Swashbuckler: Let's Modify It, Shall We

[ElementalXX]

If you make precise strike a flat untyped bonus you can easily compare it to a smite evil, more importatly:

At will Cavalier Challenge= Balanced?

[Whisperknives]

Googleshng wrote:

Whisperknives wrote:

Lord Vukodlak wrote:

Fnipernackle wrote:

I like changing precise strike to deal standard damage, but would allowing it to be multiplied on a crit be a little too much? I'm also not sure about losing the light armor proficiency.

It probably would be, I think it be best to change precise strike to dex to damage(up to their level) and remove that feature from slashing grace. Make dexterity to melee damage their ability. The up to their level bit is to discourage dipping.

All that would do would lower their damage, everyone playing a swashbuckler is going to get it one way or another anyway.

Slashing Grace, Agile weapon, or Fencing Grace when it is in print.

However I would be ok with that if they gave up the idea of not being able to attack with anything in the other hand.

You don't need to modify the class to do that. The only feature swashbucklers have which insists on them using a one-handed weapon and an empty off-hand is Slashing Grace, and all it does is offset the damage you lose by doing so. It is a zero-sum enabler of a theme-y option, which is no better or worse than what you'd have if you just pretended you didn't get the ability. Well, aside from the whole bit about being denied your extra crit damage, which makes it an inferior option.

It is great at low levels but past level 10, the offhand damage could easily eclipse the level to damage bonus of Precise Strike,

Not only that but more chances to crit, with very crit easy weapons, and if by some chance a game makes it to level 20, all those threats on a 15 or better auto confirm.

2 weapons with weapon training, dex/str to damage, and whatever other bonuses you throw at it will be much better than level to damage, that does not even multiply on a crit.

Past level 10, and that is being generous, you would be better off dual wielding and just using the Precise Strike ability like a half-assed vital strike.

Depending on your build I am not sure that Precise Strike will ever out damage TWF.

[Deadmanwalking]

Googleshng wrote:

You don't need to modify the class to do that. The only feature swashbucklers have which insists on them using a one-handed weapon and an empty off-hand is Slashing Grace, and all it does is offset the damage you lose by doing so. It is a zero-sum enabler of a theme-y option, which is no better or worse than what you'd have if you just pretended you didn't get the ability. Well, aside from the whole bit about being denied your extra crit damage, which makes it an inferior option.

Uh...Slashing Grace has no such restriction on off-hand stuff. Precise Strike has one on not wielding a weapon in your off hand, but nothing forces Swashbucklers to skip their buckler.

[Googleshng]

ElementalXX wrote:

If you make precise strike a flat untyped bonus you can easily compare it to a smite evil, more importatly:

At will Cavalier Challenge= Balanced?

Here's the math again.

Looking at these numbers another way, if you want to compare the precise strike progression to a smiting paladin, by level 16, the swashbuckler would need to have a strength of 26 to beat the average strength of a paladin with a strength of 18, without power attack on the table. With power attack, the swashbuckler needs a 34. If the paladin is actually pushing strength, getting a nice fat 34, the swashbuckler would need a 58.

The numbers come down a fair bit if you throw Swashbuckler weapon training into the mix, but again, people severely underestimate how much damage you leave on the table with just a one-handed weapon.

[Cyrad]

Swashbucklers need mobility? Let's give them Mobility. As a bonus feat.

Pun aside, I'm serious. Mobility has always been that dirty feat that's used as a feat tax for pretty much every awesome mobile maneuver feat that comes out. Instead of getting the Nimble class feature, give them Dodge at 3rd level, maybe even Mobility, too. Suddenly, the swashbuckler has easy access to a lot of really thematic feats, such as Sidestep, Spring Attack, Combat Patrol, and Wind Stance.

Also kind of a shame the swashbuckler doesn't get the duelist's deflect arrows ability.

[KatsuraTsuruya]

Dotting this; I'm not really in the brainspace to offer thoughts at the moment, but I am very passionate about Swashbuckler and very interested in how this thread progresses.

[Atarlost]

There are three major issues with the Swashbuckler.

They have per diem abilities on a class where the primary mechanic ebbs and flows over the course of the day. Panache says they're a long day class. They need to not run out of saving throws after a couple fights. Especially when they need to compensate for having the worst save set outside of commoner. If the swashbuckler is going to be locked into the short day paradigm by his defenses he needs offense on the same paradigm with nova to match the barbarian and paladin. The last thing the game needs is more nova classes. This requires either better saves (I favor ref/wil for the same reason I want that on rogues) or for charmed life to be divine grace under another name.

