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no, you're removing size as a factor from the start.
Saying 'but if I get this race I get this bonus' is no different then me saying "Here, use Orcs for your Dex build."
Humanity is stat neutral. It favors none of them. You're basically telling me that because you can't take a race that favors a Dex build more then 90% of the other races, you have a handicap?
You're not making a comparison at that point. You're making an optimal build. There's a difference.
A comparison says I can take everything you have, alter the focus from Dex to Str, and see what happens.
For instance, if you want to play a small character, can I spend 2.5k to get a Permanently Enlarged character? This gives me many advantages, which don't really benefit a dex wielder at all.
See why we don't bring size into comparisons?
==Aelryinth
I've already explained why humans are not stat neutral when comparing dexterity and strength. And I'd be perfectly fine with you spending money to get a permanently enlarged character so long as the dex user would have the same option to gain a Permanent Reduced character, that's just clever application of WBL. It also highlights an advantage strength has over dex that would otherwise be missed, how strength has better synergy with size changes - strength users gain reach, while dex users sacrifice it.
And a permanent Enlarge Person spell would cost 2950 GP - don't forget the spellcasting services cost. :)
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No, you've explained that you don't want to give up a dex bonus for being small.
Humans are stat neutral and do not favor Str. There's no bonus or penalty for dex at medium size.
You're trying to leverage size advantage. You're fine to do that in an optimization build, but not a comparison build.
==Aelryinth
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I'm not giving up a dex bonus for being small - halflings and humans both get a bonus to dexterity. Humans, by virtue of not being small, inherently favor strength over dexterity by placing a handicap on dexterity. Ignoring the advantage a small dex user has over a medium-size dex user will automatically skew your results, since you're not actually using the advantages dexterity offer over strength.
It's akin to comparing THF and TWF but deciding that neither build can use power attack. Clearly the results you'll get from the comparison will be inaccurate, since that option affects the two builds differently.
I really don't know how I can explain it more clearly than that.
Medium is the default size assumption for the game...everything else is adjusted by bonuses and penalties.
I love playing high dex characters,and I usually am medium..because there's no penalty to speed..and I like to run around.Mobility with acrobatics is one of the things I like the most about dextrous types.
I think you guys should make the sword and board comparison as well.
I love playing high dex characters,and I usually am medium..because there's no penalty to speed..and I like to run around.Mobility with acrobatics is one of the things I like the most about dextrous types.
Have you seen the Fleet of Foot alternate racial trait for halflings? It's in the Advanced Race Guide - you trade the +2 racial bonus on acrobatics and climb skills for a 30 foot movement speed. :)
If your GM is open to unusual races you can also consider the goblin (10 rp) and the grippli (10 rp), which are both small-sized races with a 30 foot base speed. :)
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I love playing high dex characters,and I usually am medium..because there's no penalty to speed..and I like to run around.Mobility with acrobatics is one of the things I like the most about dextrous types.Have you seen the Fleet of Foot alternate racial trait for halflings? It's in the Advanced Race Guide - you trade the +2 racial bonus on acrobatics and climb skills for a 30 foot movement speed. :)
Frankly - I could never see playing a halfling who didn't take that trait. Sure the +2 bonus is handy, but not near as handy as being faster. (especially since some of the things the +2 is handy for are things like jumping or using acrobatics at full speed, which the faster movement makes unneeded)
Frankly - I could never see playing a halfling who didn't take that trait. Sure the +2 bonus is handy, but not near as handy as being faster. (especially since some of the things the +2 is handy for are things like jumping or using acrobatics at full speed, which the faster movement makes unneeded)I love playing high dex characters,and I usually am medium..because there's no penalty to speed..and I like to run around.Mobility with acrobatics is one of the things I like the most about dextrous types.Have you seen the Fleet of Foot alternate racial trait for halflings? It's in the Advanced Race Guide - you trade the +2 racial bonus on acrobatics and climb skills for a 30 foot movement speed. :)
I agree, the Fleet-foot racial trait option makes playing a halfling much more palatable for me. 20 foot base speed is hardly an insurmountable obstacle, but I find it really annoying at low levels.
