Two Weapon Fighting with a Bow and Unarmed Strike


Rules Questions

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If an Unarmed Strike is defined as a punch, kick, or headbutt, then why can't I just employ a kick or headbutt as my unarmed strike when TWF'ing with a Bow?


Elbedor wrote:
If an Unarmed Strike is defined as a punch, kick, or headbutt, then why can't I just employ a kick or headbutt as my unarmed strike when TWF'ing with a Bow?

The same reason you can't while wielding a greatsword. The weapon you are using requires your primary and off-hand thus denying extra attacks from two-weapon fighting.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

If we don't discuss why the limitation put forth exists, then we cannot have a full understanding if it applies to Bows.

Just as "one hand to use" does not equal "One-handed Weapon", neither does "two hands to use" equal "two handed weapon".

All we have, is that an attack with a two-handed weapon, subsumes a potential off-hand attack.

Other than that, which is actually in the rulebook, is that an off-hand attack, subsumes an off-hand attack.

We have nothing regarding Ranged weapons, that notes it does, or does not, subsume an off-hand attack, except when used to make an off-hand attack.

We have to go beyond the written rules, and the FAQ, to say that a Ranged attack, that requires two hands, is the same as a two-handed weapon attack, in that it subsumes a potential off-hand attack.


Elbedor wrote:
If an Unarmed Strike is defined as a punch, kick, or headbutt, then why can't I just employ a kick or headbutt as my unarmed strike when TWF'ing with a Bow?

The TWF/THW FAQ leaves this as an uncertain corner case. It doesn't follow the stated reasoning behind that restriction, and bows aren't classified as tho-handed weapons. So naturally some people feel one way and some another. I happen to agree with you.


If you're interested...

The Actual Rules:

PRD wrote:

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon's size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
Longbow: At almost 5 feet in height, a longbow is made up of one solid piece of carefully curved wood. You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow. If you have a Strength bonus, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow (see below), but not when you use a regular longbow.
Shortbow: A shortbow is made up of one piece of wood, about 3 feet in length. You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a shortbow while mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a shortbow. If you have a bonus for high Strength, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite shortbow (see below), but not a regular shortbow.

Clearly the hands being referenced are the primary and off hands. When two-handed weapons call out requiring two hands, they are not simply being redundant. Two-handed weapons require a primary hand. Nobody has more than one primary hand.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That would be under the assumption that it is an actual hand?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
That would be under the assumption that it is an actual hand?

Can you give me a little more context for this question. I'm not sure what you're asking.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Does the two-handed weapon attack subsume an off-hand attack, because it uses an additional actual hand, or an additional metaphorical hand of effort?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

If we don't discuss why the limitation put forth exists, then we cannot have a full understanding if it applies to Bows.

Just as "one hand to use" does not equal "One-handed Weapon", neither does "two hands to use" equal "two handed weapon".

All we have, is that an attack with a two-handed weapon, subsumes a potential off-hand attack.

Other than that, which is actually in the rulebook, is that an off-hand attack, subsumes an off-hand attack.

We have nothing regarding Ranged weapons, that notes it does, or does not, subsume an off-hand attack, except when used to make an off-hand attack.

We have to go beyond the written rules, and the FAQ, to say that a Ranged attack, that requires two hands, is the same as a two-handed weapon attack, in that it subsumes a potential off-hand attack.

BBT where and why do we only have "is that an attack with a two-handed weapon, subsumes a potential off-hand attack."

Likewise, you couldn't use an armored gauntlet to do so, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.

The reason you can't combine them is you're using both of your hands to wield the weapon. Not that it's a two-handed weapon. Now a "Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively." and "You need two hands to use a bow" so since it's "using both of your hands to wield" your weapon it falls under the FAQ. Just like wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands falls under the FAQ. Wielding a one-handed weapon in two hands does not make it a two-handed weapon. But it's the same, if you are "using both of your hands to wield" a two-handed weapon, one-handed weapon or a bow, you can't two-weapon fight.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Does the two-handed weapon attack subsume an off-hand attack, because it uses an additional actual hand, or an additional metaphorical hand of effort?

since it is using both actual hands it uses both metaphorical hands of effort.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You are still saying that a Bow counts as a two-handed weapon, but only in regards to this FAQ.

You are also saying that the off-hand, is a real hand.

I say both of those assumptions, are debatable.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Does the two-handed weapon attack subsume an off-hand attack, because it uses an additional actual hand, or an additional metaphorical hand of effort?
since it is using both actual hands it uses both metaphorical hands of effort.

