|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So... I'm new, and I realize that I need to choose a weapon for my strength 7 sorcerer. I've seen a lot of the guides rate Acid Splash as a rotten cantrip, and I've seen recommendations for sorcerers hauling around a crossbow for the first three levels.
The thing is, I can't see why. The crossbow does 1d8, but it's heavy and you can likely only fire it once in a combat.
The acid splash spell with an acid flask does 1d3+1, and you can cast it over and over. What am I missing here?
Hmm
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why could you only fire it once per combat? A light crossbow is a standard to fire and a move to reload IIRC. If you are in a position to stand still, you could shoot and reload each round. If you have to move, use your second "move" to reload and it's ready to go next round.
That said, I like Acid Splash because it targets touch AC so you have a much better chance of actually hitting and, as you said, it isn't something you have to carry around with your puny Str. Maybe you and I are overlooking the same thing about the benefits of the xbow *shrug*
Depending on your bloodline, you may already have a short-ranged touch attack ability. Using a cantrip-known for acid splash may be redundant.
As Drogos said, range. A light crossbow can potentially hit up to 800' away at a penalty (-18, but hey, you can dream right? Get a wand of True Strike and become a superhuman sniper :P), or 80' away with no penalty.
So... I'm new, and I realize that I need to choose a weapon for my strength 7 sorcerer. I've seen a lot of the guides rate Acid Splash as a rotten cantrip, and I've seen recommendations for sorcerers hauling around a crossbow for the first three levels.
The thing is, I can't see why. The crossbow does 1d8, but it's heavy and you can likely only fire it once in a combat.
The acid splash spell with an acid flask does 1d3+1, and you can cast it over and over. What am I missing here?
Hmm
As a Sorcerer, you're likely to do a fair bit of blasting... if your are thinking of using ray and other ranged touch attack spells consider:
Point-Blank Shot - it adds an additional +1 to hit and damage within 30' (the range of your attack Cantrips for your first few levels) and it opens the way for Precise Shot which is useful when you need to shoot something that has decided to close to melee with one of your friends.
With Point-Blank Shot and an acid flask, your doing 1d3+2(average 4) and kicking it out every round.
Also, don't forget that Acid Splash is a touch attack and a crossbow isn't. That said, if you can acquire a crossbow for cheap, by all means carry one for backup. The 25-30' range on Acid Splash/Ray of Frost has been driving my Wizard nuts in my RotRL game.
Even if you're small sized and you're firing a 1d8 heavy crossbow, it can still be useful. Fire it once at the start of battle, then drop it and use acid splash.
also expensive for 1st level characters. It was awesome to loot crossbows at early levels for treasure. If you plan on using acid flasks for each acid splash, you're also well off at early levels. I'd use acid splash and pick up a crossbow when one is available as loot. (Probably a light crossbow as well, not heavy). Have fun and stay away from shadows!
|
So... I'm new, and I realize that I need to choose a weapon for my strength 7 sorcerer. I've seen a lot of the guides rate Acid Splash as a rotten cantrip, and I've seen recommendations for sorcerers hauling around a crossbow for the first three levels.
The thing is, I can't see why. The crossbow does 1d8, but it's heavy and you can likely only fire it once in a combat.
The acid splash spell with an acid flask does 1d3+1, and you can cast it over and over. What am I missing here?
Hmm
Acid splash.
You are not strong enough to carry a crossbow + ammunition in addition to your clothing without becoming encumbered.
|
|
Why could you only fire it once per combat? A light crossbow is a standard to fire and a move to reload IIRC. If you are in a position to stand still, you could shoot and reload each round. If you have to move, use your second "move" to reload and it's ready to go next round.
That said, I like Acid Splash because it targets touch AC so you have a much better chance of actually hitting and, as you said, it isn't something you have to carry around with your puny Str. Maybe you and I are overlooking the same thing about the benefits of the xbow *shrug*
I didn't realize that it was that easy to reload. I may have to reconsider my stance on crossbows when I have more cash.
Range. Range at lvl 1 of acid splash is 25 feet. 1st range increment on xbow is 80 ft.
Plus Sorcerers still have a limit on known spells. At first you know 4 0-level spells. Now granted there aren't a huge amount of super useful 0-level spells, but Detect Magic is pretty much your job, Read Magic forgoes a Spellcraft check to read scrolls, and Light is pretty critical on a non-Darkvision sorcerer and just pretty darn handy in general. So there's 3 of your slots, so do you get Acid Splash with that 4th slot? You could, but you give up Disrupt Undead or Daze or Prestidigitation or Mage Hand or... I think you get the point. It's largely an opportunity cost. I mean, yeah, you eventually get 9 different ones and can train out of ones that are less than useful at later levels. But at first you only have 4, and every spell choice is precious.