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I agree, the Fleet-foot racial trait option makes playing a halfling much more palatable for me. 20 foot base speed is hardly an insurmountable obstacle, but I find it really annoying at low levels.Frankly - I could never see playing a halfling who didn't take that trait. Sure the +2 bonus is handy, but not near as handy as being faster. (especially since some of the things the +2 is handy for are things like jumping or using acrobatics at full speed, which the faster movement makes unneeded)I love playing high dex characters,and I usually am medium..because there's no penalty to speed..and I like to run around.Mobility with acrobatics is one of the things I like the most about dextrous types.Have you seen the Fleet of Foot alternate racial trait for halflings? It's in the Advanced Race Guide - you trade the +2 racial bonus on acrobatics and climb skills for a 30 foot movement speed. :)
Not too bad for casters or archers (doesn't bother my gnome sorceror much), but SUPER annoying for melee.
That is awesome.I just got the ARG a couple of weeks ago.I'm really looking forward to playing a halfling daggermaster in the spirit of "The Grey Mouser".
That is awesome.I just got the ARG a couple of weeks ago.I'm really looking forward to playing a halfling daggermaster in the spirit of "The Grey Mouser".
Happy to help! You made a good purchase, the ARG is a great read and has a lot of really cool new options. :)
Since you mentioned the Grey Mouser: the Swashbuckler actually has an archetype named the Mouser! Both can be found in the Advanced Class Guide. You can take a look at the archetype here. :)
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I'm not giving up a dex bonus for being small - halflings and humans both get a bonus to dexterity. Humans, by virtue of not being small, inherently favor strength over dexterity by placing a handicap on dexterity. Ignoring the advantage a small dex user has over a medium-size dex user will automatically skew your results, since you're not actually using the advantages dexterity offer over strength.
It's akin to comparing THF and TWF but deciding that neither build can use power attack. Clearly the results you'll get from the comparison will be inaccurate, since that option affects the two builds differently.
I really don't know how I can explain it more clearly than that.
Your logic is in error.
Humans place no advantage on strength or dexterity. They are statistic neutral and favor neither stat.
It is the halflings who place the emphasis on dexterity, both by being small and having a racial dex bonus. And if you were doing an optimization run, that's FINE. 100% with you, all the way.
You are not. You are trying to make a COMPARISON. Which means everything identical and as neutral as possible. Which comparing a Halfling to another build is not.
I'm not sure how much clearer I can get. If you don't want to compare, fine, you're great. Post your optimized build. If you want a true comparison, then you're not doing it right.
==Aelryinth
I won't be getting the ACG...The swashbuckler is cool conceptually..I just wish they were given additional precision damage dice instead of adding Dex to damage.
I don't allow dex to damage at all,so I won't buy any of the books that include it as an option.
I don't play in Golarian...so no dervish dancing either.
It's symptomatic of my particular variety of Grognardism. :)
I don't like the idea of it...
strong
strôNG/
adjective
adjective: strong; comparative adjective: stronger; superlative adjective: strongest
1.
having the power to move heavy weights or perform other physically demanding tasks.
"she cut through the water with her strong arms"
Dexterity has nothing to do with generating force.
dex·ter·i·ty
dekˈsteritē/
noun
noun: dexterity
skill in performing tasks, especially with the hands.
"her dexterity with chopsticks"
These things are not interchangeable in my mind.It just doesn't jive.
It makes as much sense as adding constitution,or wisdom..or anything else.
Physically,Weak people tend to die quickly in close combat with primitive weapons.STR matters alot IRL.(unimportant,I know)
IMHO it was a mistake on Paizos part to open this can of worms.
All of this is just my opinion.I don't have any antipathy for anyone who does like it.It's the type of game that was meant to be adjudicated anyway.
The "can of worms" has been open at least since Tome of Battle and has persisted into PF and 4th and 5th edition D&D. If anyone knows if it was around before 3.5 let me know.
I never got Tome of battle either...4th edition D&D was horrible,to my sensibilities.So perhaps it's unfair to place all the blame on Paizo atleast.Whoever,whenever did it I guess. :)
Humans place no advantage on strength or dexterity. They are statistic neutral and favor neither stat.
This is incorrect - humans are ability score neutral. That does mean not they are statistic neutral. When comparing a dexterity build and a strength build there is no statistic neutral race. All races are either medium or small, where the small size favors dex and the medium size favors strength - there is no middle point.
