They made a bard spell that gives trap finding? for minutes per level? That'll last most dungeons. Kinda ridiculous :P
It won't last most dungeons. I dunno if I've ever been in a dungeon that I could complete in less than 20 minutes.
But it lasts plenty long enough.
I don't play PFS.
I don't play PFS.Fair enough, I find it a more useful baseline than the home games I play in however, seeing as how that pretty much turns into personal preference
Out of all things, I considered PFS to be the least relevant to pathfinder as a whole.
Has a long list of house rules, no item crafting, an emphasis on early levels instead of mid-levels where most of the game is, Wide acceptance of non-PRD material which many GMs do not allow, illegal to be evil or even too morally grey, GMs in PFS have to follow special rules.
The list goes on and on.
And there shoudl not be such change. Because to balance the game the first to do is to tone down full casters.Do tell what change that has been suggested for Fighters, like say 4+Int base skills, a common enough one, or giving the Rogue a mechanic to boost their accuracy or more reliable bonus damage is going to put those classes on the same standing as Mister "Summon a horde of a celestial superbeings". I haven't seen any such suggestions, but I suppose they might exist.Uh, no change that I (or anyone who understands the balance of the system) has ever been enough to put the sub-par classes on par with the truly powerful classes (full casters).Well, I disagree.
Please look through DSP psions. That's the kind of rebalance casters could stand to have. Straight nerfs won't make the mundanes more fun.
I don't play PFS.Fair enough, I find it a more useful baseline than the home games I play in however, seeing as how that pretty much turns into personal preference
I don't. PFS is just one large home game with standardized houserules.
I play APs, though, and there are very few actual dungeons you can finish in less than a few minutes (remember, that 20 minutes is only at 20th level. Well, 18th or 19th at earliest).
But, IMHO, what mundane needs is more options not just cosmic power (At the level of infinite wishes and create demiplane). Or at least that Is what I would like.
The introduction of Martial Flexibility is a versatility enhancer that has not been fully explored. It's definitely a step in the right direction. Such a thing existing puts those martials on a similar power creep curve as casters. It doesn't matter how situational the feat is, as long as it isn't locked behind a stupidly long feat chain, these martials have situational access to it. So that means as more and more feats come out these martials get stronger and stronger. Where before they stayed in place because their feats were static and stronger feats were few.
But, IMHO, what mundane needs is more options not just cosmic power (At the level of infinite wishes and create demiplane). Or at least that Is what I would like.The introduction of Martial Flexibility is a versatility enhancer that has not been fully explored. It's definitely a step in the right direction. Such a thing existing puts those martials on a similar power creep curve as casters. It doesn't matter how situational the feat is, as long as it isn't locked behind a stupidly long feat chain, these martials have situational access to it. So that means as more and more feats come out these martials get stronger and stronger. Where before they stayed in place because their feats were static and stronger feats were few.It does not put martial on the same power level of full caster, because, IMHO again, full caster have just too many broken things.
Quickened wish into a quickened Geas to (with no save) control almost whatever enemy is just one example.
No, but Martial Flexibility is a step in the right direction, but more towards Clerics/Druids than towards Wizards.
I say Clerics/Druids (CoD), because with every book that comes out in which CoD's get spells, they become even more powerful. Unlike any other caster, CoD's know all their spells, they just have to re-prepare each day. Each day can have an entirely different spread of spells than the day before. Hell, they could probably go a week without ever preparing the same spell twice, because of all the books out there now.
The Brawler has a similar, but lesser, potential. Every book that includes feats is a potential power increase for the Brawler as he gains more and more options. I just think Martial Flexibility is just too limited though. I would almost say the Brawler should be able to have daily feats, ones he can change each day, and then he can use Martial Flexibility to gain other feats for a short time.
I kind of hope, in a hypothetical Pathfinder 2.0, that such a theme is adopted for a Fighter class, that is if they keep the Fighter as the 'feat guy'.
I kind of hope, in a hypothetical Pathfinder 2.0, that such a theme is adopted for a Fighter class, that is if they keep the Fighter as the 'feat guy'.
Well they do get a martial flexibility archetype, and it is compatible with a to-hit boosting archetype.
No floating daily feats though.
