Fighting the ugly face of racism


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Simon Legrande wrote:


What is the next step after everyone acknowledges it? What is the ultimate goal behind having all white people agree that white privilege exists?

Working to eliminate it.

It's hard to get rid of what you don't even recognize.

If you recognize that minorities are subject to an unwarranted level of police harassment, what enforceable policy changes would you recommend?

Simply saying "police should treat everyone as individuals" isn't enforceable. How do you determine whether or not any given policeman --- or the department as a whole -- is following the policy?

Saying "I'll continue to treat others as I wish to be treated, as individuals" is an implicit acceptance and approval of the status quo.

Bugleyman put it well:

Quote:


[I]gnoring race entirely -- assuming such a thing is possible -- actually enables racism unless everyone does it.

Or, as it was put elsewhere, "the standard you walk past is the standard you accept."

Grand Lodge

Simon Legrande wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:

Do whites practice racism? Absolutely.

Do blacks practice racism? Absolutely.
Do Hispanics practice racism? Absolutely.
Do I practice racism? Never.

However:

Do whites have an entrenched advantage in the U.S. overall? Absolutely.
Do blacks have an entrenched advantage in the U.S.? Absolutely not.
Do hispanics have an entrenched advantage in the U.S.? Absolutely not.
Do I benefit from this power disparity? Often, even if I don't see it.
Sure, I'll agree with that. Am I going to feel guilty about something I have no control over? Absolutely not. I'll continue to treat others as I wish to be treated, as individuals. If guilt isn't the point, as some have said, then what is the point? What is the next step after everyone acknowledges it? What is the ultimate goal behind having all white people agree that white privilege exists?

Actively working to subvert its effects when possible. Seeing a more fair representation of other people in places of power. Unraveling many of the racist assumptions that plague our criminal justice system. Recognizing and eliminating racial barriers to entry into higher education and economic strata. Creating more diverse media portrayals.

To put it succinctly, an all around leveling of the playing field that begins to undo many of the ills caused by our history.


ShinHakkaider wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
bugleyman wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
That chip up there is called collectivism. I keep it there as a reminder that even though I wish to be treated as an individual and strive to treat others the same, that will usually be considered bad because many other people would rather identify themselves by the group they belong to. Every now and then someone comes along and tries to load some guilt up there too. Because for some reason I should be held accountable for the actions of people I've never met just because we have the same skin color. Well there's no room for the guilt so don't expect me to feel any.

Nor should you.

But refusing to acknowledge racism doesn't eliminate it, just as the act of acknowledging racism is not itself racist.

I'm not sure that I ever said racism doesn't exist. I'm quite aware of its existence partly in thanks to the term "white privilege". I'm acknowledging that racism exists on all sides and that anyone who says only whites can be racist is flat out wrong. The way I see it, the only way to eliminate racism is for ALL people to stop practicing it.

That sounds great but so far your only point in this entire thread is to talk about how racism somehow overwhelmingly effects whites.

While I'm sure racism DOES effect whites you come across like the man in a thread discussing sexism and sexual assualt that cries out "but men are victims of rape too!!"

Men ARE victims of rape. Absolutely. But the OVERWHELMING victims of rape and sexual assault are women. And the guy no matter how well meaning who cries out that "men are raped too!!" comes across as trying to deflect from the actual problem. Some people would call that a sense of entitlement from being male. Some would call it a form of silencing. You know "well the people complaining of racism are racists too so they should just shut up." or "if everyone just stopped being racist/talking about racism/acknowledging race" etc...
Me I just call it poor form old...

That is a tough statistic to talk about. In the United States in 2008 it is estimated (ie, that isn't a reporting number) that 91,000 rapes happened of which 91% were female victims. Unless you count all rapes, including prison rapes, in which case the number goes upto a bit over 300,000 and 68% of the victims are male.

With no question, more men are raped in the United States than women. The question then becomes, should we care about statistics if a large portion of the population are prisoners or do we limit the discussion to less than 1/3 of victims because they aren't in jail.

Though call, certainly not black and white.


The greatest compliment I ever received as a teacher was this little ditty:

"Do you know why you're such a good teacher, Mr. NH?"
"No, why?"
"Because to you, I'm just another student."

Such profound wisdom in such a short little dialog.


BigDTBone wrote:
With no question, more men are raped in the United States than women. The question then becomes, should we care about statistics if a large portion of the population are prisoners or do we limit the discussion to less than 1/3 of victims because they aren't in jail.

There's a difference between limiting the discussion and separating two distinct discussions. Unless you feel there's actually a useful lesson to be learned by conflating the two, you're simply muddying the waters -- and generally poisoning wells, to boot.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Simon Legrande wrote:
Sure, I'll agree with that. Am I going to feel guilty about something I have no control over? Absolutely not. I'll continue to treat others as I wish to be treated, as individuals. If guilt isn't the point, as some have said, then what is the point? What is the next step after everyone acknowledges it? What is the ultimate goal behind having all white people agree that white privilege exists?

