I'd add Dazzling Display, for some builds. It opens up all the performance feats, Shatter Defenses, DS, Violent Display... it's versatile.
Yes! Except. To get that you need Weapon Focus. So I decided to put that down instead because the post was getting pretty long. You could stop at Weapon Focus, especially if there might be a lot of things immune to fear in your campaign, and pick up Dazzling with yoga. If your build is going to rely on it, though, those'll be your first two picks anyways.
Sample Build for fighter archetype
My list of combos with that in mind.
MF combos [PRD only]
5:
Move(1)- Blind-Fight, Lunge(at 6), Catch Off-Guard, Deadly Aim, Improved Maneuver(except grapple), Stand Still, Step Up, Cleave, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Improved Unarmed Strike(until 12), Rapid Reload, Throw Anything, Point Blank Shot, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus, Bloody Assault, Bodyguard, Enforcer, Furious Focus, Gang Up, Saving Sheild, Shield of Swings, Swift Aid, Coordinated Defense, Coordinated Maneuvers, Outflank, Paired Opportunist, Precise Strike, Shield Wall, Swap Places, Amateur Gunslinger, Bludgeoner, Death from Above, Defensive Weapon Training, Distance Thrower, Flanking Foil, Hammer the Gap, Opening Volley, Performance Weapon Mastery, Pin Down(at 11), Prone Slinger, Two-Handed Thrower, Deflect Arrows(at 12), Critical Effect feats(at 10), Strike Back(at 11), Combat Patrol(at 14), Dazing Assault(at 11), Shadow Strike(not useful), Side Step(at 14), Stunning Assault(at 16), Deadly Finish(at 11)
9:
Move(2)- Any two Move(1), Greater Maneuver(except grapple), Cleave+Great Cleave, IUS+Deflect Arrows(until 12), Bludgeoner+Enforcer, Improved Trip+Felling Smash, EWP+Net Adept, IUS+Improved Grapple, WF+Prone Shooter, EWP(firearms)+Rapid Reload, Point Blank Shot+Precise Shot, PBS+Rapid Shot, WF+Stage Combatant, WF+Whip Mastery, Disruptive+Spellbreaker(at 10), Mobility+Spring Attack, Improvised Weapon Mastery, SF+Greater Shield Focus, WF+Dazzling Display, WF+Greater Weapon Focus, WF+Weapon Specialization, WF+Penetrating Strike(at 12), Bodyguard+In Harm’s Way, IBR+Bull Rush Strike, IO+Charge Through, Mobility+Combat Patrol, SF+Covering Defense, ID+Disarming Strike, Improved Critical+Critical Effect Feats, Step Up+Following Step, Gang Up+Team Up, Blind-Fight+Improved Blind-Fight(at 10), Improved Trip+Ki Throw, SF+Missile Shield, SC+Improved Second Chance, SF+Shield Specialization, Mobility+Side Step(until 14), IS+Sundering Strike, IG+Body Shield, PBS+Charging Hurler, IG+Chokehold, WF+Close Quarters Thrower,
Swift(1)- Any Move(1),Second Chance, Death from Above, Death or Glory, Vicious Stomp,
14:
Move(3)- Any three Move(1), Any Move(2)+Any Move(1), Close Quarters Thrower+WF+False Opening, WF+WS+Impaling Critical, EWP+Net Adept+Net Maneuvering, IG+GG+Pinning Knockout, IG+GG+Pinning Rend, IG+GG+Rapid Grappler, WF+Stage Combatant+Enforcer, Improved Trip+Greater Trip+Vicious Stomp, WF+WM+Improved Whip Mastery, WF+DD+Dramatic Display, WF+DD+Hero’s Display, WF+DD+Savage Display, Boar Style+Boar Ferocity+Boar Shred, Crane Style+Crane Wing+Crane Riposte, Snapping Turtle Style+IG+Snapping Turtle Clutch, Tiger Style+Tiger Claws+Tiger Pounce, Critical Master+Two effect feats, Spring Attack+Wind Stance+Lightning Stance(with 17 dex), Scorpion Style+Gorgon’s Fist+Medusa’s Wrath, WF+DD+Shatter Defenses, WF+Weapon Specialization+Greater Weapon Focus, WF+PS+Greater Penetrating Strike(at 16), WF+WS+Greater Weapon Specialization, PBS+Rapid Fire+Deadly Aim, Step Up+Following Step+Step Up and Strike, BF+IBF+Greater Blind Fight(at 15), WF+WS+Point Blank Master, IR+Repositioning Strike, SF+SS+Greater Shield Specialization, Disruptive+Spell Breaker+Teleport Tactician, PBS+PS+Clustered Shots,