For advice to what to get on your Sorceror, I'd say a spiked gauntlet (so you always threaten and still have open hands to cast) and either a xbow or sling. Sling saves you 5 pounds, but only does 1d3-2 damage. Crossbow does the full 1d8 and has better range.
All good points. I was planning on trading out the acid splash at fourth level. I'm doing a paired build for PFS with my boyfriend who is going cleric. He decided to take the Detect Magic and the Spellcraft, which freed up a 0 level spell for Prestidigitation. I'm planning to pick up Mage Hand on Level 2.
also expensive for 1st level characters. It was awesome to loot crossbows at early levels for treasure. If you plan on using acid flasks for each acid splash, you're also well off at early levels. I'd use acid splash and pick up a crossbow when one is available as loot. (Probably a light crossbow as well, not heavy). Have fun and stay away from shadows!
The acid flask is a non-consumable focus. I'm not rich (this is for PFS) but I can afford one acid flask that I can use over and over again.
Hmm
|
|
As a Sorcerer, you're likely to do a fair bit of blasting... if your are thinking of using ray and other ranged touch attack spells consider:
Point-Blank Shot - it adds an additional +1 to hit and damage within 30' (the range of your attack Cantrips for your first few levels) and it opens the way for Precise Shot which is useful when you need to shoot something that has decided to close to melee with one of your friends.
With Point-Blank Shot and an acid flask, your doing 1d3+2(average 4) and kicking it out every round.
Also, don't forget that Acid Splash is a touch attack and a crossbow isn't. That said, if you can acquire a crossbow for cheap, by all means carry one for backup. The 25-30' range on Acid Splash/Ray of Frost has been driving my Wizard nuts in my RotRL game.
I should mention here that I'm going sylvan sorcerer with an animal companion. I may pick up a blast spell at some point, but it won't be my specialty. I think that I am going to do more buffs (those that can be used on Pumpkin the tiger as well as other party members) and battle field control (grease) than blasts. Maybe even do a summons or two later on.
Besides, Pumpkin has already taken my first level feat and my bonus feat (I'm human) with "Boon Companion" and "Eye for Talent." So as tempting as this would be, I can't pick it up. I might put it in consideration for later if I pick up a blasting spell later that I really like, but I didn't see anything great for blasts in the first two spell levels.
Hmm
|
|
Depending on your bloodline, you may already have a short-ranged touch attack ability. Using a cantrip-known for acid splash may be redundant.
As Drogos said, range. A light crossbow can potentially hit up to 800' away at a penalty (-18, but hey, you can dream right? Get a wand of True Strike and become a superhuman sniper :P), or 80' away with no penalty.
Actually, I do have a short-ranged attack ability. His name is Pumpkin the tiger. Animal companion is both the Bloodline Arcana and the 1st level Bloodline Power for Sylvan Sorcerers.
I just feel like I, personally, should have some sort of weapon too...
Hmm
|
|
Plus Sorcerers still have a limit on known spells. At first you know 4 0-level spells. Now granted there aren't a huge amount of super useful 0-level spells, but Detect Magic is pretty much your job, Read Magic forgoes a Spellcraft check to read scrolls, and Light is pretty critical on a non-Darkvision sorcerer and just pretty darn handy in general. So there's 3 of your slots, so do you get Acid Splash with that 4th slot? You could, but you give up Disrupt Undead or Daze or Prestidigitation or Mage Hand or... I think you get the point. It's largely an opportunity cost. I mean, yeah, you eventually get 9 different ones and can train out of ones that are less than useful at later levels. But at first you only have 4, and every spell choice is precious.
One more thought on this. I just realized that I'm human, and am taking the favored class bonus at each level. This means I start at 5 cantrips known at level 1, I'll have 7 at level 2, and 8 at level 3.
This will give me a little more leeway. Also, I'm playing PFS, so at the end of level 1, I could trade out that acid splash before going to level 2.
Given all those facts, what would you recommend I do for starter spells? As I said earlier, my character's husband the cleric will be taking "Detect Magic" early on.
For advice to what to get on your Sorceror, I'd say a spiked gauntlet (so you always threaten and still have open hands to cast).
Bret (my partner taking the cleric) also suggested this. Maybe I'll do that instead of the crossbow to start.
Hmm
|
|
Acid splash.You are not strong enough to carry a crossbow + ammunition in addition to your clothing without becoming encumbered.
Weight is the big thing that worries me about the crossbow. Even with a strong battlefield cleric and a tiger who might be able to carry some of my stuff, I'm shying away from the crossbow due the weight.
Hmm
Strength 7 is 23 lbs for light encumbrance, 26 with a masterwork backpack.
