Hey there, Iron God DMs. I just finished reading through "Fires of Creation" and I'm pretty excited to run this AP. There are a few things that are on the forefront of my mind though, so I wanted to throw them out there and see what you thought.
1. Androids seem CRAZY to me, just in terms of RP potential and how outside the PF norm of flavor they seem to be. Most of the super-science falls under this category, too, I think. Everything seems like I'm going to have to describe everything is VERY general and metaphorical terms, consider how alien the design and tech is from anything a vaguely medieval mind would be able to understand. Do you have any ideas about how you will or are handing that?
2. The over-all structure of Book 1 (and the unknown shape of the other 5-- I've never run an AP I couldn't just read everything in a row before), and, as a result, the pacing. It's basically just a single, long dungeon crawl, and the PCs are intended to go back and forth for breaks? Maybe this is how "adventures are usually intended to be handled" but I don't know that my PCs are ever gonna look back. They're probably just keep going no matter what. It's a deep dungeon. Should I just have NPCs tell them to treat it like an exploratory spelunking trip? Part of the great mystery of the whole damn dungeon is that it seems to keep GOING and GOING and GOING. Secondly, any RP seems few and far between. I suppose that Sanvil Trett and Garmen Ulreth can play a larger role if you wish. And Khonnir Baine, clearly, but it'll take AGES to get to him. How have you handled the pacing in your own games?
3. Meyanda. She gets her own category. Also maybe because my fascination and uncertainty about how to handle them. I don't want to ignore just how WEIRD they are. So the main villain of this book is an android to our first Iron God! She has the standard problem of not having enough info known about her before her big fight at the VERY end of the book. Plus, I think it's a waste to not have her be incredibly important, character-wise. First, the book suggests she can be turned into an ally. How? I'd LOVE to be able to do that, but she is only described as a fanatic. Charm Person or bust? Seems kinda unsatisfying to me. I'm considering having an android PC knowing her in his backstory, before she "disappeared" (and I imagine was indoctrinated by Hellion). I don't know, how did YOU folks handle it? I want to PCs to learn more about her, or at least be able to turn her reasonably.
4. Any advice, observations, or ideas you've had running your games! Things you like, things you don't. I'm curious about how your games have unfolded!
Thank you!
I believe the adventure intends #2 to be addressed by the fact that entering or leaving the dungeon becomes difficult if Water Breathing active, forcing the party to retreat before the duration expires.
1. Androids seem CRAZY to me, just in terms of RP potential and how outside the PF norm of flavor they seem to be. Most of the super-science falls under this category, too, I think. Everything seems like I'm going to have to describe everything is VERY general and metaphorical terms, consider how alien the design and tech is from anything a vaguely medieval mind would be able to understand. Do you have any ideas about how you will or are handing that?
We handled it similar to a foreign object. Research is the most important thing to do. For example, access cards are one of the weird things that have to be explained. Much akin to a skeleton key, or a magical item that functions as a key, more a kin to a focus.
For example, you could have the local's compare it akin to charges, only however they are powered through a source that isn't magic.
2. The over-all structure of Book 1 (and the unknown shape of the other 5-- I've never run an AP I couldn't just read everything in a row before), and, as a result, the pacing. It's basically just a single, long dungeon crawl, and the PCs are intended to go back and forth for breaks? Maybe this is how "adventures are usually intended to be handled" but I don't know that my PCs are ever gonna look back. They're probably just keep going no matter what. It's a deep dungeon. Should I just have NPCs tell them to treat it like an exploratory spelunking trip? Part of the great mystery of the whole damn dungeon is that it seems to keep GOING and GOING and GOING. Secondly, any RP seems few and far between. I suppose that Sanvil Trett and Garmen Ulreth can play a larger role if you wish. And Khonnir Baine, clearly, but it'll take AGES to get to him. How have you handled the pacing in your own games?