Swift(2)- Any Move(2), Any two Move(1), Improved Trip+Drag Down, Spring Attack+Whirlwind Attack
Free(1)- Any Move(1), Landing Roll,
17:
Swift(3)- Any Move(3), Any Swift(2)+Any Swift(1), VS+IVS+Greater Vital Strike, SF+MS+Ray Shield(at 20), Spell Breaker+Teleport Tactician+Step Up(at 20)
Immediate(1)-Any Free(1), Fortified Armor Training, Vicious Stomp
Anyway to make that a bit more palatable to my eyes?
Anyway to make that a bit more palatable to my eyes?
Not without using a lot of space.
Turns out that access to any feat ever is a lot of material, and that is just looking at the CRB, APG, and Ultimate Combat.
EDIT: There was also a lot of feats that this particular fighter did not qualify for, so they weren't listed.
Anyway to make that a bit more palatable to my eyes?Not without using a lot of space.
Turns out that access to any feat ever is a lot of material, and that is just looking at the CRB, APG, and Ultimate Combat.
EDIT: There was also a lot of feats that this particular fighter did not qualify for, so they weren't listed.
Could do a Google Docs and a link if space here is a concern.
Could do a Google Docs and a link if space here is a concern.Anyway to make that a bit more palatable to my eyes?Not without using a lot of space.
Turns out that access to any feat ever is a lot of material, and that is just looking at the CRB, APG, and Ultimate Combat.
EDIT: There was also a lot of feats that this particular fighter did not qualify for, so they weren't listed.
There is a link and it is better organized there. Not perfectly spaced out though.
Yeah, I'll agree that Power Attack and Combat Expertise will cover most general bases. I think noting that Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Improved Grapple, and to a certain extent Two-Weapon Fighting (for Shield Champ.) are all roots is good though. As long as you pick two you're well on your way to doing what you want to do, just have to think about it ahead of time. The more of these you have the more flexible you'll be, but all of that flexibility will probably come at the price of raw power unless someone with far better theorycrafting/optimizing skills than me comes along and throws out some monstrous build. And I do agree that Critical Focus is a waste for the Brawler. Unless you're working really, really hard to maximize the output of Pummeling Style's crazy critical thing, you'll get more mileage out of other feats at that level. Other classes, like you said, can do the thing too. Besides, if you want effects on your crits just dip into Monk and start slapping dudes around with your Stunning Fist, or take the new (oddly-worded) feats that let you add daze, staggered, etc. to unarmed attacks.
For those of you at home, or if it's four years from now and people still care, here are the feats you'll want to take as "root" feats, unless there are new hoverboard feat options:
Power Attack: This'll be your damage output center, and it's pretty much always useful. I shouldn't really need to explain this to you, and can't without being condescending, but this is what unlocks all of those more offensive, brute-force Improved [Combat Maneuver]s, like Bull Rush or Sunder. You can safely skip this if you're doing a more Dexterity-based build or one that just doesn't have the room, but I'd recommend taking it anyways.
Combat Expertise: The poster child for feat taxes, luckily as a Brawler you basically get to bypass the Int requirement with no hard feelings. This is the opposite of Power Attack in terms of use, but you really won't be using it unless you're desperate. Instead, this unlocks the more...
