually read the article or are we just going to knee-jerk response to "white privilege" and the one quote about seeing race?
Given the title of the thread, I wanted to do my part to fight the ugly face of racism.
Given skin colour isnt race everyone is dumbass wrong.
Yeah, and 'organic' just means carbon-based life. Unfortunately words get conscripted for new meanings like it or not.
I', not really sure that this does anything to help the ugly face of racism. it is just saying the whites are the bad ones as usual while downplaying racism against whites in black dominated areas. It sounds like the other ugly face of racism getting some air time.
And not respecting their culture is not fair, do they understand and respect the difference between a German, Russian or French person or are the just white and have those cultures erased?
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Frankly, as a white male, I find the idea of "white privilege" offensive. Especially the damned if you do, damned if you don't thinking behind it.You're in good company. People who aren't white find the idea offensive too.
While I think white privilege is a thing, I also think the concept is a very crude, unfinshed bludgeon when on such a sensitive topic an obsidian scalpel is needed.
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Every race is racist, of course pointing this out only gets you called a racist.
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While I think white privilege is a thing, I also think the concept is a very crude, unfinshed bludgeon when on such a sensitive topic an obsidian scalpel is needed.Frankly, as a white male, I find the idea of "white privilege" offensive. Especially the damned if you do, damned if you don't thinking behind it.You're in good company. People who aren't white find the idea offensive too.
Y'know, I've been think that majority privilege might be a better phrase since the last thread on this subject.
I've also gotta say that, having read the CNN article (and I'm going to quote here, but I hope the profanity filter is working) however much of an eye-opener an minority majority experience is, calling black people pickaninnies and Puerto Ricans spics, or wiping off a soda can because you don't know if a black person touched it are not subtle examples of racism. I mean, there are members of my extended family who are that racist, but they're not confused about what they're doing.
Given the titles, I couldn't help it:
Vive le Galt!
While I think white privilege is a thing, I also think the concept is a very crude, unfinshed bludgeon when on such a sensitive topic an obsidian scalpel is needed.Frankly, as a white male, I find the idea of "white privilege" offensive. Especially the damned if you do, damned if you don't thinking behind it.You're in good company. People who aren't white find the idea offensive too.Y'know, I've been think that majority privilege might be a better phrase since the last thread on this subject.
I've also gotta say that, having read the CNN article (and I'm going to quote here, but I hope the profanity filter is working) however much of an eye-opener an minority majority experience is, calling black people pickaninnies and Puerto Ricans spics, or wiping off a soda can because you don't know if a black person touched it are not subtle examples of racism. I mean, there are members of my extended family who are that racist, but they're not confused about what they're doing.
Really that is a dead on accurate way to say it.
I'm sure all races have things that over the top, including against white people.
Every race is racist, of course pointing this out only gets you called a racist.Even assuming this is true, given the power structures in the US, this still works out to white being a major advantage and black being heavily discriminated against.
Because there's a major difference between the dominant class being prejudiced against you and an underclass being prejudiced against you.
Unless that underclass is taking its frustrations out on you because of your race. Easy to say whites have it easy until someone close to you is victimized
So, did anyone actually read the article or are we just going to knee-jerk response to "white privilege" and the one quote about seeing race?Given the title of the thread, I wanted to do my part to fight the ugly face of racism.So the "ugly face of racism" is talking about "White privilege".
Actual racism isn't so bad, then?
Racism against whites isn't "actual racism?" Or is white not a race so it's impossible to be racist against whites? Is it too much to ask to just treat people as human beings? That’s a rhetorical question.
Given the titles, I couldn't help it:
Vive le Galt!
Dang it, Anklebiter. Isn’t this topic bad enough without your shenanigans?
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While I think white privilege is a thing, I also think the concept is a very crude, unfinshed bludgeon when on such a sensitive topic an obsidian scalpel is needed.Frankly, as a white male, I find the idea of "white privilege" offensive. Especially the damned if you do, damned if you don't thinking behind it.You're in good company. People who aren't white find the idea offensive too.