She has to leave behind (or have my character carry) the 10 lb training harness for Pumpkin. By doing so she sneaks in under light encumbrance with a whole .5 lbs to spare. Light crossbow is 4 lbs, another .1 lbs for bolts -- back to medium encumbrance. We could fit it in, but it would take a bit more re-arranging.
I haven't seen that much long range combat in PFS play. Plenty of times where I had to move in so as to be within 25', but not much for ranges of 60' or better. This could be just a matter of the scenarios that I've played though, I really don't know.
|
|
Strength 7 is 23 lbs for light encumbrance, 26 with a masterwork backpack.
She has to leave behind (or have my character carry) the 10 lb training harness for Pumpkin. By doing so she sneaks in under light encumbrance with a whole .5 lbs to spare. Light crossbow is 4 lbs, another .1 lbs for bolts -- back to medium encumbrance. We could fit it in, but it would take a bit more re-arranging.
I haven't seen that much long range combat in PFS play. Plenty of times where I had to move in so as to be within 25', but not much for ranges of 60' or better. This could be just a matter of the scenarios that I've played though, I really don't know.
The spiked gauntlet is 1 pound, putting me back in encumbrance! It's also 5 gp, which I am not sure that my character has after buying the leather barding for Pumpkin... Still, maybe we could rearrange.
I think that we're going with acid splash as my main personal weapon, with the hope that you and Pumpkin can keep the big bads away...
God, my character is a wimp right now.
Hmm
What else are you carrying that weight 22.5 lbs? I can't think of anything a sorcerer really needs at level 1 that weighs anything.
You don't need armor, so there goes a good chunk of weight.
We're discussing your weapon choice, so that's not it.
You don't need a spell component pouch, although that's only like .5 lbs.
Combat Gear acid (2); Other Gear dagger, backpack, masterwork, bedroll, belt pouch, blanket, candle (10), chalk (10), dandy brush, flint and steel, wooden holy symbol (Shelyn), ink, black, inkpen, mug/tankard, signal whistle, spell component pouch, training harness, waterskin, whet bone
Things that are significant that could be moved around:
Spell Component Pouch -- we were not certain if it is needed, 2 lbs
whet bone, 2 lbs
training harness, 10 lbs
bedroll, 5 lbs
masterwork backpack, 4 lbs
dandy brush, 2 lbs
dagger, 1 lb can easily be swapped for spiked gauntlet, 1 lb.
Thanks for the suggestion, Drogos.
Saddlebags / Pack Saddle could be a consideration.
Str 13 tiger, 50 lbs x 1.5 because it is a medium quadruped is 75 lbs at light encumbrance.
Anything past that and it would require the Work trick. My understanding is that trick is not required for light loads.
Saddlebags are 4 gp, pack saddle for exotic are 15gp. Either are easily affordable by ditching the masterwork backpack.
|
|
Thanks for the suggestion, Drogos.
Saddlebags / Pack Saddle could be a consideration.
Str 13 tiger, 50 lbs x 1.5 because it is a medium quadruped is 75 lbs at light encumbrance.
Anything past that and it would require the Work trick. My understanding is that trick is not required for light loads.
Saddlebags are 4 gp, pack saddle for exotic are 15gp. Either are easily affordable by ditching the masterwork backpack.
So Pumpkin can help carry my gear? Yay! Go, Pumpkin!
Are we sure that sorcerers don't need spell component pouches? Some of the spells I cast call for foci not material components... If I could ditch the pouch, great.
Hmm
|
|
Okay... The Saddlebags were a game changer when I started calculating costs and encumbrance and such.
They freed up weight. They freed up cash. They freed up the option of the crossbow, oddly enough. Which means that after all of this discussion, I may drop the Acid Splash cantrip after all and just go with the cross bow (in order to get more cantrip flexibility, early.)
If I didn't have Pumpkin the tiger, I would have definitely stayed with the acid splash in lieu of the crossbow and just traded out the cantrip later.
This has been an interesting conversation, weighing all the pros and cons, and I really want to thank everyone who has contributed to it. It's given much to think about.
Hmm
Unless you took an archetype that trades out eschew materials, you don't need a spell component pouch. If a spell requires materials with a listed gold cost, you need to buy those. But this doesn't require a spell component pouch either. And foci are different than material components.
As for a weapon, may I suggest a longspear.
You don't want to actually attack with it. Instead you want to use the Aid Another action to try to help Pumpkin the Tiger score hits. Since a longspear is a reach weapon you can stand behind pumpkin while using it. Your chance to hit will be pretty bad, but you only have to hit an AC 10 to use aid another, and this will grant Pumpkin either a +2 on his next to-hit roll or a +2 to his AC (your choice).
