spiritual weapon spell and "buffs" on priest casting it

[Tommaso Gollini]

a quick question
if i have say a cleric/inquisitor of the right level, can i cast

- prayer
then
- wrath
then
- spiritual weapon

and use the buffs provided on my BAB to the spiritual weapon attacks ?
that is, do the spiritual weapon gets only my BAB or if it get buffed, can it receive the buffs i receive ?
(that's also for other buffs present at the moment of the casting, like the bard song and similar ?)

i rather say no, but i am not convinced
any ruling on this ?
thanks

[Tommaso Gollini]

any suggestion ?

[Zathyr]

I would say ... maybe. Probably yes.

This FAQ entry shows that at least Prayer can potentially work on it.

Spoiler:

Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?

Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)

For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.

The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.

Wrath is a little more iffy. The question essentially is on the nature of Spiritual Weapon - should it be treated like a separate creature or as an extension of the caster?

As it's an evocation effect rather than conjuration I lean toward the "extension of the caster" line of thinking. However, it can be its own target for certain spells or effects that can destroy it, which suggests that maybe it should be considered a separate target for buffs. But the description doesn't specifically say anything to that extent, and if there are other specific rulings that come into play here I don't know of them.

So personally I lean towards my default - that spells are something the caster is doing. The weapon is attacking on its own, but the caster is directing it sufficiently that it gets the bonuses. That's how I would rule it.

[Tommaso Gollini]

thanks for your input

[Tommaso Gollini]

So with no other input, i take that any buff (with the usual rules) that can apply to the priest (caster) using spiritual weapon can be used to enhance the attack and damage bonus of the spiritual weapon itself.
thanks zathyr

[LazarX]

Tommaso Gollini wrote:

a quick question

if i have say a cleric/inquisitor of the right level, can i cast

- prayer
then
- wrath
then
- spiritual weapon

and use the buffs provided on my BAB to the spiritual weapon attacks ?
that is, do the spiritual weapon gets only my BAB or if it get buffed, can it receive the buffs i receive ?
(that's also for other buffs present at the moment of the casting, like the bard song and similar ?)

i rather say no, but i am not convinced
any ruling on this ?
thanks

The ruling is the text of the spell itself. The BAB for Spiritual Weapon is your Caster level, The plus to hit on that is based on your Wisdom bonus. (yes, even for Oracles, too..) The only way to buff your BAB is to buff your caster level. The only other way to increase your bonus to hit is to boost Wisdom.

[Tommaso Gollini]

in this reading the spell is totally un useful
rather than have it memorized there are scores of more useful spells
if it at least could have been used to flank, but since it cant.. who can waste a slot for this ?

[LazarX]

Tommaso Gollini wrote:

in this reading the spell is totally un useful

rather than have it memorized there are scores of more useful spells
if it at least could have been used to flank, but since it cant.. who can waste a slot for this ?

1. It's a force effect. keep that in mind.

2. It's melee at range, the cleric can engage an enemy without closing.

3. It's fire and forget damage.... the cleric and do other things after launching it at her target the first round.

4. It's more likely to hit than the cleric's standard melee, assuming they don't have a powerful magic weapon on hand.

[Zathyr]

LazarX wrote:

The ruling is the text of the spell itself. The BAB for Spiritual Weapon is your Caster level, The plus to hit on that is based on your Wisdom bonus. (yes, even for Oracles, too..) The only way to buff your BAB is to buff your caster level. The only other way to increase your bonus to hit is to boost Wisdom.

You may want to read the FAQ entry I referenced earlier. The text of it is in that spoiler tag, and the relevant section specifically mentioning the spiritual weapon spell is bolded. Spiritual Weapon is affected by effects that affect weapon attacks.

[Illeist]

LazarX wrote:

The ruling is the text of the spell itself. The BAB for Spiritual Weapon is your Caster level, The plus to hit on that is based on your Wisdom bonus. (yes, even for Oracles, too..) The only way to buff your BAB is to buff your caster level. The only other way to increase your bonus to hit is to boost Wisdom.

Spiritual weapon has to establish a method for calculating its attack bonus; otherwise, it's a completely useless spell. The fact that it provides a method for determining its bonus to hit does not mean that it cannot receive any further bonuses. If it does, then no one can.

Core Rulebook, page 179 wrote:

Your attack bonus with a melee weapon is the following: Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier

[Darksol the Painbringer]

I would say it does not work. Here's why:

Spiritual Weapon is a force effect; even if it's a weapon-like spell, it's still otherwise an object, not a creature, much less an ally, ruling Prayer out. If you want that kind of spell to receive those benefits, you should cast this one.

Prayer works for allies and enemies. A Spiritual Weapon is not a creature, whereas a Spiritual Ally is.

As for Wrath, it's a personal spell. Unless you and the Spiritual Ally have the Share Spells teamwork feat line, it's not gonna be affected by it, and since Spiritual Ally does not have feats...

As others have said, it's a fire and forget sort of spell; you cast it on somebody (probably the BBEG) and then redirect your efforts elsewhere.

[Tommaso Gollini]

spiritual ally is a 4th level spell, where spiritual weapon is a 2nd.
i can see there are 2 schools of thought in play here.

the "SW" isnt affected from any kind of buff (spells and others like bard song etc)
the "sw" has to be affected from something (prayer, else..)

i understand that buffing the spell basically gives the priest
1) a powerful melee weapon without the need to be in CC
2) the chance to do damage being free to do else
so basically being 2 "units" with 1 spell

but for example the summoner does the same thing with his eidolon (yes, its' spells are less useful on average than the cleric ones, but anyway..)

[Rikkan]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Spiritual Weapon is a force effect; even if it's a weapon-like spell, it's still otherwise an object, not a creature, much less an ally, ruling Prayer out.

Well if, according to the FAQ, inspire courage (which also targets allies) does work on the spiritual weapon, I don't see any reason why prayer would not.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Rikkan wrote:

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

Spiritual Weapon is a force effect; even if it's a weapon-like spell, it's still otherwise an object, not a creature, much less an ally, ruling Prayer out.

Well if, according to the FAQ, inspire courage (which also targets allies) does work on the spiritual weapon, I don't see any reason why prayer would not.

I re-read everything, and I suppose it can work; it requires quite a bit of a legalese reading to get to that interpretation though, so some clean-up would be needed.

[Tommaso Gollini]

i agree darksol :)
that's why i asked this at start

[wraithstrike]

It is a spell affect which only benefits from certain things. The caster is not actually making the attack, so buffing him won't help unless he is buffed in very specific ways. As for the spell being useless, it is not bad at low levels. At higher levels it will taper off, but it is only a 2nd level spell.

[Tommaso Gollini]

so for you wich "specific buff" can affect it ?