This is why you should either do a comparison with multiple races if you want the full picture, or ignore race bonuses and do a comparison using templates if you want as close an approximation between the two modifiers as possible.
18 start strength, +2 racial stat, +2 strength from enlarge person, rage +4, Mutagen +4, belt +4. Throw all your money into a +2 furious courageous weapon and have another +2 Str, con, will saves to go along with that +4 enhancement sword.
Lol! Now who's chasing the DPR dragon? :D
I'd be happy to compare numbers with you if you post the full character - barbarian 1/mutagen warrior 9 I believe? It'll be fun to see how the two different characters size up. :)
The goblin was made using 20PB, two traits (no drawbacks) and normal WBL. I'll also update my fighter. I'm contemplating adding an urban barbarian dip. Otherwise it should be mostly unchanged, apart from reshuffling WBL a bit and fitting in power attack. :)
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I won't be getting the ACG...The swashbuckler is cool conceptually..I just wish they were given additional precision damage dice instead of adding Dex to damage.
I don't allow dex to damage at all,so I won't buy any of the books that include it as an option.
The swashbuckler does get additional precision damage, they add their level (instead of dice).
Also your argument about DEX to damage is somewhat flawed (I agree with your philosophy though about running by individual preference). There are definitely historical styles that are finesse based, and just because someone is high DEX does not mean they are physically weak. How I approach it is that DEX to damage is also precision damage (thus it is NOT multiplied on a crit). I also enforce negative modifiers from STR to damage always (you may be using finesse, but if you decide to use STR as a dump stat you will still have problems). Its not perfect, but it allows STR to still keep a decided damage advantage (so STR fighters do not become overshadowed), while allowing The nimble fighter type to still be effective in his niche.
Since you're so s*@+ hot at optimising, why not write an optimised dex based build? For melee, obviously. 20 point build, WBL, say level... oh, anywhere in the range 6-12. Oh, and make it something that was playable from level 1, not like it just popped into existence fully formed with PrCs.
Lulz. I did. It exists. Its listed above. Made a tenth level fighter with 181 DPR. Its survivability is fine, albiet I would be more survivable with dropping down 11 DPR. It was being ignored so yeah... I stopped presenting it. It was based under the DPR Olympics rules, which do require minimum defenses as well as maximizing damage. Everything is playable from level 1. I had a wizard whose highest stat was 13 ( rolling is hilarious sometimes) and it survived just fine. perhaps you should define playable.
As for your previous comment regarding pulling the numbers out of the air... they arent. I showed you the numbers and where they come from FIRST, and showed you the differences. In fact... I showed you TWO different ways and undercut my own maximum benefits by comparing them to a standard structure.
Stuff on Races.
You guys are both right, and both wrong.
There is no neutral race for a baseline, except no race. However.. using no race or 'neutral' bonus of +2 is more detrimental to the Dex build than it is the strength build because Dex gets to focus so much more on thier one stat to cover everything, that they actually lose more with each lack of benefit.
Its an interesting conundrum really. However, my build used Human, and could benefit sooo much by choosing goblin instead. I had not even thought to use that race.
Stuff on his fighter build.
I did ask you to update that character, fix some of the things that adapting the build didn't catch, like the saves and the HP. It's hard to get a full picture on the character when the numbers don't really add up.
That Double Slice works with dex-to-damage is a controversial ruling at best. I'd personally I'd prefer if you didn't rely on that interpretation.
Goblin is arguably the best race for quite a few dexterity-SAD builds (like gunslingers), though obviously it's not allowed at all tables. If goblin is a no-go, the fleet-foot halfling is an excellent substitute. :)
Ironically Arcane Strike is a really good extra source of damage for fighters, since they frequently don't need their swift actions. A trait SLA with level-scaling CL like Light-bringer lets the damage scale to level too.
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Stuff on his fighter build.That Double Slice works with dex-to-damage is a controversial ruling at best. I'd personally I'd prefer if you didn't rely on that interpretation.
How is it controversial? It is actually quite straight forward by both RAW and RAI. All four DEX to damage methods (Dervish Dance, Slashing Grace, 1st level Aldori SL PrC, and agile enhancement) specifically say to use DEX in place of STR. Double Slice refers to your STR bonus to damage. Therefore you replace STR with DEX and Double Slice does the same thing for that bonus.