The point is that once we realize white privilege exists, it enables us to better critically evaluate ideas like "treating everyone the same" as a solution to racism, and realize why they are flawed. It enables us to look at claims of "reverse racism" and realize that what people who make those claims are frequently reacting to is not, in fact, an attack on white PEOPLE, but rather on white PRIVILEGE. In other words, getting people to acknowledge white privilege exists AND that acknowledging said privilege isn't an attack on an individual's moral standing are both necessary steps in getting people to draw the distinction between talking about institutionalized privilege and how to deconstruct it without having people react defensively as if they themselves were being targeted.


BigDTBone wrote:

That is a tough statistic to talk about. In the United States in 2008 it is estimated (ie, that isn't a reporting number) that 91,000 rapes happened of which 91% were female victims. Unless you count all rapes, including prison rapes, in which case the number goes upto a bit over 300,000 and 68% of the victims are male.

With no question, more men are raped in the United States than women. The question then becomes, should we care about statistics if a large portion of the population are prisoners or do we limit the discussion to less than 1/3 of victims because they aren't in jail.

Though call, certainly not black and white.

Huge sidetrack, but I'd say neither.

Prison rape (and prison conditions generally) is a huge problem and one that urgently needs to be dealt with. But it's such an entirely different problem that it really doesn't belong in the more general discussion about rape, but in the discussion about prison reform.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
With no question, more men are raped in the United States than women. The question then becomes, should we care about statistics if a large portion of the population are prisoners or do we limit the discussion to less than 1/3 of victims because they aren't in jail.

There's a difference between limiting the discussion and separating two distinct discussions. Unless you feel there's actually a useful lesson to be learned by conflating the two, you're simply muddying the waters -- and generally poisoning wells, to boot.

Not really, it's actually tied up with our discussion on white priviledge. 1/3 of black males baby's born today will see the inside of a prison cell (not jail, prison) while only 1/17 white males babies will.

Treating rape as a women's issue is part of white privilege.

Now, if you want to talk about date-rape or partner-rape those are distinct discussions but they shouldn't be lumped together in a problem solving discussion anymore than prison rape.


EntrerisShadow wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:

Do whites practice racism? Absolutely.

Do blacks practice racism? Absolutely.
Do Hispanics practice racism? Absolutely.
Do I practice racism? Never.

However:

Do whites have an entrenched advantage in the U.S. overall? Absolutely.
Do blacks have an entrenched advantage in the U.S.? Absolutely not.
Do hispanics have an entrenched advantage in the U.S.? Absolutely not.
Do I benefit from this power disparity? Often, even if I don't see it.
Sure, I'll agree with that. Am I going to feel guilty about something I have no control over? Absolutely not. I'll continue to treat others as I wish to be treated, as individuals. If guilt isn't the point, as some have said, then what is the point? What is the next step after everyone acknowledges it? What is the ultimate goal behind having all white people agree that white privilege exists?

Actively working to subvert its effects when possible. Seeing a more fair representation of other people in places of power. Unraveling many of the racist assumptions that plague our criminal justice system. Recognizing and eliminating racial barriers to entry into higher education and economic strata. Creating more diverse media portrayals.

To put it succinctly, an all around leveling of the playing field that begins to undo many of the ills caused by our history.

I'll tell you what, you vote to make me Emperor of America and I will gladly do all of those things on day one. Since I will never have the power to enact any of those changes anywhere except in my personal life, which I have already done, maybe you should look to your own lives and start making changes.

And I particularly love Orfamay's comment that me saying I have no power to change the world and course of human behavior means that I'm totally cool with the way things are. Good call dude, you nailed it.


thejeff wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

That is a tough statistic to talk about. In the United States in 2008 it is estimated (ie, that isn't a reporting number) that 91,000 rapes happened of which 91% were female victims. Unless you count all rapes, including prison rapes, in which case the number goes upto a bit over 300,000 and 68% of the victims are male.

With no question, more men are raped in the United States than women. The question then becomes, should we care about statistics if a large portion of the population are prisoners or do we limit the discussion to less than 1/3 of victims because they aren't in jail.

Though call, certainly not black and white.

Huge sidetrack, but I'd say neither.

Prison rape (and prison conditions generally) is a huge problem and one that urgently needs to be dealt with. But it's such an entirely different problem that it really doesn't belong in the more general discussion about rape, but in the discussion about prison reform.

No doubt, but when we use the general term we should include all the players. If we are talking about problem solving then non-prison rape has a number of smaller divisions which need their own strategies but still collectively fall under the same umbrella.


BigDTBone wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
With no question, more men are raped in the United States than women. The question then becomes, should we care about statistics if a large portion of the population are prisoners or do we limit the discussion to less than 1/3 of victims because they aren't in jail.
There's a difference between limiting the discussion and separating two distinct discussions. Unless you feel there's actually a useful lesson to be learned by conflating the two, you're simply muddying the waters -- and generally poisoning wells, to boot.

Not really, it's actually tied up with our discussion on white priviledge. 1/3 of black males baby's born today will see the inside of a prison cell (not jail, prison) while only 1/17 white males babies will.

Treating rape as a women's issue is part of white privilege.

