Can we talk about that now? I've flagged a few posts for tacit endorsement of it in lieu of buying Wizard's PHB for 5th. Is it cool because it's your competitor? Because it's me and my posts get moderated for anything nearing suspicious let alone explicitly violating the community guidelines so my flags don't get taken seriously? I'm genuinely interested in knowing the reason.
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I'm willing to accept that. The others have simply been excised fast and hard often resulting in thread locks. That the ones I flagged have been around as long as they have simply seems odd. This thread is more to raise awareness than actually complain in spite of my personal gripes with the moderator decisions at times.
I believe this is discussing posts made late Friday afternoon. In that case it would have been the weekend when moderation is much, much lighter since people are out of the office.
It isn't because Paizo hates you or Wizards of the Coast.
Yay!
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Speaking as a moderator of a fairly popular forum for about 7 years, moderators DO have lives outside of their forums, and people really should cut them some slack. A better way to phrase a concern is not a blanket, "oh, do the rules not apply to violators any more???" but more a kind note directly to those concerned saying something like, "Hi, insert-name-here, I know things are busy, just wanted to make sure this didn't escape your notice, <link inserted here>; you're doing a great job, carry on."
Because moderators appreciate kind words, when the plurality of comments they usually get from the general populace is "you suck at your job" every half hour.
Holy crap, TOZ. I am shocked.
@ENHenry
I didn't criticize the moderators about their general moderation. Or, at least, I didn't intend to. There has been a blurring of what's seemingly acceptable. So, I really am curious if certain topics are more acceptable now than they have been previously.
I'm sure the moderators still have a hardline policy. This is literally the first post I've ever seen where someone suggested paizo are too lenient on this issue! Usually it's people complaining after having posts deleted just for dicusssing (ie not advocating) piracy.
I'm even more sure that they dont discount your flags on the grounds of it being you. :)
I have noticed that the 4E board, in particular, often has light moderation over the weekends. (Though that may well just be anecdote rather than evidence).
I will also add this...it really does not make sense for Pazio to 'ignore' it as piracy hurts them also as they do sell the newest edition of D&D as well.
Are they? That's news to me.
Holy crap, they are!
http://paizo.com/store/byCompany/w/wizardsOfTheCoast/byProductType/roleplay ingGames/dungeonsDragons/dndRPG2014
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only if blessed by a rabi :)
Blessing by a rabi isn't enough to make things kosher. It must follow the proper procedure, and even blessing from a rabi can't make inherently unclean things clean.
Uh, pirates swim sail but have no fins and scales. So no, they won't be kosher. Well, maybe except for a few crewmen of Dave Jones who grew both of those at the same time.
Alternatively, perhaps it's because no one in said thread ACTUALLY ADVOCATED PIRACY? Observing that something exists is not "tacit endorsement." Unless you're referring to a thread I haven't seen, of course.
And no, of course piracy isn't "kosher." With a title like that, one might think you're trying to use the mods to shut down people you disagree with.
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Piracy is absolutely not okay to endorse or participate in on paizo.com. I'm still pilfering through flagged posts this morning, but if you think we've missed something, the best way to let us know is sending the specifics over to community@paizo.com.
Alternatively, perhaps it's because no one in said thread ACTUALLY ADVOCATED PIRACY? Observing that something exists is not "tacit endorsement."
When people argue that piracy is illegal but not unethical, it's hard not to take it as tacit endorsement.
After all, what does it mean to say "there's nothing unethical about doing X" other than "there's nothing wrong with doing X"? Ethics/morality is all about what we should and shouldn't do.
The difference between saying "there's nothing unethical about doing X" and "there's nothing wrong with doing X" is, and this can't come as a surprise to you, Steve, that since X is illegal, it is by some definition wrong, even though it is not obviously unethical". Which is, you know... EXACTLY bugleyman's point.
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Piracy is absolutely not okay to endorse or participate in on paizo.com. I'm still pilfering through flagged posts this morning, but if you think we've missed something, the best way to let us know is sending the specifics over to community@paizo.com.
Wait, what? Theft is now endorsed by Paizo?!?
Sorry, I just couldn't resist the opportunity to parody.
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D'oh. Morning circuits/new OS autocorrect got all crossed >_<
Alternatively, perhaps it's because no one in said thread ACTUALLY ADVOCATED PIRACY? Observing that something exists is not "tacit endorsement." Unless you're referring to a thread I haven't seen, of course.
And no, of course piracy isn't "kosher." With a title like that, one might think you're trying to use the mods to shut down people you disagree with.
Sure, they did. It's just a form of advertisement, right? Aren't advertisements good? Aren't they wanted? Let's 'advertise.' That is a tacit endorsement.
The difference between saying "there's nothing unethical about doing X" and "there's nothing wrong with doing X" is, and this can't come as a surprise to you, Steve, that since X is illegal, it is by some definition wrong, even though it is not obviously unethical". Which is, you know... EXACTLY bugleyman's point.
