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As the title says, has anyone run this adventure more or less as written, without nerving the players, loot or the encounters in a significant way?
I am sorry if this sounds inflammatory, but at this point I am a bit depressed about the situation, it seems like each week, that players come here and ask "Can I run this?", "Is it really that bad", "I like the subject, but will I regret using the mythic rules?".
Some time ago, I could still muster a "yeah, you will have much work to do, but your players will love the their mythic toys, here is a short list of changes to help you".
But at this point - and I am honest Because mythic really troubles me - the best I can muster is, "Wait they might fix it at some point, or if you are willing to invest the time here are various links with suggestions, but it will still be a lot of work. Do not run as written, it is like a broken pencil - pointless."
(Btw, I think we gave Mr Jacobs enough trouble when it comes to the RPG, and it seams understandable, that with the realities of publishing, that things like this can happen)
And a second question: Is it reasonable to ask for any kind of offical nerv, suggested changes for the campaign, when it comes to the options available to PCs?
Changing a lot of the encounters in the AP and the various bestiaries seems like a vastly bigger amount of work.
Frankly I would love to have a "working" set of the mythic rules, since I am very much a fan of the implementation (tiers that can be added any time, rather than epic levels) and would love to embrace adding mythic tiers instead of levels in certain situations (some scenarios just work better without access to certain spells and abilities).
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I have a party of 4, 15-point buy, that I'm running through this. The only substantial modifications I have made was to reduce some of the mass combat because it is boooring.
They killed Soltengrebbe last night, but only the tanks emergency heal from the campaign trait saved him. I actually took it a little easy on him by having Soltengrebbe split his attacks when Aron ran up on the other side of him, otherwise the paladin tank would have been paved the next round.
I realize this is still pretty early in the AP though, they just hit second mythic tier, so probably not a great data point for your question.
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Same. 4 players, 15 point buy. I haven't changed much, except for tweaking S. Vhane's stats. Additionally, where the AP as written suggests things, I allow them to happen, including Vhane's resurrection via oil of life (and future graveknight status), having Kiranda-as-Maranse aid the party, Aron Kir's addiction and disappearance, etc. I also tweaked the Eustoyriax fight a bit.
We just started Book 3, so again, not yet the best data point. The party includes:
Xemna, tiefling paladin/champion, going for full Divine Source.
Raziel, aasimar inquisitor/hierophant, focused on Channel Smite.
Annabeth, half-elf ranger/marshal, looking for a unicorn mount.
Ty-ryl, duergar/elf* bloodrager/trickster. Will not use armor*.
There's also a couple of cohorts: Helkrix, a tiefling rogue redeemed into paladinhood, and Lesit, a priestess of Baphomet who was cursed by Tabris* and converted to Desna.
*Long story. Go ahead and ask if curious.
So they're not exactly optimized. Plus, no full caster. I've read all the threads here, and I'm monitoring things as they develop.
I'm sure you could easily run this as-written if you just don't give the players Mythic tiers.
And this would be as-written, because there are rules for running non-Mythic characters through this. ;)
Tier three (i.e. the start of book three) is when things get really out of whack.
I know you already know this, but I've run as-written and am now at Part 3 of Book 3. (4 15-point PCs.)
The only "broken" bits to this point were the dungeons under Drezen (hopelessly under-CR'ed monsters) and the woundwyrm.
On the other hand, the fighter took Foe-Biter for his weapon, then realized how broken it is and hasn't used it once. No one took Fleet Charge. The PCs are intentionally toning themselves down for me.
I'm reporting in the "Failed AP" thread as I find things...
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Thanks everybody, from what I could gather, 15 point buy seems to be vital. The problems with mythic seems to be multiplicative in nature, higher point buy (I used 20 with no stats under 10) and proper powergaming seem to make it exponentially worse.
I agree that the problems only really start once the players accumulate tiers - even if I have to mention that mythic power attack can create nasty damage spikes.
I am looking forward to reading more once those games have reached books 4 and 5.
The difference between 15 and 20 point buy remains marginal and is mostly a beneficial factor in the 20 point buy department towards taking the more MAD classes, IMO. Having a natural 18 still cripples the character in about every other stat and if you don't prevent your players from min-maxing their initial stats, a 15 point buy does not much to prevent that situation, either.
Thanks everybody, from what I could gather, 15 point buy seems to be vital. The problems with mythic seems to be multiplicative in nature, higher point buy (I used 20 with no stats under 10) and proper powergaming seem to make it exponentially worse.