Balance is very important for the overall health of a game. It's no fun being useless and there's many many opportunities in Pathfinder to become useless. I'd rather have everyone be useful then cater to a hypothetical player who enjoys being useless or enjoys being overpowered. And I think everyone agrees. Except the hypothetical person. But I've never met a hypothetical before.I have played a lot of RPGs over the years, and balance did not exist in any of them as anything more than an illusion. In any system that allows choices, some choices will be better than others--sometimes much better--even if which options are better is determined by situational variants (such as campaign style in an RPG).
Further, balance is not necessiraly as desirable as some people seem to think it is. In the harsh reality of game design, the trade-off for adding balance is usually a reduction of uniqueness because the more varity of options used, the harder it becomes to balance all of those options.
As to the uselessness of certain classes. Almost every Pathfinder or D&D game that I have ever played in has included a Figher and/or a Rogue, and I have never heard a player in any of those games complain that they felt useless. I know that my experience may not be the same as yours, but it is just as valid; and there should be rules to support both of our playstyles.
I've played many classes and I find they all have their points when I feel useless. It's not an issue. I mean I feel useless in dungeon of traps when only the rogue in the party is disarming them.
Caster-Martial disparity does exist in favor of casters...at higher levels. Casters, however, pretty much suck at low levels. They're essentially Magicarp.
I'm playing in a game right now where I'm a full orc brawler. There is a wizard in our party. In two fights she's done more or less 4 damage, where I have done like 30. Sure, she could drop a colorspray or two, but it's an all-or-nothing spell, and if the enemy makes their save it's a waste of a slot, a waste of an action, and a waste of getting dangerously close to the enemy when you're a very squishy person. Not only that but it's a severely limited option. Nobody I know prepares colorspray as ALL their slots, so let's assume maybe 2 slots are prepared there. Two enemies can be taken out of the fight a day if you get lucky. A martial, at low levels, can take out a lot more than that in a given day, especially with decent ac.
You earn your way into power as a caster.
Now if you play a game that starts off at 15th level, I could easily see nobody wanting to play a martial...
I also notice that most people disregard where these class-nullifying traits and feats and stuff come from. Certain splat books and whatnot are intended to be used within a certain context of type of adventure, not just to be tossed into any campaign. Like, ok a small one. That one feat from that chelaxian book that says when you hit on an attack, you get a free intimidate check. Small thing but still, context. Are you playing a game in cheliax? Does your character have that special chelaxian training to do that? There may not be written requirement listed but still, come on. Then again some people say there should be no restrictions on anything, from race only to class only or whatever but then I say go play a freeform game not a class game and stop trying to turn pathfinder into a freeform.
This is a excellent point. For example, our DM would not allow Blood Money until we found that spellbook in RotRL.
I also notice that most people disregard where these class-nullifying traits and feats and stuff come from. Certain splat books and whatnot are intended to be used within a certain context of type of adventure, not just to be tossed into any campaign. Like, ok a small one. That one feat from that chelaxian book that says when you hit on an attack, you get a free intimidate check. Small thing but still, context. Are you playing a game in cheliax? Does your character have that special chelaxian training to do that? There may not be written requirement listed but still, come on. Then again some people say there should be no restrictions on anything, from race only to class only or whatever but then I say go play a freeform game not a class game and stop trying to turn pathfinder into a freeform.
I very much so disagree with this. Just because an option came out in a region, or racial book, does not mean it is restricted to that region or that race.
In fact, there are such options in the game. Like Halfing only feats, or Andoran only feats. If the feat isn't restricted in such a manner, then it's not restricted at all. It may be more common in the region, but that doesn't mean it isn't found elsewhere.
I mean, consider the what happens if you have an Ambassador of Cheliax move to Varisia to more closely deal with the Kovosan royal family. He's probably going to bring Cheliaxian guards, and servants and similar along with him. Some of those guards might know how to perform Cornugon Smash and teach it to offspring he has with a local Varisian lass, or citizens of Korvosa who support Cheliax. Now you have people from a place other than Cheliax who know the feat.
Other things to consider is those with Hellknight training. Cornugon Smash is a feat that closely ties with Hellknights heavy-handed tactics of intimidation. If you think that a Hellknight from Varisia isn't going to know Cornugon Smash just because he's not from Cheliax, you've got another thing coming.