Why?


Elbedor wrote:
If an Unarmed Strike is defined as a punch, kick, or headbutt, then why can't I just employ a kick or headbutt as my unarmed strike when TWF'ing with a Bow?

If an Unarmed Strike is defined as a punch, kick, or headbutt, then why can't I just employ a kick or headbutt as my unarmed strike when TWF'ing with a Greatsword?

If an Unarmed Strike is defined as a punch, kick, or headbutt, then why can't I just employ a kick or headbutt as my unarmed strike when TWF'ing with a Longsword wielded with two hands?

Because the FAQ made it a rule that you can't.


It doesn't matter why they made the FAQ it's still been made and is a rules source now. Yes SKR told us the idea behind why they did it, but that idea behind why they did it isn't a rule. That why doesn't change what the FAQ says and affects.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

You are still saying that a Bow counts as a two-handed weapon, but only in regards to this FAQ.

You are also saying that the off-hand, is a real hand.

I say both of those assumptions, are debatable.

NO I'VE NEVER SAID THAT A BOW COUNTS AS A TWO-HANDED WEAPON!!!

Neither do I assume that the off-hand is a real hand. How am I assuming that? Please don't put words in my mouth. You can't tell me what I'm saying, you can tell me how you're understanding what I'm saying. But don't say that I'm saying something that I didn't. That is lying.

I have said many times that it never counts as a two-handed weapon.
A bow uses two hands to use. A THW uses two hands to use. So if you're wielding either it's using two hands. The FAQ says since you are using both hands to wield the weapon you can not TWF.

But still to you BBT,
Can you two-weapon fight with a longsword wielded two hands and armor spikes? why or why not?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Does the two-handed weapon attack subsume an off-hand attack, because it uses an additional actual hand, or an additional metaphorical hand of effort?
since it is using both actual hands it uses both metaphorical hands of effort.
Why?

I want you to know that I feel you're not interested in "why" this is the case. That you are only trying to cause trouble. But in the hopes that you are honestly trying to understand I shall explain.

A standard two armed race has two metaphorical hands or MHs for attacks. Anything that makes an attack and doesn't specify it's an exception (like the beard attack) uses 1 or more MHs, this is why kicking uses a "hand" because it's using 1 MH. This is why you can't punch/punch/kick/kick/headbutt lv1 using Multi-weapon fighting. And all hands used in using a weapon to attack also use up a MH per hand used. This is why a two-handed weapon takes two MHs. This is why you can not use TWF with a THW, both your hands were used to use the weapon to attack so both MHs are used. This is also why a [Bow] or [Longsword using two hands] attack uses up both MHs.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:


Can you two-weapon fight with a longsword wielded two hands and armor spikes? why or why not?

No.

As noted in the linked SKR post, such a combination breaks the unwritten rule, that you cannot gain more than x1.5 strength to damage.

Now, SKR goes on to note how this unwritten limitation can be surpassed, but your example is one of the examples he gave.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


Can you two-weapon fight with a longsword wielded two hands and armor spikes? why or why not?

No.

As noted in the linked SKR post, such a combination breaks the unwritten rule, that you cannot gain more than x1.5 strength to damage.

Now, SKR goes on to note how this unwritten limitation can be surpassed, but your example is one of the examples he gave.

Thank you.

Now not using SKR's post or any unwritten rules, since I've said that those don't count or matter,
Can you two-weapon fight with a longsword wielded two hands and armor spikes according to the FAQ? why or why not?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:


Now not using SKR's post or any unwritten rules, since I've said that those don't count or matter,
Can you two-weapon fight with a longsword wielded two hands and armor spikes according to the FAQ? why or why not?

Not known, unless you know why it makes your off-hand unavailable.

Sczarni

I have a hard time understanding how some of you guys/gals can sit there and chastise Durngrun for his position, when Durngrun is the only person in this thread that has shown rules that support his position.

I'm not referring to what you guys are calling "personal attacks" or rude posts; those are separate issues to the matter at hand.

Without referring to current FAQ's, FAQ's from previous editions, or any other FAQ, the CRB is pretty darn clear that you cannot TWF with a two-handed weapon and UAS. Admittedly you need to compile the rules from various parts of the CRB and read them as a whole - but they're there.

Please, show me this "grey area" you speak of. Because I don't see it.

I don't think this needs a FAQ, but if you feel it does I am willing to listen to your argument, so far none has been made; school me!