Now, if you want to talk about date-rape or partner-rape those are distinct discussions but they shouldn't be lumped together in a problem solving discussion anymore than prison rape.

I'd agree that prison rape is more closely tied to racism than to rape in general.


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This is a very, very sad way of discussing. Starting by saying "you gotta acknowledge collective white privilege to be accepted in this discussion", claiming this is important despite a complete absence of things we as individuals can do to correct it, showing deplorable police policies as examples of this untouchable collectivist power structure (seriously, tear up the police departments enough and you will solve that particular piece of s%%$), all of it channeling into "white privilege is the central problem here, but we're not blaming you white guys, just know that the only reason your lives aren't living hell is because of white privilege and don't forget evil white men kept slave m'kay?" It is a collectivistic circle jerk. The way to solve this is to give up the crap about collective identities, ensure Rule of Law is reinstated (this would efficiently kill off all the driving while black offenses, btw), and yes, let us treat each other with empathy. Don't forget, what you're saying above is very close to saying people don't have empathy.

Blah.

It is also worth mentioning that the much vaunted "level playing field", at least in the area of university applications and affirmative action led directly to asian-americans getting an even worse deal than whites did. Should then the asian-americans be given restitution for this?


Simon Legrande wrote:


And I particularly love Orfamay's comment that me saying I have no power to change the world and course of human behavior means that I'm totally cool with the way things are. Good call dude, you nailed it.

If you think you have no power, you're almost certainly correct.

I stand by my statement. If you're simply going to walk past white privilege, then you're accepting it, not fighting it.


Since I felt the previous post deserves its own place, now I'll ramble a bit. Many people have said many excellent things. I'm going to stir the pot a bit, because I have opinions that will offend many and I'd love to see some intelligent responses (which is what I've seen on this thread so far -- good job, folks).

- In my "ideal world", I treat every single person the same, regardless of skin color, gender, or anything else.
-- As a result of this, I bristle at people who demand 'cultural heritage' or 'recognition of prior oppression' or whatever you want to call it. I have not experienced every culture on Earth. I cannot possibly achieve this goal. The best I can do is treat you exactly the same as I would treat anyone else. If you demand more, I refuse. Does it make me a racist to refuse to treat someone differently because of their race or gender or whatnot?

- I have seen the ugly faces of racism and sexism.
-- Growing up in the S.F. Bay Area, I heard blacks decrying racism and thought, "What kind of victimist culture is that?"
-- Moving to the California central valley, I learned that racism is alive and well and frighteningly strong throughout the U.S. It was a scary, scary eye-opener.
-- Anyone who denies that racism is alive and well needs to open their eyes.

- I have suffered police profiling.
-- I was a 1980's punker in a small town. I couldn't go out after dark without being pulled over by the police so they could question me.
-- I learned that telling the truth and being respectful worked wonders with police officers, and just planned for an extra 5 minutes every night for my 'chat with police'
-- I acknowledge that I could have dressed better and avoided the harassment, while many cannot change their skin color to avoid it, but again, I'd love to hear anecdotal accounts of those who were friendly, truthful, and respectful, and still didn't get let go after only a couple of minutes.

- My personal beliefs center around 'homogenization'. If you want to be an accepted part of the culture, you must accept the culture.
-- If I were to move to China, I would expect to learn Chinese, dress as my Chinese compatriots did, eat their foods, and otherwise accept the 'majority culture'. I would NOT try to create my own enclave of people who spoke my language, ate my foods, and otherwise refused to accept that they were living in a different culture. It's easier and more comfortable to separate yourselves, but it opens you up to discrimination.
-- I see a great deal of 'racism' arising because of an absolute resistance to this idea. "I am from another culture. I want to live with you, but I reject your ideas of a 'cultural norm'." Call me a racist, but I reject the idea that adhering to the standards of the place you are living as 'racist' or 'culturalist'.

Anyway, I'm enjoying the conversation, and just wanted to poke the pot a bit because I'm a pain.

EDIT: Looking at the posts that appeared since I started typing this, it looks like I'm falling into the "white privilege" camp: I live in the dominant culture, so I expect *you* to adapt to fit mine. I'll acknowledge this, with the caveat that "white privilege" is just current U.S. culture. You can adapt to fit it, or you can demand that it adapt to fit you. Which is more reasonable?
And again, I've seen horrific racism and sexism in action. I *know* that they exist. But my strongly-held opinion is that if we'd choose one cultural norm and stick to it we'd be better off. And if I have to change because of it, so be it.


NobodysHome wrote:
The best I can do is treat you exactly the same as I would treat anyone else. If you demand more, I refuse. Does it make me a racist to refuse to treat someone differently because of their race or gender or whatnot?

Yes.

Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
NobodysHome wrote:


- My personal beliefs center around 'homogenization'. If you want to be an accepted part of the culture, you must accept the culture.
-- If I were to move to China, I would expect to learn Chinese, dress as my Chinese compatriots did, eat their foods, and otherwise accept the 'majority culture'. I would NOT try to create my own enclave of people who spoke my language, ate my foods, and otherwise refused to accept that they were living in a different culture. It's easier and more comfortable to separate yourselves, but it opens you up to discrimination.
-- I see a great deal of 'racism' arising because of an absolute resistance to this idea. "I am from another culture. I want to live with you, but I reject your ideas of a 'cultural norm'." Call me a racist, but I reject the idea that adhering to the standards of the place you are living as 'racist' or 'culturalist'.