If you are saying the Double Slice feat only mentions STR, then by that argument, only the agile enhancement has reduced damage for offhand as it is the only one that says the offhand is reduced. All the other methods make no such distinction.
How is it controversial? It is actually quite straight forward by both RAW and RAI. All four DEX to damage methods (Dervish Dance, Slashing Grace, 1st level Aldori SL PrC, and agile enhancement) specifically say to use DEX in place of STR. Double Slice refers to your STR bonus to damage. Therefore you replace STR with DEX and Double Slice does the same thing for that bonus.Stuff on his fighter build.That Double Slice works with dex-to-damage is a controversial ruling at best. I'd personally I'd prefer if you didn't rely on that interpretation.
RAW Double Slice is perfectly clear in that it works with strength - Agile/Slashing Grace/Dervish Dance all allow you to use your strength modifier instead of your dexterity modifier to determine your damage, but they don't say anything about how strength-dex interacts with other feats.
For the RaI ruling, see this post.
Standard disclaimer: answers given in Ask X Anything threads are not rules-binding or official in any way, manner or form.
Whenever I make builds for the forums I try to avoid controversial options like Sacred Geometry etc - that's why I assume Double Slice does not work with dexterity.
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Read my edit.
I also vehemently disagree with Mark's (from your link) statement as it is contrary to EVERY other ruling and design theory behind replacement bonuses. It is a well established principle that replacement bonuses follow all restrictions and rules for the bonus they are replacing, as well as being modified by circumstances and abilities. As I just mentioned in my edit, by the logic you are using, then Slashing Grace allows your off hand to ALWAYS do full damage as it does not state it is halved.
EDIT: Also wording is important, the abilities do not allow you to use DEX INSTEAD of STR, but IN PLACE of. That is a key wording as it is saying that the new bonus follows ALL rules for STR bonus in that place EXCEPT where specifically noted (i.e. no 1.5x bonus for @H use).
I absolutely agree that how replacement ability scores interact with feats and general rules is unclear (I once met a player who thought Slashing Grace* let him use his dexterity as strength to qualify for combat feats) and I hope they add a FAQ on it in the future. In the meantime I'd suggest hitting the FAQ button in this thread, and/or creating a thread in the RQ forum that debates Double Slice and dex-to-damage specifically.
*Edited for clarity, was thinking of the wrong feat.
Stuff
Tell you what. I will adjust the character a bit. Maybe change him to a halfling (lulz) and make the necessary changes. Give me a bit, and I will repost the character here again.
Im with Galahad here in suggesting its not really controvercial, but I'm really not losing too much DPR with it.
StuffTell you what. I will adjust the character a bit. Maybe change him to a halfling (lulz) and make the necessary changes. Give me a bit, and I will repost the character here again.
Thanks! :)
Thanks! :)StuffTell you what. I will adjust the character a bit. Maybe change him to a halfling (lulz) and make the necessary changes. Give me a bit, and I will repost the character here again.
Revamped Character is in the spoiler.
My DPR went down by about 15 as I suspected. A lot of the damage comes from ability to hit, and my to hit bonus was overkill for the specific parameters. I improved a lot though as far as Will saves and the like. Anyone who says this build isn't survivable is insane. Also... I have 9 attacks of opportunity, and at level 11 I get an additional 3rd attack that will improve my damage even further.
I stayed human. I improved my Will Save dramatically, and changed out of the Vicious because it really didnt provide that much extra damage.