Cheers,

D


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


Now not using SKR's post or any unwritten rules, since I've said that those don't count or matter,
Can you two-weapon fight with a longsword wielded two hands and armor spikes according to the FAQ? why or why not?
Not known, unless you know why it makes your off-hand unavailable.

FAQ:
, as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks.

So to you, the FAQ is unclear about two-weapon fighting with a one-handed weapon wielded two hands and armor spikes? Why do you feel it is not known by the FAQ? What about this example and the FAQ's example is different enough to make it unclear?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I don't have to argue for the FAQ to cover One-handed weapons wielded in two hands.

I already know the answer. You can't.

Now, if the Bow is not a two-handed weapon, covered by the FAQ, and it is not an One-handed weapon used in two-hands, covered by the unwritten rules noted by SKR, then what is the restriction?

Wielding a Bow does not require two hands, as nobody constantly holds a Bow, with two hands. It requires two hands to use.

This means a PC with Snap Shot, could use either a Bow attack, or a Gauntlet attack, for an AoO.

Either way, that here nor there.

It has been explained why an attack with a two-handed weapon, or one-handed weapon, makes your off-hand unavailable. The metaphorical hand, that is required to make an off-hand attack, is subsumed, by the extra effort used, represented in the additional x0.5 to damage.

This why you can wield a Longsword, and wield a Shield, then make an attack with your Longsword, and an off-hand attack with an unarmed strike.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I don't have to argue for the FAQ to cover One-handed weapons wielded in two hands.

I already know the answer. You can't.

Now, if the Bow is not a two-handed weapon, covered by the FAQ, and it is not an One-handed weapon used in two-hands, covered by the unwritten rules noted by SKR, then what is the restriction?

Wielding a Bow does not require two hands, as nobody constantly holds a Bow, with two hands. It requires two hands to use.

This means a PC with Snap Shot, could use either a Bow attack, or a Gauntlet attack, for an AoO.

Either way, that here nor there.

It has been explained why an attack with a two-handed weapon, or one-handed weapon, makes your off-hand unavailable. The metaphorical hand, that is required to make an off-hand attack, is subsumed, by the extra effort used, represented in the additional x0.5 to damage.

This why you can wield a Longsword, and wield a Shield, then make an attack with your Longsword, and an off-hand attack with an unarmed strike.

Look just because you "know" an answer doesn't invalidate the question. You need to stop going off of this "unwritten" rule you cling to. The extra .5 str isn't a representation of the extra effort. It's the mechanical rule following for using two hands with those weapons. If you really want to hold on to it, the "off-hand" is subsumed in the "effort" it takes to get your 1x str to travel potentially 1000ft.

Also holding a bow is not wielding a bow. You may hold a bow, but if you're attacking with it you are wielding it with two hands. Just like a THW, you could release your grip to free up a hand to make AoO with your gauntlet.

But okay that's getting besides the point, why do you say the FAQ only covers two-handed weapons?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

It only references two-handed weapons. Full stop.


So, using just the wording of the FAQ. Why does using the two-handed weapon make the off-hand unavailable to make any attacks


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BBT has it correctly. The FAQ is talking about 2-H weapons (and inferring 1-H weapons wielded with two hands). A Bow is neither of these.

You require 2 hands to operate a Bow, but you do not get 1.5x your Str bonus to it and it is impossible to operate the Bow by keeping both of your hands on it at all times. One hand holds it while the other pulls arrow, loads arrow, draws string, and releases all as part of the attack action. In fact your hand MUST release the string. If it doesn't, then you don't fire the weapon properly. By it's nature of operation, you are left with a free hand at the end of the attack sequence.

It is certainly viable to assume that, after releasing the string, your hand is free to add a punch to your attack sequence. The best way to do this is via the TWF rules.

Plus TWF with a Bow and unarmed strike does not violate the "1.5x Str max" unwritten rule. You're getting 1x Str from the Bow and .5x Str from the unarmed strike.

Sczarni

So the foundation of this claim is that a Longbow is a one-handed weapon? Where does it say that?


Elbedor wrote:

BBT has it correctly. The FAQ is talking about 2-H weapons (and inferring 1-H weapons wielded with two hands). A Bow is neither of these.

You require 2 hands to operate a Bow, but you do not get 1.5x your Str bonus to it and it is impossible to operate the Bow by keeping both of your hands on it at all times. One hand holds it while the other pulls arrow, loads arrow, draws string, and releases all as part of the attack action.