Define American Culture please?


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MrTsFloatinghead wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:
Sure, I'll agree with that. Am I going to feel guilty about something I have no control over? Absolutely not. I'll continue to treat others as I wish to be treated, as individuals. If guilt isn't the point, as some have said, then what is the point? What is the next step after everyone acknowledges it? What is the ultimate goal behind having all white people agree that white privilege exists?
The point is that once we realize white privilege exists, it enables us to better critically evaluate ideas like "treating everyone the same" as a solution to racism, and realize why they are flawed. It enables us to look at claims of "reverse racism" and realize that what people who make those claims are frequently reacting to is not, in fact, an attack on white PEOPLE, but rather on white PRIVILEGE. In other words, getting people to acknowledge white privilege exists AND that acknowledging said privilege isn't an attack on an individual's moral standing are both necessary steps in getting people to draw the distinction between talking about institutionalized privilege and how to deconstruct it without having people react defensively as if they themselves were being targeted.

So treating everyone the same regardless of race is still racism. And nobody will ever understand real racism because nobody can actually be another race. And asking how to end racism is being overly defensive. Why are you promoting the continuation of racism?


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
The best I can do is treat you exactly the same as I would treat anyone else. If you demand more, I refuse. Does it make me a racist to refuse to treat someone differently because of their race or gender or whatnot?

Yes.

Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.

This is about the best argument against having this kind of discussion at all. Seriously, if treating people the same is STILL racism, it is quite simply not something that can be avoided.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Sissyl wrote:

This is a very, very sad way of discussing. Starting by saying "you gotta acknowledge collective white privilege to be accepted in this discussion", claiming this is important despite a complete absence of things we as individuals can do to correct it, showing deplorable police policies as examples of this untouchable collectivist power structure (seriously, tear up the police departments enough and you will solve that particular piece of s~*$), all of it channeling into "white privilege is the central problem here, but we're not blaming you white guys, just know that the only reason your lives aren't living hell is because of white privilege and don't forget evil white men kept slave m'kay?" It is a collectivistic circle jerk. The way to solve this is to give up the crap about collective identities, ensure Rule of Law is reinstated (this would efficiently kill off all the driving while black offenses, btw), and yes, let us treat each other with empathy. Don't forget, what you're saying above is very close to saying people don't have empathy.

Blah.

It is also worth mentioning that the much vaunted "level playing field", at least in the area of university applications and affirmative action led directly to asian-americans getting an even worse deal than whites did. Should then the asian-americans be given restitution for this?

Kill all the blacks and I'm sure that will fix everything!

See how out of left field that was? That's exactly how I view your hyperbolic response to an otherwise civil conversation that's going on here.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Sissyl wrote:

This is a very, very sad way of discussing. Starting by saying "you gotta acknowledge collective white privilege to be accepted in this discussion", claiming this is important despite a complete absence of things we as individuals can do to correct it, showing deplorable police policies as examples of this untouchable collectivist power structure (seriously, tear up the police departments enough and you will solve that particular piece of s$~%), all of it channeling into "white privilege is the central problem here, but we're not blaming you white guys, just know that the only reason your lives aren't living hell is because of white privilege and don't forget evil white men kept slave m'kay?" It is a collectivistic circle jerk. The way to solve this is to give up the crap about collective identities, ensure Rule of Law is reinstated (this would efficiently kill off all the driving while black offenses, btw), and yes, let us treat each other with empathy. Don't forget, what you're saying above is very close to saying people don't have empathy.

Blah.

Sissyl, so much of this begs response, but I'll just center on this one thing I've bolded.

You said we need to "Reinstate" the Rule of Law. That sounds suspiciously like an appeal to some idealized past... I ask you, when, exactly, in the past would you have us return to in our implementation of the rule of law? Moreover, given the fact that the inequality of today seems to have its roots in the injustices of the past, what is your evidence that returning to that past would somehow be better?


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
The best I can do is treat you exactly the same as I would treat anyone else. If you demand more, I refuse. Does it make me a racist to refuse to treat someone differently because of their race or gender or whatnot?

Yes.

Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.

I have to agree with Sissyl. This is just a discussion-ender right here.

I am required to learn the needs of every culture on Earth or I'm a racist.

I guess I'm a racist.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
The best I can do is treat you exactly the same as I would treat anyone else. If you demand more, I refuse. Does it make me a racist to refuse to treat someone differently because of their race or gender or whatnot?

Yes.

Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.

That is simply too generic to be reasonable. What you suggest is direct racism. The kind that gets you shanked. As someone who worked retail in a neighborhood where the residents weren't the same color as me, I had to learn quickly that if I attempted to "respect the culture" of those in my neighborhood that I was causing offense.