Ability Scores: (Human) (Fighter/Mutation Warrior Archetype)
STR: 13 (+1)
DEX: 28 (+9) (16 base, +2 level +4 Enhancement, +2 Racial, +4 Mutagen)
CON: 14 (+2)
INT: 10 (0)
WIS: 10 (0) ( Base 12, -2 Mutagen)
CHA: 8 (-1)
HP: 80 HP (10+9D10+20)
Saving Throws
Fort: +9 (Base 7, Con+1, Cloak +1 )
Ref: +13 (Base 3, Dex+ 9, Cloak +1 )
Will: +7 (Base 3, Wis +0, Cloak +1, Feat +2, +1 Trait – Additional +1 when not using Mutagen, and +3 against Fear Saves)
AC: 23 - Touch 17, Flatfooted 18 (+4 Mithril Shirt, +6 Dex, +1 Dodge, +2 Natural Armor)
Attacks: Main +10/+10/+5 Off +10/+5
(Hit – 10 Bab + 1 Weapon, +1 Haste +2 Focus, +4 Weapon Training, +9 Dex, -2 Two Weapon Penalty, -3 Power = +22 )
Damage: 1D6 (3.5 Base +1 Weapon, +9 Dex, +2 Specialize, +4 Weapon Training, +6/3 Power, Crit Damage +6) + Elemental Damage (Avg 3.5) = 29/22.5 (Crit 32.5/24)
O
Trait: Killer +Damage based on crit range on crit attacks.
Indomitable Faith (+1 Will Saves)
-----------Attack------------------Hit%------Dmg------Crit%-----CDmg-----Cr itConf-- Resulting Damage
1st Main Hand Attack------------.95--------29-------.30----------32.5----------.95------- - 36.8125
Haste Attack----------------------.95--------29-------.30----------32.5---------. 95-------- 36.8125
Second Main Hand Attack--------.75-------29 -------.30----------32.5---------.75-------- 29.0625
1st Off Hand Attack--------------.95--------22.5-------.30----------24---------.95------ -- 28.215
2nd Off Hand Attack-------------.75--------22.5-------.30----------24---------.75------- - 22.275
Total - 153.1775
Class Abilities:
Weapon Training +2 (light blades)
Weapon Training +1 (bows)
Bonus Feats X 6
BAB: +10 CMB: +11 CMD: 30
Feats:
1st - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Wakizashi), Two Weapon Fighting, Iron Will
2nd Weapon Finesse
3rd Dex to Damage Feat
4th Weapon Focus (Wakizashi)
5th Weapon Specialization (Wakizashi)
6th Power Attack
7th Improve Two Weapon Fighting
8th Greater Weapon Focus
9th Combat Reflexes
10th Improve Critical
Skills:
Ya know…
Gear:
+1 Icy Wakizashi (8,000)
+1 Flaming Wakizashi (8,000)
Belt of Dexterity +4 (16,000)
Mithril Shirt (1,100)
Boots of Speed (12,000)
Gloves of Dueling (15,000)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1,000)
Kudaku,
Btw, the comment about people just parsing rules was not directed at you. It was about the arguments being presented on the link you provided. Your arguments are more substantive in nature as opposed to the more pedantic ones in that link.
I appreciate the clarification and the sentiment.
For what it's worth I actually use Mark's suggestion for my home games when it comes to Double Slice - while I don't really think strength-based THF is threatened by Dex-TWF, I do think that the dex to damage-options makes strength TWF (via ranger/slayer combat styles) or traditional strength-dex split TWF builds hard to justify.
Leaving Double Slice and Two-Weapon Rend "strength-only" TWF feats gives those build options a bone and and helps shrink the gap between the output of strength and dex TWF. When the dex user takes weapon finesse and slashing grace, the strength user takes Double Slice and Two-Weapon rend.
@TheJayde
I'm just about to head out to meet some friends so I can't really give your build the attention it deserves right now, but I skimmed it quickly and I think it looks like a fun character! Thank you for taking my suggestions on improving the saves and not using vicious. :)
So, for Slashing Grace you allow full DEX mod for offhand?
I did not. I put half. However, I added 4.5 damage instead of just 4, which was a mistake, but shouldn't equate to much of a difference in the DPR really. Offhand Damage is 22.5 which is 7 less than the 29 of main hand. This accounts for 4.5 from the Dex, and 3 from the power attack.
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I was asking Kudako. Because he was using the thought of going by what the feats and rules say (for instance, Double Slice only refers to STR), therefore since the rule for half damage for offhand attacks also only refers to STR and the agile enhancement (it doesn't apply to Dervish Dance as that only works when fighting with one hand as does the Aldori Swordlord ability), then the consistent ruling would be that Slashing Grace does not halve the damage with offhand attack.