Couldn't agree more. While understanding the idea of what a privilege is in this context is important and could help people start down a path where they'll end up wiser, in internet discussions the concept of privilege is taken to be more than it really is. Instead of being a tool to define some aspect of the problem, it became an all encompassing accusation that can account for anything anyone says or does.
This reminds of the way the Bachdel test was warped.
Dang it, Anklebiter. Isn’t this topic bad enough without your shenanigans?Given the titles, I couldn't help it:
Vive le Galt!
Why? 'Cuz I'm a goblin?
You racist.
While I think white privilege is a thing, I also think the concept is a very crude, unfinshed bludgeon when on such a sensitive topic an obsidian scalpel is needed.Frankly, as a white male, I find the idea of "white privilege" offensive. Especially the damned if you do, damned if you don't thinking behind it.You're in good company. People who aren't white find the idea offensive too.Y'know, I've been think that majority privilege might be a better phrase since the last thread on this subject.
I've also gotta say that, having read the CNN article (and I'm going to quote here, but I hope the profanity filter is working) however much of an eye-opener an minority majority experience is, calling black people pickaninnies and Puerto Ricans spics, or wiping off a soda can because you don't know if a black person touched it are not subtle examples of racism. I mean, there are members of my extended family who are that racist, but they're not confused about what they're doing.
One problem with the CNN article is that's it's mostly older references - stories of people who are now adults talking about their childhood/young adult experiences and it doesn't make that entirely clear. It's obvious with the Freedom Summer part, but less so with the others. The high school girl whose family used the racial slurs graduated some 30 years ago.
This leaves the argument open to the response "Well that was back then, we're all post-racial now."
Of course, things like the black male imprisonment rate and police violence against minorities have gotten worse since then, employment rates still lag, and most people claimed it wasnt' discrimination back then, so I don't see why I should believe it's changed that drastically.
And those are discussions worth having. Unfortunately they almost always devolve into flat out cries of racism. Also, there's a real difference between equality and special treatment. I can't see any reason to treat any race as not equal. I can see plenty of reasons to not give certain races special treatment.
Unless that underclass is taking its frustrations out on you because of your race. Easy to say whites have it easy until someone close to you is victimizedEvery race is racist, of course pointing this out only gets you called a racist.Even assuming this is true, given the power structures in the US, this still works out to white being a major advantage and black being heavily discriminated against.
Because there's a major difference between the dominant class being prejudiced against you and an underclass being prejudiced against you.
mm. Interesting point. What have you encountered?
That said, would you rather be non-white in this society?
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Unless that underclass is taking its frustrations out on you because of your race. Easy to say whites have it easy until someone close to you is victimizedEvery race is racist, of course pointing this out only gets you called a racist.Even assuming this is true, given the power structures in the US, this still works out to white being a major advantage and black being heavily discriminated against.
Because there's a major difference between the dominant class being prejudiced against you and an underclass being prejudiced against you.
mm. Interesting point. What have you encountered?
That said, would you rather be non-white in this society?
Honestly yes, i would rather be asian or hispanic. i do agree that on the whole blacks face more issues, though some is self inflicted and i do not care much for most black culture like music, food, etc. As a white person my culture is treated as something to be ashamed of, and minority groups are more free to express and revel in their unique heritages. Mix up a puerto rican and a mexican and you will catch hell. Mix up a german and french man, or just say they are both just white, and HE will be in the wrong to argue it. I hate not being able to have an identity the way that minority groups are allowed to.
While I think white privilege is a thing, I also think the concept is a very crude, unfinshed bludgeon when on such a sensitive topic an obsidian scalpel is needed.Frankly, as a white male, I find the idea of "white privilege" offensive. Especially the damned if you do, damned if you don't thinking behind it.You're in good company. People who aren't white find the idea offensive too.Y'know, I've been think that majority privilege might be a better phrase since the last thread on this subject.
I've also gotta say that, having read the CNN article (and I'm going to quote here, but I hope the profanity filter is working) however much of an eye-opener an minority majority experience is, calling black people pickaninnies and Puerto Ricans spics, or wiping off a soda can because you don't know if a black person touched it are not subtle examples of racism. I mean, there are members of my extended family who are that racist, but they're not confused about what they're doing.