I agree that the problems only really start once the players accumulate tiers - even if I have to mention that mythic power attack can create nasty damage spikes.I am looking forward to reading more once those games have reached books 4 and 5.
That's the problem with the game at the moment. I have never quite understood why one of the guiding mantras of game development is not "What would a power gamer do with this ability?" If they asked themselves that more often while designing rules, this kind of whacky stuff wouldn't happen. It would make life easier on DMs everywhere, which would increase the number of people playing the game.
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That's the problem with the game at the moment. I have never quite understood why one of the guiding mantras of game development is not "What would a power gamer do with this ability?" If they asked themselves that more often while designing rules, this kind of whacky stuff wouldn't happen. It would make life easier on DMs everywhere, which would increase the number of people playing the game.
At some level, I'm sure they do. It's an important consideration as a designer how to discourage people from ruining their own fun.
But powergaming is a tool that can be used towards several ends.
- Does your party want to trivialize combats to get to the story faster?
- Do they want to play the AP on easy mode?
- Is it that they want more powers to make the game more tactically interesting?
- Has it just become an arms race between the PCs for who's getting the spotlight?
- Do their character concepts require they start more competent than the average first level character?
- Do the players want to compete among themselves?
- Does a suboptimal build for the campaign need a bump?
Maybe you don't need any of those things. But it's still handy to have a range of tools in case they come up.
Cheers!
Landon
Here's one other thing to consider: How many players does a group have?
I get the feeling that while many APs are balanced on the knife's edge at higher levels in terms of lethality and challenge on one side and too easy on the other side, that WotR is on a monomolecular edge for this.
Including just one additional player can overbalance things - Paizo usually considers that fifth player to be acceptable, but certain Paizo employees beg to differ. In WotR, that fifth, be it a cohort or NPC or actual player, is one bridge too far and things have to be rebalanced constantly. And simply maximizing hit points no longer addresses that problem.
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That's the problem with the game at the moment. I have never quite understood why one of the guiding mantras of game development is not "What would a power gamer do with this ability?" If they asked themselves that more often while designing rules, this kind of whacky stuff wouldn't happen. It would make life easier on DMs everywhere, which would increase the number of people playing the game.Thanks everybody, from what I could gather, 15 point buy seems to be vital. The problems with mythic seems to be multiplicative in nature, higher point buy (I used 20 with no stats under 10) and proper powergaming seem to make it exponentially worse.
I agree that the problems only really start once the players accumulate tiers - even if I have to mention that mythic power attack can create nasty damage spikes.I am looking forward to reading more once those games have reached books 4 and 5.
Not really the problem here, unfortunately improved critical and power attack are pretty much expected feats for CRB Fighters, taking their mythic versions seems reasonable even for the most baseline build expectation.
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That's the problem with the game at the moment. I have never quite understood why one of the guiding mantras of game development is not "What would a power gamer do with this ability?" If they asked themselves that more often while designing rules, this kind of whacky stuff wouldn't happen. It would make life easier on DMs everywhere, which would increase the number of people playing the game.At some level, I'm sure they do. It's an important consideration as a designer how to discourage people from ruining their own fun.
But powergaming is a tool that can be used towards several ends.
- Does your party want to trivialize combats to get to the story faster?
- Do they want to play the AP on easy mode?
- Is it that they want more powers to make the game more tactically interesting?
- Has it just become an arms race between the PCs for who's getting the spotlight?
- Do their character concepts require they start more competent than the average first level character?
- Do the players want to compete among themselves?
- Does a suboptimal build for the campaign need a bump?
Maybe you don't need any of those things. But it's still handy to have a range of tools in case they come up.
Cheers!
Landon
You have made plenty of good points, but I fear that the marginalization of some characters is a really bad thing. If the players with the high Initiative routinely ends the combat before others even get to act, that's usually problem.
I can't speak for others, but it would bother me to no end if combat were a cake walk.
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You have made plenty of good points, but I fear that the marginalization of some characters is a really bad thing. If the players with the high Initiative routinely ends the combat before others even get to act, that's usually problem.
I can't speak for others, but it would bother me to no end if combat were a cake walk.
Oh, absolutely. My group wouldn't want that either, so they don't play characters like that.
But for a group that wants to skip combat to get to "the good parts," not getting through a full round is awesome :)
Cheers!