Player's are going to need to take breaks. What's nice about this AP is that there are many things going on town during those breaks. Such as the Casino.
3. Meyanda. She gets her own category. Also maybe because my fascination and uncertainty about how to handle them. I don't want to ignore just how WEIRD they are. So the main villain of this book is an android to our first Iron God! She has the standard problem of not having enough info known about her before her big fight at the VERY end of the book. Plus, I think it's a waste to not have her be incredibly important,...
Think of her as a very knowledgeable person about her iron god, and she would love to spread the religion. Remember, she is not evil. She is Chaotic Neutral, which means she is someone that you can actually get along with. Indeed, she is not good, but would be a great character that you can replace one of the NPC's should something happen.
1. Unless there is an NPC talking to the PCs i will take the opportunity to go all geek to the players when explaining, i almost never get to do that in pathfinder APs.
2. Although i haven't read the book yet (mine hasn't arrived yet) so i don't know exactly how the dungeon goes but my general advice would be to let the players go as far as they can, when they need to rest; they will fall back and do so.
Regarding Meyanda, the PCs could access a terminal allowing them to spool through recent security surveillance footage to see the android boss and her goons moving through the ship and discussing their plan.
As for forcing the PCs to return to Torch, maybe the colour coded access cards they find need to be biocoded to their DNA and only an NPC like Sanvil Trett has the device to do this.
Player's are going to need to take breaks. What's nice about this AP is that there are many things going on town during those breaks. Such as the Casino. I put the white access card from the dungeon and put it in here as a prize instead of letting player's find it.
Think of her as a very knowledgeable person about her iron god, and she would love to spread the religion. Remember, she is not evil. She is Chaotic Neutral, which means she is someone that you can actually get along with. Indeed, she is not good, but would be a great character that you can replace one of the NPC's should something happen
Ah! I like that idea! That's awesome. Though I guess the casino just doesn't interest me? It seems... boring. And by definition a distraction. Khonnir's presumably in grave danger. So why would the PCs decide to play some silly mini games?
And to Meyanda. Yes. Let's talk about her. I'm fascinated by her potential. Whether or not she wants to spread knowledge of her Iron God, I don't think she'd just let the PCs shut down the power relay and reactive the torchlight. She seems, specifically, single-minded in her motivation and goals. Pretty zealous. Again, I'm thinking about having one of the PCs be a disguised adroid (since I continue to think that such a concept needs to be introducing into the setting SLOWLY) who has some sort of backstory connection to her. Still, I'm having difficulty imagining scenarios where she can he turned around.
Regarding Meyanda, the PCs could access a terminal allowing them to spool through recent security surveillance footage to see the android boss and her goons moving through the ship and discussing their plan.
As for forcing the PCs to return to Torch, maybe the colour coded access cards they find need to be biocoded to their DNA and only an NPC like Sanvil Trett has the device to do this.
Hmmm, those are good suggestions, Mike. I like where your head's at. The first idea seems a little too video gamey for my tastes. But the second idea is really cool.
Has anyone thought about doing this with mythic levels?
What do you think that would add?
Mythic Robots!
EDIT: And in retrospect, a lot of Mythic Mould. :s
You can do mythic in this.
Characters that cure Khonnir's nanite infestation come into contact with an unknown iron god (Hellion) that provide's no name and in fact Khonnir instead gives them the following Riddle: "In a junk yard you will seek she who will bear the iron gods light, take unto this power and only through unity will the awakened find true light. By saving she who bears a spiked hand, will they save without fail."
This relates to the choking tower which is described on page 91 in the AP for the Choking Tower, as well to Meyanda in the final portion as she can freely turn on the reactor's fail safe. They get a piece far in the future, and a piece in the here and now. This will keep them on their toes and force them to take notes as it will help them later down the road. Instead of getting the Experience Reward for Sparing Meyanda and activating the failsafe, they will gain Mythic Tier 1 for solving part of the riddle.