If an option isn't specifically tied to a region through requirements, then it's not restricted at all. If your GM requires a roleplaying scenario before learning anything not in the CRB, then you probably just need to find someone from Cheliax, or associated with Cheliax to teach you; Hellknights being a strong possibility.
Caster-Martial disparity does exist in favor of casters...at higher levels. Casters, however, pretty much suck at low levels.
Now if you play a game that starts off at 15th level, I could easily see nobody wanting to play a martial...
This is exactly the point I have made. I find martials rule levels 1-4, spellcasters 17+. More playing is done levels 1-4 than 17+, in my experience. I can see it being 15th level. So far we're 13th level and our Fighter is the most dangerous member of the party.
Now, that being said- once spellcasters get those 9th level spells- well, at least in our 3.5 games, the martial might as well stay home and whittle. Shapechange, etc makes him obsolete.
I also notice that most people disregard where these class-nullifying traits and feats and stuff come from. Certain splat books and whatnot are intended to be used within a certain context of type of adventure, not just to be tossed into any campaign. Like, ok a small one. That one feat from that chelaxian book that says when you hit on an attack, you get a free intimidate check. Small thing but still, context. Are you playing a game in cheliax? Does your character have that special chelaxian training to do that? There may not be written requirement listed but still, come on. Then again some people say there should be no restrictions on anything, from race only to class only or whatever but then I say go play a freeform game not a class game and stop trying to turn pathfinder into a freeform.
As a GM, I only blanket allow the PRD.
The rogue is still very much obsolete, and even in a vacuum can has trouble being relevant. Paizo recently replaced the rogue with the investigator and slayer.
Spellcasters are fine 1-4, but don't dominate as hard.
Once 3rd level spells come into play, however, they start getting more and more powerful, gaining options that martials can't replicate.
I am saying that if you don't have any contextual reason to know this special thing from a certain area, then no you can't just take it out of the blue.
Says who?
Why is hitting somebody really hard and then going "Ooga booga" some esoteric f#!$ing skill only elite whatsits from some random place can figure out how to do?
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Spellcasters are fine 1-4, but don't dominate as hard.
Once 3rd level spells come into play, however, they start getting more and more powerful, gaining options that martials can't replicate.
Look, I know a game where everybody can teleport 3 squares when they hit the enemy, everybody can heal themselves magically and everybody can use the same rituals like raise dead or some other crazy bat guano stuff. The core books are out of print, but I do have a pristine copy which I never used, could part with for a cheap price. I have a feeling reading these would be more productive for you than obsessively pursuing the goal of somebody officially re-writing the game to your design :)
Look, I know a game where everybody can teleport 3 squares when they hit the enemy, everybody can heal themselves magically and everybody can use the same rituals like raise dead or some other crazy bat guano stuff. The core books are out of print, but I do have a pristine copy which I never used, could part with for a cheap price. I have a feeling reading these would be more productive for you than obsessively pursuing the goal of somebody officially re-writing the game to your design :)Spellcasters are fine 1-4, but don't dominate as hard.
Once 3rd level spells come into play, however, they start getting more and more powerful, gaining options that martials can't replicate.
You should really work on your posts. No intelligent mind falls for the 4e bait anymore.
Tels, do you not realize that in all those examples you gave, you added context that fits what I was talking about? I am saying that if you don't have any contextual reason to know this special thing from a certain area, then no you can't just take it out of the blue. You gave examples of people that could take it rather than taking it out of the blue with no explanation. You didn't actually counter anything I said. You played right into the things I said like having the training logically rather than just scanning the books or SRD and writing it down without explaining it to the GM or group or whatever.
It's a requires a rather constricted imagination if you believe only chelaxians have mastered this incredible art of scaring someone after they hit them.
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Look, I know a game where everybody can teleport 3 squares when they hit the enemy, everybody can heal themselves magically and everybody can use the same rituals like raise dead or some other crazy bat guano stuff. The core books are out of print, but I do have a pristine copy which I never used, could part with for a cheap price. I have a feeling reading these would be more productive for you than obsessively pursuing the goal of somebody officially re-writing the game to your design :)Spellcasters are fine 1-4, but don't dominate as hard.
Once 3rd level spells come into play, however, they start getting more and more powerful, gaining options that martials can't replicate.