Landon
Not really the problem here, unfortunately improved critical and power attack are pretty much expected feats for CRB Fighters, taking their mythic versions seems reasonable even for the most baseline build expectation.That's the problem with the game at the moment. I have never quite understood why one of the guiding mantras of game development is not "What would a power gamer do with this ability?" If they asked themselves that more often while designing rules, this kind of whacky stuff wouldn't happen. It would make life easier on DMs everywhere, which would increase the number of people playing the game.Thanks everybody, from what I could gather, 15 point buy seems to be vital. The problems with mythic seems to be multiplicative in nature, higher point buy (I used 20 with no stats under 10) and proper powergaming seem to make it exponentially worse.
I agree that the problems only really start once the players accumulate tiers - even if I have to mention that mythic power attack can create nasty damage spikes.I am looking forward to reading more once those games have reached books 4 and 5.
Mythic Power Attack and Mythic Improved Critical don't bother me. Those feats are easy to handle.
Mythic Combat Reflexes with Come and Get Me bothers me. Augmented flesh to stone bothers me. Foebiter combined with feats like Mythic Power Attack and Mythic Vital Strike bother me. Combining Smite Evil with all those of feats and Foebiter bothers me.
Many classes have inherent weaknesses. The fighter doing truck tons of damage isn't a problem. He has weak reflex and will saves. Thus you can provide a challenge for him by hitting his will save. You can't do that with a paladin and it is hard to do with a Superstition barbarian.
It's when they put in spells and abilities that used in conjunction with other ones that they somehow don't see that bothers me. Ones they should have never put in the game in the first place, Come and Get Me and Greater Beast Totem with iterative attacks being a major one for martials. Dazing Spell and no save enervate/energy drain/prediction of failure being another. How do they not see these combinations as far exceeding what every other martial can do?
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Come and get me can be countered by ranged attacks (that +4 to hit and damage helps), it only becomes available at level 12 and the barbarian might eat a lot of damage. It is good, but still reasonable, enemies with reach and vital strike are an effective counter to this.
You can daze creatures with the power of your spells.
Benefit: You can modify a spell to daze a creature damaged by the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect. If the spell effect also causes the creature to become dazed, the duration of this metamagic effect is added to the duration of the spell.
Level Increase: +3 (a dazing spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not inflict damage do not benefit from this feat.
Dazing spell does nothing with enervate and energy drain since those spells do not cause damage. I could see reasonable use with something like scorching ray, but even then the DC seems reasonable.
I generally find, that most things can be reasonably inconvenienced with rays.
Come and get me can be countered by ranged attacks (that +4 to hit and damage helps), it only becomes available at level 12 and the barbarian might eat a lot of damage. It is good, but still reasonable, enemies with reach and vital strike are an effective counter to this.
What about Greater Beast Totem? Doesn't your Come and Get Me barbarian charge the ranged attacker and pounce on him? If the ranged striker attempts to five foot move out, the barbarian usually has an enlarge magic item or Step Up to keep in their range.
The ranged attackers have to deal with the Invulnerable Rager DR #/- and a huge hit point pool. Once the barbarian hits them with a pounce, they're usually dead or nearly so.
You also can't put quality ranged strikers into every encounter. What do you do most of the time after that? Attempt to use reach while he uses Step Up or is enlarged. Even gargantuan creatures can't move more than 5 feet and get their attacks. If they move back more than 5 feet and take their attacks, he pounces. So they end up getting one attack and one AoO, he gets four or five attacks that usually do more damage. Sometimes a Vital Strike dragon or similar large creature can match them for damage. But not much else and even then the DR and huge hit point pool saves him.
They just put Greater Elemental Blood series of feats in that gives a barbarian undispellable fly so he can charge over difficult terrain and flying targets at high level.
The barbarian player usually builds around Come and Get Me. When a player builds around that ability, it's very hard to counter.
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Come and get me can be countered by ranged attacks (that +4 to hit and damage helps), it only becomes available at level 12 and the barbarian might eat a lot of damage. It is good, but still reasonable, enemies with reach and vital strike are an effective counter to this.What about Greater Beast Totem? Doesn't your Come and Get Me barbarian charge the ranged attacker and pounce on him? If the ranged striker attempts to five foot move out, the barbarian usually has an enlarge magic item or Step Up to keep in their range.
The ranged attackers have to deal with the Invulnerable Rager DR #/- and a huge hit point pool. Once the barbarian hits them with a pounce, they're usually dead or nearly so.