And why the Casino, because remember player's only adventure roughly 1 hour at a time (Water Breathing lasts only 1 hour cast by a 5th level cleric when spread out, 2 hours if he prepares it twice,
The AP actually wants you to do the Casino (they give you 100 gp in credit).
So if they are going to rest for 8 hours, and adventure for 1-2 hours, what are they doing for the other hours. Try different rules and try relaxing for once.
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As for the waterbreathing they get, where are you getting only 1 hour, Oliver? Do you have a huge party or something? Kyte is a 6th lvl caster, WB is 2 hr/lvl and he extends it for 24 hours per casting.
I'm kind of confused as to why they even included the free waterbreathing in the adventure. The tunnel in is only 45' long. Holding your breath and swimming would only take 5 rounds for even a slow creature. If they can't make a DC 10 swim check they only have to carry some gear to weigh them down and they can walk on the bottom.
Our group did black jack, the games I offered were texas hold'em, black jack
Yeah, this is exactly my point. I don't want to RP so I can RP playing blackjack. That's complete nonsense to me. If I wanna play blackjack, I'll play blackjack. Having "my character play blackjack" is ridiculous and mostly, to me, it wastes time, energy and focus from the actual adventure.
Our group did black jack, the games I offered were texas hold'em, black jackYeah, this is exactly my point. I don't want to RP so I can RP playing blackjack. That's complete nonsense to me. If I wanna play blackjack, I'll play blackjack. Having "my character play blackjack" is ridiculous and mostly, to me, it wastes time, energy and focus from the actual adventure.
Make a couple of opposed Bluff checks (or Sleight of Hand / Perception if the players feel cheeky) and you're golden. Maybe apply a random mod of -3 to +3 (roll a d6) to reflect how good their starting hand is.
Make a couple of opposed Bluff checks (or Sleight of Hand / Perception if the players feel cheeky) and you're golden. Maybe apply a random mod of -3 to +3 (roll a d6) to reflect how good their starting hand is.
Definitely a neat idea. And maybe this is just a matter of taste. But it doesn't fix the problem that I find the whole concept being plain boring and distracting from the overall importance or narrative. It seems a very JRPG thing to do-- disrupt the tone and focus to have some "fun", which is just playing a game where you're playing a game. Silly.
Make a couple of opposed Bluff checks (or Sleight of Hand / Perception if the players feel cheeky) and you're golden. Maybe apply a random mod of -3 to +3 (roll a d6) to reflect how good their starting hand is.Definitely a neat idea. And maybe this is just a matter of taste. But it doesn't fix the problem that I find the whole concept being plain boring and distracting from the overall importance or narrative. It seems a very JRPG thing to do-- disrupt the tone and focus to have some "fun", which is just playing a game where you're playing a game. Silly.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions :) Modules are guides after all, and the module just wanted to introduce a villain through a non-traditional method, such as "roll initiative."
It's why they get experience points for Roleplaying, no roleplay, then they only miss out on 400 experience points.
As for the waterbreathing they get, where are you getting only 1 hour, Oliver? Do you have a huge party or something? Kyte is a 6th lvl caster, WB is 2 hr/lvl and he extends it for 24 hours per casting.
I'm kind of confused as to why they even included the free waterbreathing in the adventure. The tunnel in is only 45' long. Holding your breath and swimming would only take 5 rounds for even a slow creature. If they can't make a DC 10 swim check they only have to carry some gear to weigh them down and they can walk on the bottom.
The Wizard's Familiar is the reason why for our group. Everyone usually tends to forget about familiars sadly, and that they also need to breathe.
Also it's a 24 hour duration due to the extend rod. so it would be 4 hours split up (or 6 if you have 4 players, no animal companion/familiar)
Unlike most GM's, when I channel energy to harm living creatures, even familiar's need to make a will save, or suffer damage. It's just the way I am.