They don't have proper florentine or buckler fencing support. TWF just doesn't work, the off hand weapon is used primarily for defense, not attack in florentine fencing. Two Weapon Defense is a pitiful joke. D&D bucklers do not represent real bucklers and this needed to be fixed or accounted for. The closest approximation currently is the light shield as the smallest shield that can be used for bashing, though real bucklers are center grip shields that occupy the hand completely. This requires a two weapon defense feat or class ability that (a) scales similarly to a shield and (b) is not part of the TWF chain and the allowance of light shields as well as "bucklers." Fortunately Precise Strike does appear to work if you have an off-hand weapon you aren't attacking with unless pfsrd miscopied it.

Piercing weapons don't get dex to damage in core materials and I don't think the short sword and dueling cane ever do. There is also no reason to exclude stick fighters from using the class, particularly since a number of such styles are derived from the same sword schools the class purports to represent. The class should be damage type agnostic as should the dex to damage feat provided in the same book, or dex to damage should be a class feature. It's not like there are any light or one handed bludgeoning weapons that are more powerful than their slashing peers when you have blanket martial proficiency.

[Petty Alchemy]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

My basic suggestion is to replace Charmed Life with the following ability (also called Charmed Life):

Charmed Life: At 2nd level the Swashbuckler may add her Charisma modifier as a permanent bonus to one of the following options:

The Swashbuckler's Fortitude Save.
The Swashbuckler's Reflex Save.
The Swashbuckler's Will Save.
The Swashbuckler's Initiative.
All Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, and Swim checks that the Swashbuckler makes.
The Swashbuckler's combat maneuver bonus for one type of maneuver and her CMD to defend against that maneuver.
The number of attacks of opportunity the Swashbuckler can make per turn. This bonus stacks with Combat Reflexes.

At 6th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the Swashbuckler may add their Charisma modifier to another one of the options presented.

The Mysterious Avenger archetype receives another instance of this ability at 4th level instead of 3 uses of the official version of Charmed Life. Racial Favored Class options that currently add +1/4 of a use of the official version of Charmed Life will instead add +1/6 of a new instance of this version of Charmed Life.

This version is actually really good, and I think solves most of the problems with the class all by itself.

Popping in to say A+

[Deadmanwalking]

Petty Alchemy wrote:

Popping in to say A+

Thanks!

Always glad to hear people like my solutions. :)

[Deadmanwalking]

Okay! Additional solution time. Here's a Feat for enhanced mobility:

Mobile Combatant (Combat, Panache)
You have mastered the art of moving during combat and can dance between opponents while attacking them as easily as if you and they were both standing still.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +10, and the Amateur Swashbuckler Feat or the panache class feature.

Benefit: As long as you have at least one Panache you can move up to your speed and make a full attack action without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attacks, but not between them, and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed.

If you spend one point of panache, you may move between the attacks you make, though you may still not exceed your movement speed.

Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack, nor can you move and make a full attack action.

So...that looks pretty good to me. It's better than Pounce, but it also has more prerequisites than the things that give Pounce (especially for non-Swashbucklers), and doesn't give either the bonuses or penalties of a charge.

How does that look to everyone?

[yeti1069]

ElementalXX wrote:

1. Make Charmed life a free action usable out of your turn, actually make all of inmidate/swiftaction abilities this way

2. Should keep light armor proficiency, no reason nor temathically nor for balance (higher dex is not higher AC), high dex swashbuckler wont be using armor anyway
3. Should get dex to damage at level 5 for one weapon, like the gunslinger, when using only one weapon
4. The two weapon option should be an archetype, and it should lose something important to balance
5. I think is ok as precision, combined with dex to damage it would be way to strong. It would be like permanent smite evil, actually more powerful
6. The deeds are pretty good BUT change the order of some. Mostly deed should be less and scale, for example

Evasive (Ex): At 15th level, when the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains the benefit of the evasion, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge rogue class features. She uses her gunslinger level as her rogue level for improved uncanny dodge.

to

Evasive (Ex): At 5th level, when the gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she gains the benefit of the evasion
At 10, uncanny dodge
At 15,improved uncanny dodge rogue class features.
She uses her gunslinger level as her rogue level for improved uncanny dodge.

I'm basically in favor of all of the above, with some tweaks.

I think I'd prefer simply adding Cha as a bonus to Will saves vs. certain effects (similar to the feat that does this in the ACG), along with a good Fort save.

I'd think that for Evasive, Uncanny Dodge should come first, as that seems the most swashbucklery to me. Maybe Evasion at 10, Improved Uncanny at 15.

[yeti1069]

I'd also include:

-A Deed around level 6-9 that allows the Swashbuckler to spend 1 Panache to move 10 feet with a 5-foot step.

-The Rapid Attack ability from the Mobile Fighter archetype as a standard class feature at level 11.

-A Deed that allows the Swashbuckler to make one turn while charging so long as they have at least 1 Panache remaining, and allows them to spend 1 Panache to charge over difficult terrain and obstacles, and allows them to combine the charge action with a list of specific circumstances including balancing on a narrow surface, swinging from something, jumping).

-Consider granting Cha to AC, stacking with light armor (or not).