Racism can be obvious, but it's more dangerous when it's subtle. That's just my experience, though.
And those are discussions worth having. Unfortunately they almost always devolve into flat out cries of racism. Also, there's a real difference between equality and special treatment. I can't see any reason to treat any race as not equal. I can see plenty of reasons to not give certain races special treatment.That's because racism is still strong in this country. It's just a little subtler than it was.
And certain races do still get special treatment. It's great to talk about treating every one equally, but that's not the reality. Pretending it is doesn't make it so.
That's my point. I'm not pretending that race equality exists at all. And I know there are plenty of people of every race fighting to make sure real equality never happens. Hate crime laws are a good example of special treatment compared to equality.
If you had to pick two people to sit down and hash out race issues would you rather have Ben Carson and Bill Gates or Jesse Jackson and David Duke?
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Ooh ooh!
Racism can be obvious, but it's more dangerous when it's subtle. That's just my experience, though.
I don't disagree; subtle racism is certainly harder to tease apart and deal with, and I say that as a patrician New England WASP; if it weren't for subtle discrimination, I wouldn't have any cultural identity at all! :P
I mean honestly, having introduced the term majority privilege, now I'm thinking that white privilege is a different thing, and that both should be defined, but I don't have the energy to dance around so many hot button terms this early in the morning.
Ooh ooh!
Will you please stop bringing up that nutty Cornel West? The dude's lost it.
Dude, what are you talking about? Cornel West is the closest I get to mainstream.
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I think what gets me the most about people who talk about racism in threads like this is that it's discussed almost like it's not real. The effects on actual people aren't real. Like it doenst and hasnt effected real people and the people it does effect had it coming because of the group they are part of.
No one is saying that "white" culture is bad. And yes "whites" do get grouped together because "blacks" get grouped together. It's like watching a room full of people with obvious intelligence (INT 15 on average) but no empathy and really, really low wisdom scores (WIS 5 on average). Theoretical application has it's place. But how the real world works and what happens in the real world in terms of race is very different from what a lot of people in this thread think.
I used to (and still do) get angry because I really used to think a lot of the stuff that I read on boards like this one come from a place of malice. I think now I'm just starting to see that while that may be a factor, some of it is just plain lack of empathy and either lack of exposure or willful ignorance. I'm not sure how I should feel about any of that. I mean lack of empathy is pretty typical in this country these days so there's not a lot I can do there.
Either way I figured that this conversation would turn toward the typical canards of "blacks are racist too" "it's not as bad as they say it is" "and white people are victims of racism too" and I was pretty much right. Talking about racism on boards like this one IS an exercise in pissing in the wind. The majority here dont see it as a problem or something that effects them or people that they care about to view it with any sort of empathy or humanity. That's not an indictment, it's just the truth. Issues here with women and LGBT groups are viewed differently simply because everyone here has a female in their lives at some point. It's easier to empathize. The same with LGBT's to an extent.
There is little to almost no empathy here for people of color again not an indictment.
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Also, I've worked with a lot of Spanish-speakers and the only time I ever caught hell for calling a Puerto Rican a Mexican or vice versa (mostly because I'd ask the Spanish-speakers where they were from before referring to them as either a Puerto Rican or a Mexican) was when I was working at the airport with Toro.
He had a tattoo of Tweetie Bird and one time he was flirting with one of the cleaning ladies when we were supposed to be working. "Hey, c'mon, Toro, the plane's here." He made a dismissive hand gesture. "Hey, Toro, Arriba! Arriba! Andele! Andele!"
He got up in my face, poking his hand at me with the pinkie and pointer extended (horns of the bull, he did that a lot, his name was Toro after all).
"Hey, man, I'm not Mexican, I'm Puerto Rican. Don't ever f%%!ing call me Mexican." He then went on a racist rant against Mexicans. Then he smiled. "Ha, ha, El Pussygato!* I'm just f#+&in' with you!"
*I'd explain why he called me that, but it'd involve telling you my real name.
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. . . Felix Heathcliff Garfield?