It may well be (in which case I disagree with him). I don't think it makes sense to say there's something wrong with doing something which isn't unethical.
However, that wasn't my point anyhow (whether it can come as a surprise to you or not). Claiming something isn't unethical is providing tacit endorsement for it.
Steve:
I never said piracy was not unethical. At no point did I advocate, endorse, or defend piracy.
I said that simply because something is illegal we may not conclude it is necessarily unethical. Which, by the way, is empirically correct.
My entire issue with WotC stems from their failure to sell PDFs. If I believed piracy were ethical, why would I care?
I know. You've always been clear you're not advocating piracy - I pretty much agree with your position in that thread (not quite to the same extent, but pretty much).
I was commenting on your claim in this thread that nobody has advocated piracy or tacitly endorsed it. I don't think that held once the argument of ethics vs legality was introduced (not by you).
Sorry for not being clearer. I wasn't challenging your integrity.
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I know. You've always been clear you're not advocating piracy - I pretty much agree with your position in that thread (not quite to the same extent, but pretty much).
I was commenting on your claim that nobody has advocated piracy or tacitly endorsed it. I don't think that held once the argument of ethics vs legality was introduced (not by you).
Ah; then please accept my apology. The whole thing has left a bad taste in my mouth and I appear to have assumed the worst.
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My fault. I wasn't particularly careful.
Chief Technical Officer
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Our Community Guidelines did recently change, but they do say this:
Illegal Activity
Do not advocate or disclose intent to commit illegal activities on paizo.com. This includes (but is not limited to) posts that encourage fraud, piracy, or violence.
Our Community Guidelines did recently change, but they do say this:
Illegal Activity
Do not advocate or disclose intent to commit illegal activities on paizo.com. This includes (but is not limited to) posts that encourage fraud, piracy, or violence.
Here's the thing: At no point did I advocate, or disclose intent to commit, piracy. Yet my posts were still removed. So while I now know to avoid the topic entirely, it might save time in the future if that policy were explicitly stated.
Customer Service Dire Care Bear Manager
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I can't speak for specific removals, I haven't gone back and checked the why's, but a reason some posts discussing piracy are removed isn't because they endorse it, but because they discuss mechanisms or hints on where or how to download it. In most subjects that tend to see frequent or heavy-handed moderation, there are times when the lines on what to remove or leave standing are a bit blurry; made more difficult by moderation not being a precise science to begin with.
And, like all moderated threads, sometimes posts get removed because they are caught in the crosshairs of an overall issue, (replying to posts that are already removed, or part of a discussion that is a derail, etc).
Here's the thing: At no point did I advocate, or disclose intent to commit, piracy. Yet my posts were still removed. So while I now know to avoid the topic entirely, it might save time in the future if that policy were explicitly stated.Our Community Guidelines did recently change, but they do say this:
Illegal Activity
Do not advocate or disclose intent to commit illegal activities on paizo.com. This includes (but is not limited to) posts that encourage fraud, piracy, or violence.
These posts were removed because the piracy discussion was veering the thread fairly off course, and probably belonged in a different thread, which was indicated in the post removal notification.
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Our Community Guidelines did recently change, but they do say this:
Illegal Activity
Do not advocate or disclose intent to commit illegal activities on paizo.com. This includes (but is not limited to) posts that encourage fraud, piracy, or violence.
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Wait, what?Our Community Guidelines did recently change, but they do say this:
Illegal Activity
Do not advocate or disclose intent to commit illegal activities on paizo.com. This includes (but is not limited to) posts that encourage fraud, piracy, or violence.
How will we advocate goblin kobold orc genocide without encouraging violence?!
I can't speak for specific removals, I haven't gone back and checked the why's, but a reason some posts discussing piracy are removed isn't because they endorse it, but because they discuss mechanisms or hints on where or how to download it.
I learnt how to engage in PDF-piracy from posts on the messageboard before they were deleted. I wouldnt have known how to even get started but for the post in question (by a poster who was staunchly anti-piracy). He got annoyed when his post was deleted as he took it as a slur or a mischaracterisation of his position, but personally I think the "take it elsewhere" stance is a good one, in this instance.
Granted, the class of people as ignorant as me about using the internet is pretty small, but it's nonetheless true that some anti-piracy posts can also have the effect of enabling piracy, to some extent.
I can't speak for specific removals, I haven't gone back and checked the why's, but a reason some posts discussing piracy are removed isn't because they endorse it, but because they discuss mechanisms or hints on where or how to download it.I learnt how to engage in PDF-piracy from posts on the messageboard before they were deleted. I wouldnt have known how to even get started but for the post in question (by a poster who was staunchly anti-piracy). He got annoyed when his post was deleted as he took it as a slur or a mischaracterisation of his position, but personally I think the "take it elsewhere" stance is a good one, in this instance.