In general, stranger/stranger encounters you should treat everyone the same. In friendships/partnerships/relationships/aquaintencships if that person wishes you to integrate cultural observations into your exchanges, they will tell you.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:


And I particularly love Orfamay's comment that me saying I have no power to change the world and course of human behavior means that I'm totally cool with the way things are. Good call dude, you nailed it.

If you think you have no power, you're almost certainly correct.

I stand by my statement. If you're simply going to walk past white privilege, then you're accepting it, not fighting it.

Spoiler:
your post sounds like:
You're wrong. Too bad. Guess what, there's nothing you can do about it because I stand by that.

Sissyl wrote:
This is a very, very sad way of discussing. Starting by saying "you gotta acknowledge collective white privilege to be accepted in this discussion", claiming this is important despite a complete absence of things we as individuals can do to correct it,

We have a very interesting public policy tool in my society. It's called an "election."

You see, unlike where you live, in my country, laws are mutable and can be changed. Periodically, there's a mass gathering where people who are interested in what the structure of the laws are get together and decide (individually) whom we wish to make laws on our behalf. If we're serious about it, we are even given the opportunity to affect whom the candidates are going to be, for example, by attending caucuses or primaries or campaigning for specific people whose probity and judgment we trust.

If enough people, for example, decided to promote effective and enforceable public policies to reduce or eliminate privilege, it would be fairly simple to do so.

I recommend it.

Of course, if you aren't given the opportunity to participate in this process, then that does put a damper on things. For example, there are a number of people -- some of them on this thread, I suspect -- who find the idea of reducing their personal privilege to be sufficiently threatening that they're willing to support fairly draconic measures to eliminate the votes of the people who might otherwise threaten their privilege. And a number of others who don't care enough about these measures to fight them.


NobodysHome wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
The best I can do is treat you exactly the same as I would treat anyone else. If you demand more, I refuse. Does it make me a racist to refuse to treat someone differently because of their race or gender or whatnot?

Yes.

Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.

I have to agree with Sissyl. This is just a discussion-ender right here.

I am required to learn the needs of every culture on Earth or I'm a racist.

I guess I'm a racist.

Let me hop in the boat with you before you launch.


Sissyl wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.

This is about the best argument against having this kind of discussion at all. Seriously, if treating people the same is STILL racism, it is quite simply not something that can be avoided.

Have you considered treating people the way THEY want to be treated, instead of the way YOU feel they should be treated?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Maps, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Simon Legrande wrote:


So treating everyone the same regardless of race is still racism. And nobody will ever understand real racism because nobody can actually be another race. And asking how to end racism is being overly defensive. Why are you promoting the continuation of racism?

No, being defensive is being defensive. How about instead of lashing out with rhetorical questions, you actually attempt to engage my point. You've conceded that nobody is trying to make you feel guilty, and you've conceded that white power is a real thing. The next obvious question is what should we do about that. You seem to think the answer is nothing, and perversely think "ignore the problem" is the way to make it go away. I'm saying that is unlikely to be true, and further saying that by acknowledging where (and what) the problems really are, we can, in fact, draw a path to solving them.

Again, "treat people the same" is not a solution. I should also say that I find it ironic (in the literal, correct sense of the word) that you conflate "treating people as distinct individuals with different experiences" with "collectivist thinking" and "Treat everyone like I want to be treated" as some pathway to honoring differences.


ShinHakkaider: The discussion was far from civil. Don't pretend.

MrTsFloatinghead: The principles of Rule of Law were in far better force some time ago, this is true. Heard of Habeas Corpus? Right of peaceful assembly? The reasons for these changes are many, but a particularly egregious issue is that Equal before the law got shot down with various demands for a "level playing field". No, I don't think everything was better at some previous point in history - that doesn't change the fact that some things were. Accountability, removal of stupid rubber paragraphs and revised police guidelines should work wonders to improve race relations, wouldn't you think?


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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.

This is about the best argument against having this kind of discussion at all. Seriously, if treating people the same is STILL racism, it is quite simply not something that can be avoided.
Have you considered treating people the way THEY want to be treated, instead of the way YOU feel they should be treated?

Again, you cannot possibly know that without having a relationship. For stranger/stranger encounters it is simply not possible.


BigDTBone wrote:

Again, you cannot possibly know that without having a relationship. For stranger/stranger encounters it is simply not possible.

Yeah, it's funny how you never speak to strangers.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
NobodysHome wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
NobodysHome wrote:
The best I can do is treat you exactly the same as I would treat anyone else. If you demand more, I refuse. Does it make me a racist to refuse to treat someone differently because of their race or gender or whatnot?

Yes.

Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.

I have to agree with Sissyl. This is just a discussion-ender right here.

I am required to learn the needs of every culture on Earth or I'm a racist.

I guess I'm a racist.

What are we talking about here? I'm an AMERICAN I was born here. I've lived pretty much my entire LIFE here. I'm also a black man. Who is often treated like a criminal or a second class citizen simply because of the color of my skin.

What culture do I need to learn so that I get to be treated like the white people who dont get treated like this? Please tell me?