You also can't put quality ranged strikers into every encounter. What do you do most of the time after that? Attempt to use reach while he uses Step Up or is enlarged. Even gargantuan creatures can't move more than 5 feet and get their attacks. If they move back more than 5 feet and take their attacks, he pounces. So they end up getting one attack and one AoO, he gets four or five attacks that usually do more damage. Sometimes a Vital Strike dragon or similar large creature can match them for damage. But not much else and even then the DR and huge hit point pool saves him.
They just put Greater Elemental Blood series of feats in that gives a barbarian undispellable fly so he can charge over difficult terrain and flying targets at high level.
The barbarian player usually builds around Come and Get Me. When a player builds around that ability, it's very hard to counter.
Not arguing that this isn't a very good combo and that your barbarian players doesn't know what he is doing^^.
So what would work:
Grappling could help (don't know the weapon) if the target survives the AOO.
I am not 100% sure, but sunder, steal and disarm might not provoke an attack of opportunity, but taking his weapon away should help.
Full Defense or fighting defensively with combat expertise, just fight very defensively until he ends his rage. Avoid him with superior speed and things like teleportation, waiting and kiting you until your short term buffs/rage/bane have run out, could be a very effective tactic for mobile enemies like demons.
Domination and confusion effects are always "fun" against barbarians, and if he isn't immune once he can afford the wayfinder+ion stone combo, he and his party have failed. ^^
Touch of Fatigue could work, if not for the fortitude save, fortunately Waves of fatigue does not offer a save, and if the barbarian can't rage...
Giving the enemies mirror image should prevent quite a number of AOOs^^
Aoe effects should work quite well against such a creature, dragons and similar monsters should work well here.
Of course just pit him against another barbarian with come and get me if everything fails.
My group is 5 players instead of 4, with a varying degree of system mastery. 2 are very optimized, one is so-so, one it a very poor optimizer and the 5th is new to pathfinder. I run most encounters as written, with a small bump in level for most mooks. But I am also slowing player progression. They just finished book 3 and are only tier 4 and level 11. This really helps to fix many of the problems with the encounters and since the players don't know when they're "supposed" to level/tier, it doesn't really cause any problems for me as a GM
Grappling could help (don't know the weapon) if the target survives the AOO.
You know how grappling, Sebastian. Defeated by freedom of movement and every optimized martial gets a ring as soon as he can.
I am not 100% sure, but sunder, steal and disarm might not provoke an attack of opportunity, but taking his weapon away should help.
Disarm and steal can work. He does have claws. So not completely disarmed, but definitely better. Sunder has problems because of the equal or better enhancement bonus. I do throw it in sometimes.
Full Defense or fighting defensively with combat expertise, just fight very defensively until he ends his rage. Avoid him with superior speed and things like teleportation, waiting and kiting you until your short term buffs/rage/bane have run out, could be a very effective tactic for mobile enemies like demons.
A pure AC build would cause him problems, but would be slow killing him if it could at all with a party backing him up. I tried this. The mage ended up killing the AC build character. It was fairly effective as far as avoiding a bunch of his attacks. When he did get lucky and hit, he took a huge chunk of her hit points. It took her quite a few hits to match one of his.
Domination and confusion effects are always "fun" against barbarians, and if he isn't immune once he can afford the wayfinder+ion stone combo, he and his party have failed. ^^
While not raging this is possible. His Will save is over 30 when raging with Superstition. A simple protection from evil can prevent control as a pre-buff.
Touch of Fatigue could work, if not for the fortitude save, fortunately Waves of fatigue does not offer a save, and if the barbarian can't rage...
Fatigue does work at lower levels. I do use it. I generally allow a hero point to be spent to rage while fatigued. He also bought the human trait that allows him to throw off fatigue once a day. Exhaustion hammers pretty good at higher level too. I do hit him with that on occasion. That at least makes him work a bit for his kills.
Giving the enemies mirror image should prevent quite a number of AOOs^^
He carves through a mirror image in a round at higher level or closes his eyes to get a 50% miss chance rather than the images.
Aoe effects should work quite well against such a creature, dragons and similar monsters should work well here.
Reflex save is also close to 30 with Superstitious. He managed to get a ring of evasion last time. He took less from AoE than the rogue.
Of course just pit him against another barbarian with come and get me if everything fails.
Did this. Fun to watch, except figuring out who resolves their AoOs first. Had to write a house rule for this one because it got so stupid.
I also use the cruel quickened dispel magic death ward strip followed by energy drain. Or the Thanatopic metamagic feats. That usually hammers pretty good. I don't like to use that option too often because it's mean and shouldn't be an option the enemy can often call upon. Polar Ray can hurt a bit as well if you get a few off on him. Maze hammers well. It's mean to allow a caster to hammer a martial all the time given their unfair advantage. I try not to do it too often.