It is certainly viable to assume that, after releasing the string, your hand is free to add a punch to your attack sequence. The best way to do this is via the TWF rules.

Plus TWF with a Bow and unarmed strike does not violate the "1.5x Str max" unwritten rule. You're getting 1x Str from the Bow and .5x Str from the unarmed strike.

Who cares about some "unwritten rule" if it's not a rule it's not a rule. SKR said that they have an "unwritten rule" to make their decisions but it's not a rule for us so it doesn't matter if it "breaks" it or not.

Why do you say the FAQ is only for THW? What part of the wording of the FAQ causes the use of a two-handed weapon make the off-hand unavailable to make any attacks


Krodjin wrote:
So the foundation of this claim is that a Longbow is a one-handed weapon? Where does it say that?

No the foundation for their claim is that a Longbow is a no handed ranged weapon that takes two hands to use but it doesn't use your two hands so you can still punch. That since the example in the FAQ was a THW that the FAQ was only for THW. And that if a combo doesn't break some "unwritten rule" then it's okay to do that combo.

I feel that this accurately sums up their stance.


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Krodjin wrote:
So the foundation of this claim is that a Longbow is a one-handed weapon? Where does it say that?

That's not the foundation precisely. The foundation is that "bows" do not have a handedness at all, because they are ranged weapons. There are rules that talk about their operation, but that has absolutely nothing to do with handedness with regards to two-weapon fighting and therefore off-hands. Note that the term "off-hand" appears no where in the rules UNLESS you are specifically taking about TWF. And TWF rules have no restriction against using ranged weapons. Some ranged weapons specifically get called out as "light for the purposes of determining penalties of two-weapon fighting," but that would only imply that other ranged weapons are not considered "light." And that's fine. You can TWF with whatever weapons you want, except those specifically banned by the TWF/THW FAQ.

EDIT: The non-evidentiary confirmation of this is that the proposed combination DOES NOT exceed the 1.5x STR per iterative sequence soft cap that SKR discusses in his rationale of the THW/TWF FAQ.

Sczarni

Elbedor wrote:

You require 2 hands to operate a Bow, but you do not get 1.5x your Str bonus to it and it is impossible to operate the Bow by keeping both of your hands on it at all times.

By claiming that a bow is not a two handed weapon because it doesn't receive 1.5x STR to damage is either a misunderstanding of the rules, or you're begging the question.

The actual rules from the PRD/CRB regarding the 1.5 x STR modifier is specific to melee attacks/melee combat;

PRD wrote:

One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character's Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Projectile weapons follow their own set of rules; as further outlined in their description. A bow requires 2 hands to wield. If you're not using two hands to wield your bow, you're not wielding your bow. If you're not wielding your bow, you're free to TWF with Unarmed Strikes - but you cannot do both.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Chess Pwn wrote:


Who cares about some "unwritten rule" if it's not a rule it's not a rule. SKR said that they have an "unwritten rule" to make their decisions but it's not a rule for us so it doesn't matter if it "breaks" it or not.

Why do you say the FAQ is only for THW? What part of the wording of the FAQ causes the use of a two-handed weapon make the off-hand unavailable to make any attacks

1) The unwritten rules are the entire base of the of the FAQ. I wish we didn't have to care.

2A) It specifically note two-handed weapons, and two-handed weapons only.

2B) That's exactly what I asked. It is vital to determining whether it applies here. For now, we only have unwritten rules.


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Yes Krodjin, you are correct that projectile weapons follow their own set of rules apart from melee weapons. That has been BBT's argument from the beginning. :p


Elbedor wrote:
Yes Krodjin, you are correct that projectile weapons follow their own set of rules apart from melee weapons. That has been BBT's argument from the beginning. :p

Indeed, this is exactly the point.

Sczarni

Then by all means please post these rules that would make it legal to TWF with a bow and UAS - because none of the rules I've found even imply that this would be legal.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Krodjin wrote:
Then by all means please post these rules that would make it legal to TWF with a bow and UAS - because none of the rules I've found even imply that this would be legal.

None of the rules imply that it would not be legal either.

Your response is the same as saying "prove that a you can two-weapon fight with a Dagger and an unarmed strike!".

The rules don't go in to specifics, about that specific combination.

Instead, we have the two weapon fighting rules, that the combination of a Dagger and an unarmed strike, would fall under, even though it isn't specifically stated.


prd wrote:

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

In this case, the second weapon is your IUS.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:


Who cares about some "unwritten rule" if it's not a rule it's not a rule. SKR said that they have an "unwritten rule" to make their decisions but it's not a rule for us so it doesn't matter if it "breaks" it or not.