I speak proper English in polite company (though I code switch with the best of them). I don't dress with my pants down around my legs or in the latest "hood gear" (although if how one dresses should relegate them to second class status I think furries and anyone who wears kilts should be higher up on that list).

I've worked legitimate jobs pretty consistently since I was 14 years old. I have a college degree from an accredited CUNY school here in NY. My wife and I pay our taxes on time! We had our only son, (That's right JUST ONE!) in wedlock! We live within our means. We donate to charity every year. We are avid consumers so we do our part to keep the economy going!

SO PLEASE, tell me what I have to do to stop store security from following me around in stores assuming that I'm there to steal or rob the place. Please tell me what I have to do to not have to worry about the police gunning me down in the street like an animal for "resembling" another suspect. Please tell me what else I have to stop the fact that employers are more likely to hire a white guy with a criminal record than a black man WITHOUT ONE.

Please tell me what I have to do that if I get the misfortune to show up before a judge to get either my case thrown out or get a lesser charge or sentence like my white counterparts often do.

What part of American Culture am I not doing right?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
This is a very, very sad way of discussing. Starting by saying "you gotta acknowledge collective white privilege to be accepted in this discussion", claiming this is important despite a complete absence of things we as individuals can do to correct it,

We have a very interesting public policy tool in my society. It's called an "election."

You see, unlike where you live, in my country, laws are mutable and can be changed. Periodically, there's a mass gathering where people who are interested in what the structure of the laws are get together and decide (individually) whom we wish to make laws on our behalf. If we're serious about it, we are even given the opportunity to affect whom the candidates are going to be, for example, by attending caucuses or primaries or campaigning for specific people whose probity and judgment we trust.

If enough people, for example, decided to promote effective and enforceable public policies to reduce or eliminate privilege, it would be fairly simple to do so.

I recommend it.

Of course, if you aren't given the opportunity to participate in this process, then that does put a damper on things. For example, there are a number of people -- some of them on this thread, I suspect -- who find the idea of reducing their personal privilege to be sufficiently threatening that they're willing to support fairly draconic measures to eliminate the votes of the people who might otherwise threaten their privilege. And a number of others who don't care enough about these measures to fight them.

As a lifelong citizen of the US, I find your belief that elections change anything but which rich people are in charge as truly laughable. Government action is also one of the greatest forces keeping racism alive.


Sissyl wrote:


MrTsFloatinghead: The principles of Rule of Law were in far better force some time ago, this is true. Heard of Habeas Corpus? Right of peaceful assembly?

...Droit de seigneur? Benefit of clergy? Property requirements for voting, to make sure that decisions were properly made?

Please don't kid yourself, Sissyl.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.

This is about the best argument against having this kind of discussion at all. Seriously, if treating people the same is STILL racism, it is quite simply not something that can be avoided.
Have you considered treating people the way THEY want to be treated, instead of the way YOU feel they should be treated?

Hmmm... OK. I can at least see your train of thought now.

So, next question: How do I learn how THEY want to be treated?

I mean, honestly, I'm seeing you looking at me as if I have some kind of script whenever I approach another human being.

No. I'm friendly. I talk to them. I listen to them. I wait for verbal and nonverbal cues. The one time I was criticized by someone was because, "You like too many big words."

I'm just at a loss as to what you mean by, "How THEY like to be treated."

If a woman is in a burka, I don't walk up and hug her. It's called respect. But I have no idea how she WANTS to be treated. There's no way I can. So it seems a fool's errand to say, "Until you treat everyone exactly the way THEY want, you're a racist."

I do not believe that a single soul on Earth could live up to your expectation. Ever.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.

This is about the best argument against having this kind of discussion at all. Seriously, if treating people the same is STILL racism, it is quite simply not something that can be avoided.
Have you considered treating people the way THEY want to be treated, instead of the way YOU feel they should be treated?

I want you to give me cupcakes. Why am I not getting cupcakes? Do you have something against me?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

There's a pretty good book I'd like to recommend which argues--pretty convincingly, I thought--that the present American racial caste system was intentionally designed to non-racist-ly appeal to the Rule of Law.

The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness

Good book. I liked it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Simon Legrande wrote:


As a lifelong citizen of the US, I find your belief that elections change anything but which rich people are in charge as truly laughable.

Which is why, for example, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 died in committee. As did the Equal Housing Act of 1968.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Simon Legrande wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
This is a very, very sad way of discussing. Starting by saying "you gotta acknowledge collective white privilege to be accepted in this discussion", claiming this is important despite a complete absence of things we as individuals can do to correct it,

We have a very interesting public policy tool in my society. It's called an "election."

You see, unlike where you live, in my country, laws are mutable and can be changed. Periodically, there's a mass gathering where people who are interested in what the structure of the laws are get together and decide (individually) whom we wish to make laws on our behalf. If we're serious about it, we are even given the opportunity to affect whom the candidates are going to be, for example, by attending caucuses or primaries or campaigning for specific people whose probity and judgment we trust.

If enough people, for example, decided to promote effective and enforceable public policies to reduce or eliminate privilege, it would be fairly simple to do so.