The problem with both acid splash and any ranged weapon is that once your enemies are in melee with your friends you will not only get a -4 penalty to hit because they are in melee but you will almost always also get a -4 to hit because they have cover (provided by your friend who is in the way). The sorcerer in my party tries to use acid splash a lot but almost never hits.
Because the crossbow can hit targets a long way away it is worth getting. The range of acid splash is so short that most of the time that an enemy is in range he is also in melee with someone in your party.
If you want a cantrip to attack with I suggest daze. Though it only works on humanoids, it is a pretty effective save or suck at low levels, assuming your save DC is decent. And you don't need to roll to hit.
BTW a masterwork backpack is a waste for a low STR character trying to keep to a light load. It increases your effective STR by 1 but it weighs 4 pounds instead of 2, which eliminates most of the advantage for using it. You want to give the masterwork backpack to the half-orc fighter with 18 STR. It does way more for him. Then get him to carry your stuff.
Peet
So... I'm new, and I realize that I need to choose a weapon for my strength 7 sorcerer. I've seen a lot of the guides rate Acid Splash as a rotten cantrip, and I've seen recommendations for sorcerers hauling around a crossbow for the first three levels.
The thing is, I can't see why. The crossbow does 1d8, but it's heavy and you can likely only fire it once in a combat.
The acid splash spell with an acid flask does 1d3+1, and you can cast it over and over. What am I missing here?
Hmm
Heavy Crossbow Description: "Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity." In other words, you can only fire every other round unless you use a feat that is not helpful to the sorcerer class.
Normal non-specced Acid Splash (1-3 damage: Average damage per 2 rounds 4)
Dual-Blooded Sorcerer (Draconic/Orc (acid)): Acid Splash = 1d3+2 acid damage (3-5 damage: Average damage per 2 rounds 8)
Light Crossbow 1d6 (1-6: Average damage per 2 rounds 7)
Heavy Crossbow 1d8 (1-8: Average damage per 2 rounds 4.5)
Acid Splash hits touch AC // Crossbow hits normal AC.
Acid Splash is only better than a Light Crossbow if the sorcerer is specced for damage. Heavy Crossbows are worse than Light Crossbows.
Light Crossbows have increased range - which helps defeating enemies trying to run away (remember, you can shoot as far as 10x range increments (ranged/throwing weapons only) at a -18 to hit (nat 20s always hit)
|
So... I'm new, and I realize that I need to choose a weapon for my strength 7 sorcerer. I've seen a lot of the guides rate Acid Splash as a rotten cantrip, and I've seen recommendations for sorcerers hauling around a crossbow for the first three levels.
The thing is, I can't see why. The crossbow does 1d8, but it's heavy and you can likely only fire it once in a combat.
The acid splash spell with an acid flask does 1d3+1, and you can cast it over and over. What am I missing here?
Hmm
Heavy Crossbow Description: "Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity." In other words, you can only fire every other round unless you use a feat that is not helpful to the sorcerer class.
Normal non-specced Acid Splash (1-3 damage: Average damage per 2 rounds 4)
Dual-Blooded Sorcerer (Draconic/Orc (acid)): Acid Splash = 1d3+2 acid damage (3-5 damage: Average damage per 2 rounds 8)
Light Crossbow 1d6 (1-6: Average damage per 2 rounds 7)
Heavy Crossbow 1d8 (1-8: Average damage per 2 rounds 4.5)Acid Splash hits touch AC // Crossbow hits normal AC.
Acid Splash is only better than a Light Crossbow if the sorcerer is specced for damage. Heavy Crossbows are worse than Light Crossbows.
Light Crossbows have increased range - which helps defeating enemies trying to run away (remember, you can shoot as far as 10x range increments (ranged/throwing weapons only) at a -18 to hit (nat 20s always hit)
She's playing a Human. The crossbow damage dice you cite are for small creatures. Medium Light Crossbows do indeed do 1d8. Heavy do 1d10.
Also Hmm, you do need a spell component pouch if you cast any spell with a Focus component. Bear in mind that Material and Focus components are two distinctly different things and Eschew Materials only saves you the need of Material components. A hard line DM (and there are way too many in PFS in my experience) won't let you just have a bunch of random Foci written on your inventory sheet because "they aren't listed in the equipment price list so they aren't valid purchases."
I wasn't clear if Bretl was listing your gear or his. If it is yours, why do you have a Holy Symbol? Only divine casters can substitute a Holy Symbol as a Divine Focus instead of a Focus for most spells. Arcane casters can not.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The wooden holy symbol of Shelyn is there for roleplaying flavor only. His character converted mine to Shelyn. We both wear the symbol. And let's face it, it's a pretty symbol. A girl's gotta have some jewelry...
Hmm
PS *I* would totally wear the Shelyn symbol as a pin. Hear that, Paizo?