You can like part of a game without liking all of it. Stating dissatisfaction with certain parts does not mean I need the game to be re-written to my exact specification, but it does mean that these are things I believe are flaws in the design, and I'm not the only one who thinks so, so maybe it might be worth it for Paizo to consider remedying some of these problems.
Yes, we get it, you're incapable of spouting nothing but praise for the game, and take offense to anyone who's not 100% completely satisfied with every facet of its design. Your objection is noted, and I continue to not give a shit.
Tels, do you not realize that in all those examples you gave, you added context that fits what I was talking about? I am saying that if you don't have any contextual reason to know this special thing from a certain area, then no you can't just take it out of the blue. You gave examples of people that could take it rather than taking it out of the blue with no explanation. You didn't actually counter anything I said. You played right into the things I said like having the training logically rather than just scanning the books or SRD and writing it down without explaining it to the GM or group or whatever.
DrDeth, did you work on AD&D 2nd at all? It was the first roleplaying game I ever played and never had a chance to try any incarnation previous to it.
Actually, what I did was give context for why the feat is no longer limited to Cheliax. Just because it's printed in a Cheliax book doesn't mean it can only be found there. There is no timeline on how long that feat has been in existence, so it's entirely possible the feat is widespread and used by people around the world that have zero affiliation with Cheliax.
I did give specific Cheliax examples, and gave a method of a GM limiting it if he wants to be an asshat, but that's not what I said over-all. I said that if the feat doesn't carry a restriction, then it's not restricted. Seems kind of obvious to me. You insist on putting arbitrary restrictions on them based on the book they come out in.
I mean, by that logic, only people who work for the Pathfinder Society can use agile weapons, because it came out in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide.
Or how about only Pathfinders can be Lore Wardens because it too came out in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide. So only Pathfinders know how to be intelligent fighters, everyone else is just too stupid to know how to do it.
That is what you posted, that a player needs to be associated with the subject of a book, to use options from it. By that logic, I've got a duelist character that was trained by Pathfinders while adventuring int he desert and learning from Saraenite Dervishes, traveled to the Jade Regent, and lived in Cheliax for a short time. Because I've drawn options from different books to make a 'nimble fighter/duelist' character.
That sounds like an interesting character, Tels, that I would like to learn more about. Good job on having your character's abilities reflect in his history and story.
You need to work on your reading comprehension a bit. I said, that, by your logic of the options in a book being tied to the subject of the book and only those affiliated with that subject may take said options, then my character is a Pathfinder Society trained nimble warrior who has studied with Kelish Dervishes of Sarenrae that has learned from masters of the Jade Regent while also having studied in Cheliax.
The reason this is so is because she's drawn from options that exist in multiple books to work. Lore Warden, Dervish Dance, Cornugon Smash and Quain Martial Artist all exist in separate books with specific themes.
Lore Warden exists in Pathfinder Society Field Guide, so by your logic, only Pathfinder Society members can be Lore Wardens.
Dervish Dance is a feat that is tied to the Empire of Kelish and the church of Saranrae, so only Kelish Sarenites know the feat and/or can teach it, by your logic.
Cornugon Smash is from Cheliax: Empire of Devils, so by your logic, you have to have lived there to learn it.
She's got the trait Quain Martial Artist, which simply gives +1 to damage on unarmed attacks, but came out in Dragon Empires Primer, so she also has to be from the Jade Regent or been there.
Again, by your logic this is the only way such a character can exist. But that's not true, and it's now how it works. None of the options are restricted to 'only members of this nation may learn it' or something like that. Unlike feats such as 'Sable Company Marine' that appears in the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide which specifies that you must graduate from the Endrin Military Academy, which is located in Korvosa. So that feat means only members of the Endrin Military Academy may bond with a Hippogriff as their Ranger animal companion. Sable Company Marine is a feat that is specifically tied to a certain region, even a certain school and certain class, so it wouldn't make sense for people in other regions to have it.
Cornugon Smash, however, has no such restriction, so it could be found anywhere.
I guess some people don't understand subtleties in text. My reading comprehension is fine. not my fault you didn't really try to understand what I was saying. But I am done arguing with this. If you wish to continue, please pay 2 pounds for five minutes or 15 for a course of 8 sessions of arguments.
Or you could try not forcing your non-standard houserules down our throats as if it were 'correct' way to play the game.
But, then again, I guess you can never be wrong can you?