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Revamped Character is in the spoiler.My DPR went down by about 15 as I suspected. A lot of the damage comes from ability to hit, and my to hit bonus was overkill for the specific parameters. I improved a lot though as far as Will saves and the like. Anyone who says this build isn't survivable is insane. Also... I have 9 attacks of opportunity, and at level 11 I get an additional 3rd attack that will improve my damage even further.
I stayed human. I improved my Will Save dramatically, and changed out of the Vicious because it really didnt provide that much extra damage.
It's not horrible for survivability - but its AC's kinda weak for level 10.
@ Galahad0430- there is a case to be made for adding wisdom/intelligence to damage as well.I know that there are a few mechanics that get in on that.
I just don't like how it opens up the door to having a halfling or a kitty cat slashing for 1d3 or 1d4 +5 static damage as a result of it.
It's been my experience that high dex characters often dump strength..because it becomes not very valuable.
In boxing or MMA for example...there are weight classes.They do this because bigger stronger guys have an "unfair" advantage over their smaller counterparts.
A lightweight could get lucky,or out speed a heavyweight,but on average the heavyweight fighters punches are going to hit considerably harder.
Disconnecting strength from damage reduces the value of being strong.
I hardly play the same game as you all in PFS (those that play there).
I think what's trying to be addressed is more of a systemic issue with the lack of proper support for precision damage...causing DEX focused characters to feel like they are lackluster compared to more DPR maxed STR builds.
I think the key lies in making called shots and precision damage impose effects more easily and give precision strikers a chance to shine..BY ACTUALLY MAKING PRECISE ATTACKs.
Instead it seems like the developers have decided to fix it by calling strength dex and letting it apply a flat mechanical bonus...seems like an easy out,that will end up being re-examined in more detail later.
So in conclusion..I just want to get across that i WANT dex builds to work well (as they do in my home games),but just letting dex count as str seems like an inelegant way to do it.it just shoehorns it in and says "imagine that hard hit was actually damaging due to location rather than force."
They still force players to jump thru a bunch of hoops and/or dips to get it.Which limit the effective scope of such builds.
Good stuff.
Based on what you've said in the last post, I want to comment on something so much deeper than the damage stats of a high dex build over a Strength build. Your statements actually brought me to a more interesting conclusion about Dex fighters, and why I think that they are so much better than STR fighters... and Im talking about before the dex to damage boost.
Dex damage guys may not do huge amounts of damage, but...they don't have to. In many cases, the Dex fellow can be sneaky to accomplish thier goals. Armor is noisy and clunky and causes a lot of issues with movement, and stealth. The ability to wear no armor... and have a respoectable fighitng utility (maybe not the best) is awesome.
You can 'defeat' combats by avoidance, or making an opportunity to strike at the right time. Use distractions to pick off your opponents one at a time. Set up ambushes as well.
Being Dex based gives you so much more options outside of combat that not only let you avoid combat, but let you win it if you use it correctly. When we get to level 10, we tend to stop thinking about things like that... I think... i feel... I dont know for sure, but once we get all that power, we start to apply that first instead of tactics.
Anyways...
TL;DR
Dex provides so much more than combat, and I think we have collectively undervalued this aspect of the game through the conversation. We have brought it up, but it's a big bonus.
As an aside here, I allowed people with Expertise and Weapon Finesse to apply their Expertise bonus as precision damage with Finesse weapons, completely staying away from Dex to damage.
This drives home the fact that Expertise is about being an expert fighter, makes the feat more broadly useful, and restricts the value to about +6...which is about equal to what the spread should be between a dex build and their Str score. IN other words, it keeps Str valuable, but throws a bone to finesse users via a feat that has more usefulness now.
==Aelryinth
Here are my fixes.They are just copy pasted from my houserules.
30.CALLED SHOTS from Ultimate combat are in effect.
31.DEADLY MANEUVERS- Positioning combat manuevers,like bullrush and reposition do not require you to move the enemy to a “safe” square.Forcing something into a wall causes it to become ‘Flat-footed’ until the beginning of it’s next turn.BEING PUSHED OFF A CLIFF allows a final CMB or Reflex saving throw vs. The TOTAL ATTACK ROLL.Success stops you at the edge.Failure by 4 or less means you are hanging off the edge.Failure by 5 or more sends the victim plummeting.BEING FORCED INTO OBSTRUCTIONS allows a CMB or Reflex save versus the TOTAL ATTACK ROLL.Failure knocks the victim prone.IMPROVED SIDESTEP is not limited to threatened area.