I recommend it.

Of course, if you aren't given the opportunity to participate in this process, then that does put a damper on things. For example, there are a number of people -- some of them on this thread, I suspect -- who find the idea of reducing their personal privilege to be sufficiently threatening that they're willing to support fairly draconic measures to eliminate the votes of the people who might otherwise threaten their privilege. And a number of others who don't care enough about these measures to fight them.

As a lifelong citizen of the US, I find your belief that elections change anything but which rich people are in charge as truly laughable. Government action is also one of the greatest forces keeping racism alive.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand Simon and I finally agree about something.


5 people marked this as a favorite.
ShinHakkaider wrote:

What are we talking about here? I'm an AMERICAN I was born here. I've lived pretty much my entire LIFE here. I'm also a black man. Who is often treated like a criminal or a second class citizen simply because of the color of my skin.

What culture do I need to learn so that I get to be treated like the white people who dont get treated like this? Please tell me?

I speak proper English in polite company (though I code switch with the best of them). I don't dress with my pants down around my legs or in the latest "hood gear" (although if how one dresses should relegate them to second class status I think furries and anyone who wears kilts should be higher up on that list).

I've worked legitimate jobs pretty consistently since I was 14 years old. I have a college degree from an accredited CUNY school here in NY. My wife and I pay our taxes on time! We had our only son, (That's right JUST ONE!) in wedlock! We live within our means. We donate to charity every year. We are avid consumers so we do our part to keep the economy going!

SO PLEASE, tell me what I have to do to stop store security from following me around in stores assuming that I'm there to steal or rob the place. Please tell me what I have to do to not have to worry about the police gunning me down in the street like an animal for "resembling" another suspect. Please tell me what else I have to stop the fact that employers are more likely to hire a white guy with a criminal record than a black man WITHOUT ONE.

Please tell me what I have to do that if I get the misfortune to show up before a judge to get either my case thrown out or get a lesser charge or sentence like my white counterparts often do.

What part of American Culture am I not doing right?

I'm afraid you're making exactly the point I was trying to make.

*I* don't get followed around at stores. *I* don't have the problems you do.

Why not?

Because I'm white and you're black.

That's a MAJOR issue. The security guards should be disciplined or out-and-out fired. You are suffering *because* you are being treated differently from me.

It is an inherent problem that *YOU* can do nothing about.

What can *I* do?

Unfortunately, because I am not the employer of those security guards, I can't discipline them. If you were to name the store, I'd happily boycott it on your behalf.

But *I* would treat you as another person if I were to meet you.

And I'm being told that's not enough.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
MrTsFloatinghead wrote:
Necromancer wrote:
Accusing others of sophistry while using it to try and discredit opposing viewpoints.
A) Accusations of sophistry work a lot better if you actually attempt to demonstrate (as I did) where the error in logic is, why it's in error, and trace where that error may have stemmed from.

Lunch got in the way. Fortunately, the next two hours are all mine...

MrTsFloatinghead wrote:


The push back against this seems to be something akin to the tired sophistry about how political correctness stifles thought and communication - that if we spend so much time trying to sort out what the right words are and how our cultural history might be coloring our perspectives, we end up becoming a bunch of navel-gazing solipsists who are too afraid to peer out of our critical examinations of identity for fear of being labelled "racists".

Political correctness does stifle thought and communication as pluralistic ignorance takes hold. This is when the majority of a group's members privately reject a norm while assuming their peers accept said norm. In order to avoid a negative image, those members maintain norms that they personally reject. What worsens this is when popular personalities suffer from false-consensus bias thanks to pluralistic ignorance. Some examples. Hardly sophistry.

MrTsFloatingHead wrote:


At best, the argument goes, forcing all this self examination and reflection on people is an exhausting, tedious punishment for the crime of "being white".

This is cherry picking specific responses while suffering from pluralistic ignorance.

MrTsFloatingHead wrote:
Ironically, this very argument demonstrates exactly how "being white" is privileged. People get upset at the idea of having to confront their "race" and identity before speaking, because it seems exhausting, and demeaning, and a bit like a punishment, all without realizing that often "non-white" or "non-normal" people are forced to do that exact same kind of thinking every day.

And the fallacies continue with a fallacy of relative privation. Foisting guilt is a hostile tactic and using "privilege" in such a way always comes off as a hostile intent.

MrTsFloatingHead wrote:


"Normal" people don't often have to make calculations based on the lives and experiences of other people - they don't have to think, for example, about how they will be treated when the go into a store, or get stopped by the police. They don't have to ask the question "will my <identity> be a problem here?" because they can just assume it won't - after all, that's what being "normal" means, right? Is it possibly exhausting having to think about race/class/gender all the time? Maybe. Probably. I don't really know, because I don't have to do it, because I'm a white male, and that's what white privilege means.

This supports shoving members of a race into perpetual victimhood. They have every right to expect civil treatment and when someone denies them that that person is in the wrong--not everyone who shares a single characteristic with the denier. Those who discriminate are the issue, not those aren't an immediate target. People that behave this way will attack whoever is "weaker" in their eyes.