The only real physical challenge for a Come and Get Me barbarian is another barbarian. Then it comes down to lucky damage rolls and who is more badass at taking a beating.
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Grappling could help (don't know the weapon) if the target survives the AOO.You know how grappling, Sebastian. Defeated by freedom of movement and every optimized martial gets a ring as soon as he can.
I am not 100% sure, but sunder, steal and disarm might not provoke an attack of opportunity, but taking his weapon away should help.Disarm and steal can work. He does have claws. So not completely disarmed, but definitely better. Sunder has problems because of the equal or better enhancement bonus. I do throw it in sometimes.
Full Defense or fighting defensively with combat expertise, just fight very defensively until he ends his rage. Avoid him with superior speed and things like teleportation, waiting and kiting you until your short term buffs/rage/bane have run out, could be a very effective tactic for mobile enemies like demons.A pure AC build would cause him problems, but would be slow killing him if it could at all with a party backing him up. I tried this. The mage ended up killing the AC build character. It was fairly effective as far as avoiding a bunch of his attacks. When he did get lucky and hit, he took a huge chunk of her hit points. It took her quite a few hits to match one of his.
Domination and confusion effects are always "fun" against barbarians, and if he isn't immune once he can afford the wayfinder+ion stone combo, he and his party have failed. ^^While not raging this is possible. His Will save is over 30 when raging with Superstition. A simple protection from evil can prevent control as a pre-buff.
Touch of Fatigue could work, if not for the fortitude save, fortunately Waves of fatigue does not offer a save, and if the barbarian can't rage...Fatigue does work at lower levels. I do use it. I generally allow a hero point to be spent to rage while fatigued. He also bought the human trait that allows him to throw off fatigue once a day. Exhaustion hammers pretty good at...
Sorry to late for to to answer well formatted:
-Freedom of Movement, can be dispelled and that ring isn't cheap, but yeah.
-The equal or higher enhancement bonus rule was a holdover from 3.5, it has since then been quietly removed from the CRB. It is gone^^
-Protection from evil and similar spells do not protect from confusion. ^^
-Please do not use hero points with mythic, it really isn't required, PCs are supposed to use their surges to help with saving throws from time to time.
-Mirror immage is a good start, you could always buff the tough unarmed enemies (like large demons) with mage armor, blur and blink are a cheap option too.
- As mentioned spells with a number of ranged attacks like fiery shuriken are great (+4 damage and + 4 to attack roll) to expand on the idea, abuse telekinesis, just drop a couple of greatswords and fling them at the barbarian, plenty of demons have it a a SLA.
-Plane shift him, even with superstition his will save will not be that good, maybe a dick move, but at that levels your players should be able to cope.
- Channel energy should have a decent chance to affect him, but his hit points might soak it - it bears mentioning, that healing the barbarian might be a bit tough, since even the healing spells suffer from superstition.
-Enemies can enlarge too, and use reach weapons.
-Witches, evil eye (even with a sucessfull save it affects him for one round) followed by misfortune/slumber. Ideally the witches should be flying and invisible to do this. A hexcrafter magus works very well too, and this class can buff her AC for a couple of rounds with the right arcana.
Personally, I think using regenerating Hero Points in place of Mythic works damn well. You might not get some of the "extra" abilities, but you still get characters who are hard to kill and have some truly great abilities when it is called for. Utilizing Hero Points instead of Mythic for WotR probably would nicely.
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Personally, I think using regenerating Hero Points in place of Mythic works damn well. You might not get some of the "extra" abilities, but you still get characters who are hard to kill and have some truly great abilities when it is called for. Utilizing Hero Points instead of Mythic for WotR probably would nicely.
Yeah, but frankly I think the mythic powers are quite an attractive idea, it just requires us to change some of the numbers involved ^^
If I can motivate myself, I will post my personal suggested changes as a google doc and open a discussion on them (and a place for players to post their collected mods).
Personally, I think using regenerating Hero Points in place of Mythic works damn well. You might not get some of the "extra" abilities, but you still get characters who are hard to kill and have some truly great abilities when it is called for. Utilizing Hero Points instead of Mythic for WotR probably would nicely.
That's what I'm doing. I still like the Cheat Death with hero points just in case I make an encounter too strong, someone misses a key save, or takes a heavy crit.