Granted, the class of people as ignorant as me about using the internet is pretty small, but it's nonetheless true that some anti-piracy posts can also have the effect of enabling piracy, to some extent.
:-/ The process isn't vastly different from using google. Anyone with a notion to do it didn't get pushed over the edge by the "education" they got from an anti-piracy post.
Perhaps not, but I had no idea it was even possible until I heard a rather detailed account of the process by someone telling another poster not to.
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Kosher pirates?
That brings up a funny mental image. Though I think I have a new character idea for Skull & Shackles. :p
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Kosher pirates?
That brings up a funny mental image. Though I think I have a new character idea for Skull & Shackles. :p
Hmm... What's in this grog, exactly?
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Hmm... What's in this grog, exactly?Kosher pirates?
That brings up a funny mental image. Though I think I have a new character idea for Skull & Shackles. :p
Remember that insects (with a very few exceptions, I am looking at you locust) are not kosher - if you don't clean your sugar cane carefully, it might be contaminated by whatever insects live on sugar cane, contaminating the rum and then contaminating the grog making it impure.
Remember, always clean your sugar cane...
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Kosher pirates?
That brings up a funny mental image. Though I think I have a new character idea for Skull & Shackles. :p
A very tasty character who is also blessed as clean? Sounds legit.
Sure, they did. It's just a form of advertisement, right? Aren't advertisements good? Aren't they wanted? Let's 'advertise.' That is a tacit endorsement.Alternatively, perhaps it's because no one in said thread ACTUALLY ADVOCATED PIRACY? Observing that something exists is not "tacit endorsement." Unless you're referring to a thread I haven't seen, of course.
And no, of course piracy isn't "kosher." With a title like that, one might think you're trying to use the mods to shut down people you disagree with.
That post was the one that came closest to advocating piracy, and it was a country mile ahead of even my closest statement.
While the way poster phrased his post badly, the core of his argument was valid point, which was not, in point of fact, advocating piracy.
That fact is that, is that their is reason to believe that piracy can drive sales. Which is a point of relevance, when a discussion has turned in part to whether a companies choices regarding digital distribution are sensible or not.
Discussing the nature of piracy(its effects on industry, how industry can deal with it, what constitutes a lost sale, ect.), is not advocating it.
You would be well advised to see what Advocating piracy actually looks like, so that you know the difference. I would suggest reading "steal this article" by Charles Davis, after which you might be better equipped to differentiate.
These posts were removed because the piracy discussion was veering the thread fairly off course, and probably belonged in a different thread, which was indicated in the post removal notification.Here's the thing: At no point did I advocate, or disclose intent to commit, piracy. Yet my posts were still removed. So while I now know to avoid the topic entirely, it might save time in the future if that policy were explicitly stated.Our Community Guidelines did recently change, but they do say this:
Illegal Activity
Do not advocate or disclose intent to commit illegal activities on paizo.com. This includes (but is not limited to) posts that encourage fraud, piracy, or violence.
While I am personally in favor of organic thread development, and believe that discussion should be allowed to grow and shift(in fact the most interesting threads often develop out of this, in my opinion) I do understand that paizo mod team has a lower tolerance for it.
Glad to hear you took the knife to the thread for the right reason.
Steve:
I never said piracy was not unethical. At no point did I advocate, endorse, or defend piracy.
While discussing the intricacies of piracy as an ethical dilemma, specifically regarding the idea that it is theft, I did poss the idea that lending and borrowing are as ethically unsound and that it was dangerous to refer to piracy as theft, lest we all be consider thieves. Because that is where the logic(in the absence of other factors) leads us.
I did also point out, under a rather specific and arcane circumstance, that just because something is unlawful, does not mean that it is unjust.
Neither of these is to say that Piracy is ethical, or even 'not unethical'
Even if it where, it would still not be advocacy for piracy, because Piracy is against the law, and laws should be followed in all but the most extreme cases. There are also really good practical reasons NOT to engage in piracy, from legal repercussions through to virus threat.
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Hmm... What's in this grog, exactly?Kosher pirates?
That brings up a funny mental image. Though I think I have a new character idea for Skull & Shackles. :p
Remember that insects (with a very few exceptions, I am looking at you locust) are not kosher - if you don't clean your sugar cane carefully, it might be contaminated by whatever insects live on sugar cane, contaminating the rum and then contaminating the grog making it impure.
Remember, always clean your sugar cane...
Casting Purify food and drink is enough to make it kosher?
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Casting Purify food and drink is enough to make it kosher?
I wouldn't think so. Process is extremely important. Taking something processed in a non-kosher manner and using magic to purify it doesn't change the process involved.
Now, purifying the food/drink could be an important part of the process...
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What kind of pirate are we talking here? Johnny Depp pirate, or Cartman pirate?
Captain James Hook pirate.