So this may sound dumb, but is Power Attack really a mandatory feat? If you're a straight Brawler you are already taken a penalty on your to hit by flurrying. If you're a Shield Champion your feats may get stretched too think to take Weapon's Focus, especially if you want to be able to punch stuff as well as do shield stuff.
I sort of feel like using a Cestus with Improved Critical or Keen and Pummeling Style is a better core to work with for damage. You've got something like an 80% chance to double your entire damage output and don't suffer any greater chance of missing. Power Attack can stack on top of that if you feel you need it. You can grab it with Yoga in those situations too-- when you aren't worried about missing and just need to pour on the damage.
Maybe I am underestimating Power Attack though, or overestimating the accuracy penalty. I do know playing Captain Aldoran takes a lot of feats if you want to punch things AND do cool shield stuff, so I am looking for ways to cut back. My DM has allowed a bit of leeway on feat taxes, so this is what I'm currently looking at for my level 8 build:
Improved Bullrush
Improved Trip
Pummeling Style
Pummeling Bully
Improved Shield Bash
Shield Slam
Improved Critical (Cestus)
Extra Flexibility
At 9 I would pick up Shield Focus to nab the Greater Shield Focus.
Power Attack is primarily [almost] required because it 1) adds damage at the price of to-hit, which is easier to come by, 2) scales, so isn't a dead feat after four levels, 3) for many groups it unlocks the Improved Bull Rush, Sunder, etc. line of feats, 4) it's the prerequisite for a lot of feats, so picking it up saves your flexibility uses, and 5) it allows you to burn down mooks that are easy to hit quickly and mitigate the attrition factor.
It's one of those things that really should just be an inherent part of the combat system, but because it isn't it's a very useful feat for builds that just want to maximize their DPR. It's especially effective with multiple attacks, and since you get flurry and will have a high strength it's going to add up quickly. Thinking of it another way, adding 2 damage is like effectively increasing your strength by 4, at the cost of only -1 to hit. Shield Champion is a different story, though, as with any build that has very specific feat requirements.
For the most part, though, Power Attack is something I'd have to recommend. It's there when you need it and doesn't hurt you at all when you don't. Captain Andoran is in a funky spot, where I think until a certain level (around 9, maybe 11) a lot of your Martial Flexibility will probably be grabbing the same feat or two just to extend your reach. The archetype doesn't get enough, or any, free feats to help mitigate those TWF and Shield Focus-line feat taxes. Which is a bummer. Some free bonus feats with prereqs ignored would've been nice.
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Power Attack is primarily [almost] required because it 1) adds damage at the price of to-hit, which is easier to come by, 2) scales, so isn't a dead feat after four levels, 3) for many groups it unlocks the Improved Bull Rush, Sunder, etc. line of feats, 4) it's the prerequisite for a lot of feats, so picking it up saves your flexibility uses, and 5) it allows you to burn down mooks that are easy to hit quickly and mitigate the attrition factor.
Bit of an inquiry here, would the Brawler not run into the Monk's accuracy problem with Power Attack? I mean, at levels 1-7 its probably fine, since its only -1 or 2, but when it gets to -4 or 5 or 6, it might start weighing heavily on your accuracy, since the Brawler, like the Monk, has no inherent bonuses to attack in-class, but does have an inherent penalty(Flurry). Not sure if this is a problem or just me worrying too much(I do have a level 5 Brawler who hasn't really seen the problem much), but what does the brawler have over the monk in terms of accuracy? Greater Weapon Focus? SteelBreaker obviously helps alleviate this penalty, with a free +2 at the cost of a swift action(not too bad, considering the other benefit/options of Exploit Weakness).