This is why for the water breathing:
45-foot-long submerged waterway
requires a DC 10 Swim check (ok, what's your str modifier, now your armor check penalty, yep you are gonna hurt).
Average wizard strength 8
average fighter strength 16, armor check penalty (scalemail)
Contact requires fort save vs. sicken is normal from the tainted water every round. This portion instead however causes short-term nausea.
Nauseated: Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move actions per turn.
so if you fail that DC 11 fortitude save vs. it you will die without water breathing.
But I want to be a nice DM:
so swim- Action: A successful Swim check allows you to swim a quarter of your speed as a move action or half your speed as a full-round action.
Walking underwater is not in the rules sadly. But if it were to be, it would be treated as if swimming and being difficult terrain.
Now the nitty gritty:
Action: A successful Swim check allows you to swim a quarter of your speed as a move action or half your speed as a full-round action.
Now what is 1/4 of 30? 7.5 feet, and we round down. 5 feet. Difficult terrain :
Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement.
This means to move 5 feet it takes two rounds when walking under water.
That is 18 rounds, and you lose your standard action, meaning you is gonna die if you don't have a con of an 18. The module just made it easier to do by giving you water breathing.
because when you take a standard or a full round (you are nauseated so you can only take move actions) when holding your breath it uses up an additional round. You can only hold your breath for a number of rounds equal to your constitution score.
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Walking underwater is not in the rules sadly. But if it were to be, it would be treated as if swimming and being difficult terrain.
Umm... nope.
Condition Movement Off Balance?
Firm footing4 half No4 Creatures have firm footing when walking along the bottom, braced against a ship’s hull, or the like. A creature can only walk along the bottom if it wears or carries enough gear to weigh itself down: at least 16 pounds for Medium creatures, twice that for each size category larger than Medium, and half that for each size category smaller than Medium.
No where does it mention difficult terrain, and even then you're still moving at half speed, so even with DT you'd be moving a min of 5' a round.
I'm not even going to touch the rest of your assumptions.
"Contact requires fort save vs. sicken is normal from the tainted water every round." that's on page 66 in the AP. This portion instead however causes short-term nausea. it's in the paragraph that talks about the cleric and the water breathing.
Nauseated: Creatures with the nauseated condition experience stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move actions per turn.
The above is accurate
forgot about clause 4.
4 Creatures have firm footing when walking along the bottom, braced against a ship's hull, or the like. A creature can only walk along the bottom if it wears or carries enough gear to weigh itself down: at least 16 pounds for Medium creatures, twice that for each size category larger than Medium, and half that for each size category smaller than Medium.
The true part is the nauseated, so technically yes they would be able to walk along the bottom, as long as they have 16 lbs of stuff, worst case scenario it would take 3-6 rounds depending on size/gear.
Pretty certain that they meant short-term nausea as the Sickened Condition listed on page 66.. but its not unreasonable at all to make it a little stronger and make it Nauseated.
I went with the former, though, and even then half my group was sickened for the beetles.. and the blindheim. My players weren't waiting until their stomachs to settle when there was killing to do! XD
Sickened is a fun condition, -2 is a fun penalty.
>.> still feel sorry for the fighter. Fire beetle rolled a nat 20, then confirmed with a nat 20, and due to the o'house rule, I rolled again and got a 3rd nat 20. 1/8000 dice roll for the win.
J doesn't have much luck when it comes to getting hit sadly.
D doesn't have much luck vs. fort saves (Jade Regent wasn't his favorite AP), but then again this is a guy who has no qualms casting AoE spells when the party is around to save his hide. He also has a high tendency to do PK sessions.
Ah yeah I tried that houserule once myself back when I first started DMing.. both my players and I agreed that we didn't like it though.
Explains how that Fire Beetle got a kill in the Obituaries thread, though.
Yeah we make fun of him right now.
Another epic mistake he did in a past campaign was use create wondrous creature to make a tarrasque and it came out retarded.
I totally want to get him a Hercules Beetle!