36.EVASION gives you an ‘Immediate Action’ to move up to your base speed, in order to acquire Total/partial cover or escape the blast radius.This movement cannot be used to get closer to the point of emanation.
· Failure to acquire cover or a safe square results in full damage,or half damage if you have improved evasion.
Any form of cover is acceptable,even an ally;but something has to between you and the point of emanation.
· Cartwheel dodge allows you to move up half your base speed CLOSER to the point of emanation.
37.A DEBILITATING BLOW is dealt when a character takes damage greater than his CONSTITUTION score or greater than half his CURRENT hit point total (Whichever is more) as part of a Called shot.
A successful SNEAK ATTACK while performing a Called shot counts as a ‘Critical called shot’.
Feats/traits that increase fort save increase this threshold by the same value.(ex:Great fortitude would add +2 to your effective CON)
Sorry about the text wall.Thus far these mechanics have been working very well.
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@Larkspire -
I like the evasion rules. We house-ruled something similar the short time our group played Naruto d20, though in that case you had to move to the closed edge of the AOE. (surprisingly good system once you get your teeth in it) It was to nerf evasion which was too easy to get in the base system of d20 modern, and due to the nature on combat in Naruto d20 (very mobile and a lot of positioning) manuvering opponents around like that could be very advantageous, and there are a lot of good AOE jutsus.
36.EVASION gives you an ‘Immediate Action’ to move up to your base speed, in order to acquire Total/partial cover or escape the blast radius.This movement cannot be used to get closer to the point of emanation.
· Failure to acquire cover or a safe square results in full damage,or half damage if you have improved evasion.
Any form of cover is acceptable,even an ally;but something has to between you and the point of emanation.
· Cartwheel dodge allows you to move up half your base speed CLOSER to the point of emanation.
I use something very similar in place of evasion. Except they get to move a number of squares equal to thier Agility modifier, and if they use up thier movement for this immediate action, they end thier turn prone. Though I didnt think about cover... just moving to escape the area of effect of the spell.
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Instead of start a new thread, I'll continue (nex) the conversation here. I am convinced that adding functions (both native and investment-based) to DX without doing the same for ST is the main problem of most people's "fixes."
That said, I am firmly in the DX-to-damage camp because not only is it already in the game in several manifestations (Agile property, Dervish Dance, Fencing Grace, Slashing Grace, Unchained Rogue), but because I think that by letting the ability score encroachment be a two-way street, fewer of the arguments against DX-to-damage seem to hold water.
In may home game, ST and DX cover:
ST
melee weapon attacks
melee weapon damage
thrown weapon attacks
thrown weapon damage
archery weapon damage
CMB
Carrying capacity
Ability checks and Swim
Fortitude saves (with one feat, subbing CON)
Athletics (new skill which also allows "tumbling" aka avoiding AoOs; climb, jump)
Subbing for TWF requirements (one feat: added to Double Slice's effects)
DX
finesse weapon attacks
ranged weapon attacks
finesse weapon damage (with one feat, but never x1.5, ST penalty applies)
ranged weapon damage (with one feat, but only to 30 feet, subbing ST if archery)
CMB (with one feat, Agile Maneuvers)
Armor Class
Initiative
Reflex saves
Ability checks and 7 skills (Acrobatics, DD, EA, Fly, Ride, SoH, Stealth)
(bolded sections are house rules)
...
It is also relevant mentioning that TWF (like Power Attack) is a single scaling feat in my house rules (TWF/ITWF/GTWF).
I was wondering then, given that Strength now has additional functions including throwing weapons and increased mobility via "Athletics," and retains it's x1.5 damage superiority, if granting "Weapon Finesse" for free and DX-to-damage for one feat each (melee, ranged), helps keep the two ability scores more comparatively balanced.
Thoughts?
Deadly Agility add Dex in place of Str for damage but with only light and finessable weapons. Its in the Path of War supplement by Dreamscarred Press. Pretty much one way to make a rogue better in combat when sneak attacking isn't reliable.