MrTsFloatingHead wrote:
It's also important to note that being told you are wrong about how you think about race isn't automatically an attempt to "shame" or "punish" people. Nobody likes being wrong, that's true. It can certainly be embarrassing to realize that you've been mistaken about something for a long time, but it's important to realize that being told that you should "check your privilege" is ultimately not about "shaming" any more than telling a child that six times six doesn't equal sixty six is. It's about trying to educate people to see the world differently, and understand that being "normal" is itself a privilege.

Argumentum ad populum. Bandwagon appeal combined authority appeal-by-proxy. This is the paragraph falls back into pluralistic ignorance in the assumption of a norm.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Orfamay Quest wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

Again, you cannot possibly know that without having a relationship. For stranger/stranger encounters it is simply not possible.

Yeah, it's funny how you never speak to strangers.

That's just it, you speak to strangers ALL THE TIME, but you cannot possibly know "how they want to be treated" on a cultural level. If you greet every person that looks Hispanic the way you expect Hispanics like to be treated then (1) you're a racist, (2) going to get funny looks from a bunch of people, (3) going to get punched in the face by at least one dude from Tehran or Seoul.

What you can do is treat everyone with respect, and if you are asked to make a cultural consideration then you should comply. If you "default on" cultural observances based on what you "think" someone's culture is, then you are the biggest racist in this thread.


NobodysHome wrote:


I do not believe that a single soul on Earth could live up to your expectation. Ever.

And that's a perfect justification for a refusal to try. Ever.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Sissyl wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.

This is about the best argument against having this kind of discussion at all. Seriously, if treating people the same is STILL racism, it is quite simply not something that can be avoided.
Have you considered treating people the way THEY want to be treated, instead of the way YOU feel they should be treated?
I want you to give me cupcakes. Why am I not getting cupcakes? Do you have something against me?

Yes I TOTALLY have something against you.

Here's a cupcake anyway. Enjoy.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Simon Legrande wrote:


As a lifelong citizen of the US, I find your belief that elections change anything but which rich people are in charge as truly laughable.

Which is why, for example, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 died in committee. As did the Equal Housing Act of 1968.

I guess you're right, blacks are never roughed up by police officers and affirmative action isn't a thing.


Sissyl wrote:

ShinHakkaider: The discussion was far from civil. Don't pretend.

MrTsFloatinghead: The principles of Rule of Law were in far better force some time ago, this is true. Heard of Habeas Corpus? Right of peaceful assembly? The reasons for these changes are many, but a particularly egregious issue is that Equal before the law got shot down with various demands for a "level playing field". No, I don't think everything was better at some previous point in history - that doesn't change the fact that some things were. Accountability, removal of stupid rubber paragraphs and revised police guidelines should work wonders to improve race relations, wouldn't you think?

Again, when was that? I know you're not an American citizen, so perhaps you're not that familiar with the history of police and racism in the US.

We moved pretty much without transition from laws openly targetting blacks through simple racist enforcement of the law to the current day. There never was Equal before the Law and the level playing field never actually leveled it.

I have no idea what "stupid rubber paragraphs" are, but while accountability and revised police guidelines should work wonders to improve race relations, the question is how to get there, in the face of deep racial tension and prejudice. That's like saying "Everyone should treat everyone equally" and racism will go away.
It's true, but it's useless as a way of getting there.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Sissyl wrote:
Orfamay Quest wrote:


Treating everyone the same regardless of their social status is just as heinous as giving the same medical treatment to everyone regardless of their state of health.

This is about the best argument against having this kind of discussion at all. Seriously, if treating people the same is STILL racism, it is quite simply not something that can be avoided.
Have you considered treating people the way THEY want to be treated, instead of the way YOU feel they should be treated?

I think you're both wrong. You should treat other people like you want to be treated by them.


Simon Legrande wrote:


I guess you're right, blacks are never roughed up by police officers and affirmative action isn't a thing.

Affirmative action is indeed a thing -- a good thing -- created in part by changes in public policy at the national level. In 1920, about one black adult in 1000 had a college degree. By 1990, about 11 percent did, and by 1998, nearly 20 percent. Affirmative action has been one of the biggest advances in the reduction of white privilege in the United States. (See, for example, United States v. Paradise [1986]).

Blacks getting roughed up by police officers is also a thing, unfortunately. And something should definitely be done about that. By astonishing coincidence, one of the things that helps with that is reducing white privilege and allowing minorities into the ranks of the police, often in the teeth of the whites concerned about protecting their privileges. There was a rather famous court case about that.... United States v. Paradise [1986].

If you have a better way to change the culture of police departments to be more minority-friendly, you're welcome to suggest it.


Fabius Maximus wrote:


I think you're both wrong. You should treat other people like you want to be treated by them.

So in your world, a masochist should go around randomly assaulting people?


Transparency. Accountability.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
Fabius Maximus wrote:


I think you're both wrong. You should treat other people like you want to be treated by them.
So in your world, a masochist should go around randomly assaulting people?

Didn't you just make a comment about muddying waters? Maybe you should check your astounding hypocracy and try again.

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