Why do you say the FAQ is only for THW? What part of the wording of the FAQ causes the use of a two-handed weapon make the off-hand unavailable to make any attacks

1) The unwritten rules are the entire base of the of the FAQ. I wish we didn't have to care.

2A) It specifically note two-handed weapons, and two-handed weapons only.

2B) That's exactly what I asked. It is vital to determining whether it applies here. For now, we only have unwritten rules.

1) Just because SKR shared the reasoning behind why the FAQ was made doesn't mean it's a rule in the books. RAI is not always what RAW is. Saying, here's why we did it isn't a rule. That is the intentions. by the rules you're free to get 5x str as long as you don't break other rules. They didn't like how easy it was to get 2x str this way so they made a rule to stop it. We don't have to care about an unwritten rule, but we do need to care about the FAQ as it is a rule.

2) Yes in the example used it only mentions THWs very good. Now he's a line of text.
"as you are using both of your hands to wield your two-handed weapon, therefore your off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks."

Now lets break the sentence down. so you have a THW. okay what are we doing with it? Answer is we are "using both of 'our' hands to wield" Okay so since we are "using both of 'our' hands to wield" the THW, what happens? What is the consequence of this? Answer is "'our' off-hand is unavailable to make any attacks." So the FAQ is saying that "you are using two hand to wield, therefor you don't have an off-hand.

Now does that make sense or do you still have questions about what this FAQ is doing?


requires both hands to use != using both hands to wield.

edit: And actually, "using both hand to wield" is factually incorrect about the bow. That's not how a bow works.

Sczarni

An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence... Having said that I'm shocked that you would pull out the "but it doesn't say I can't" argument... I've been on these boards long enough, and followed enough of your threads BBT to know that you have a sharp and creative mind - this argument is beneath you my friend.

PRD wrote:
Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it's a specially built composite shortbow or longbow, or a sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he uses a bow or a sling.
PRD wrote:

Longbow: At almost 5 feet in height, a longbow is made up of one solid piece of carefully curved wood. You need two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. A longbow is too unwieldy to use while you are mounted. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a longbow. If you have a Strength bonus, you can apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow (see below), but not when you use a regular longbow.

Longbow, Composite: You need at least two hands to use a bow, regardless of its size. You can use a composite longbow while mounted. All composite bows are made with a particular strength rating (that is, each requires a minimum Strength modifier to use with proficiency). If your Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the composite bow, you can't effectively use it, so you take a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default composite longbow requires a Strength modifier of +0 or higher to use with proficiency. A composite longbow can be made with a high strength rating to take advantage of an above-average Strength score; this feature allows you to add your Strength bonus to damage, up to the maximum bonus indicated for the bow. Each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost. If you have a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when you use a composite longbow.

For purposes of Weapon Proficiency and similar feats, a composite longbow is treated as if it were a longbow.

Seems too black & white - so what am I missing?


Krodjin, you are missing that the bow is just occupying your hands, not subsuming your "off-hand" Just as if you were holding a shield. Your hand your be full but you could still make an unarmed strike.

EDIT: Also, BBT isn't saying "it doesn't say I can't." Why does everyone feel the need to attack BBT directly?

What BBT is saying is that Two-weapon fighting is a thing in the game. Two-weapon fighting says I can two weapon fight. I choose to two weapon fight with a Bow and IUS.

That's it. He has gone to rules, found the rule that allows his action and has completed that action. YOU are saying that he must have BETTER rules to do what he wants. That "yes you can" isn't good enough, it has to say "yes you can on Sunday after 9 with a full moon and a cat watching you?" That is unreasonable to expect from a rule set.

Sczarni

BigDTBone wrote:
prd wrote:

Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

In this case, the second weapon is your IUS.

This assumes you have an off-hand; using a 2-handed weapon precludes you having an off-hand.

Bows are designated as 2 handed weapons and require 2 hands to use

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Okay, it boils down to:

Does the FAQ cover just two-handed weapons, or any weapon that requires two hands to use?


Krodjin wrote:

Bows are designated as 2 handed weapons and require 2 hands to use

You make 2 statements here.

"Bows are designated as 2 handed weapons"

Where? You need to show the rules where is says "Bows count as two-handed weapons for the purposes of x,y,z"

And "Bows require 2 hands to use."

I agree, but that doesn't mean anything in game terms relating to handedness or "off-hands." It simply means your hand (actual) is occupied.

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