Bit of an inquiry here, would the Brawler not run into the Monk's accuracy problem with Power Attack? I mean, at levels 1-7 its probably fine, since its only -1 or 2, but when it gets to -4 or 5 or 6, it might start weighing heavily on your accuracy, since the Brawler, like the Monk, has no inherent bonuses to attack in-class, but does have an inherent penalty(Flurry). Not sure if this is a problem or just me worrying too much(I do have a level 5 Brawler who hasn't really seen the problem much), but what does the brawler have over the monk in terms of accuracy? Greater Weapon Focus? SteelBreaker obviously helps alleviate this penalty, with a free +2 at the cost of a swift action(not too bad, considering the other benefit/options of Exploit Weakness).
Full Bab for a start.
Then fighter feats so yes weapon focus and friends help.
Martial Flexibility may be able to fetch you more accuracy if you know what to look for.
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Bit of an inquiry here, would the Brawler not run into the Monk's accuracy problem with Power Attack? I mean, at levels 1-7 its probably fine, since its only -1 or 2, but when it gets to -4 or 5 or 6, it might start weighing heavily on your accuracy, since the Brawler, like the Monk, has no inherent bonuses to attack in-class, but does have an inherent penalty(Flurry). Not sure if this is a problem or just me worrying too much(I do have a level 5 Brawler who hasn't really seen the problem much), but what does the brawler have over the monk in terms of accuracy? Greater Weapon Focus? SteelBreaker obviously helps alleviate this penalty, with a free +2 at the cost of a swift action(not too bad, considering the other benefit/options of Exploit Weakness).Full Bab for a start.
Then fighter feats so yes weapon focus and friends help.
Martial Flexibility may be able to fetch you more accuracy if you know what to look for.
Well, playing Devil's Advocate, Monks have full BAB most of the time too(more with the amazing pummeling charge), and Greater Weapon Focus is really the only direct accuracy boost with a fighter-only prerequisite, so only really a 1 there. Martial Flexibility definitely helps in some cases, though there is the question of if its wise to rely on it with its lowish number of charges/day.
Monks have full BAB most of the time too(more with the amazing pummeling charge),
They only have full bab when they flurry.
That's not most of the time.
The means 3/4 bab on:
AoO's
Charges (except in cases of full attack as noted)
Single standard action attacks.
CMB (but not CMD)
There is no condition on the brawler's full bab. It simply is.
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Monks have full BAB most of the time too(more with the amazing pummeling charge),They only have full bab when they flurry.
That's not most of the time.
The means 3/4 bab on:
AoO's
Charges (except in cases of full attack as noted)
Single standard action attacks.
CMB (but not CMD)There is no condition on the brawler's full bab. It simply is.
I'm not arguing that Full BAB is not completely, utterly better than pseudo-full BAB, but I wills say that by "most of the time", I meant "in the majority of a martial's actions in combat(full attack usually, save some of the Vital Strike builds)". Pummeling Charge makes this even more true, since it means monks can now pounce with 2 easy feats.
Still, counting it up, I suppose its not too hard to gain +4-6 on attack rolls w/Martial Flexibility combos and WF/Greater. Thanks for the help.
CMB (but not CMD)
This is backwards. Monks use their level for CMB. Monks also add both wis mod and monk armor bonus to CMD, so that tends to be very high.
Right. Part of why Power Attack is so good is that you don't have to use it. If you're having trouble hitting you can stop using it, but it's there if you want. The other part is that, like you said @EvilPaladin, stacking up to-hit is much, much easier than stacking up damage. Which makes sense. With Martial Flexibility, though, you're open to a lot of very situational ways to increase your to-hit. It also means you can swing a big sword or something if you have proficiency and do good damage. The game's designed to reward high damage output slightly over a great ability to hit.
For example, would most level 8 players take a +22 to hit and a +17 to damage, or a +17 to hit and a +22 to damage? Almost overwhelmingly you'd find people take the slightly lower hit for the higher damage. A wounded monster is a monster that's still just as capable of ripping you a new one; a dead monster is dead, and maybe a zombie or a new purse.
You convinced me, for whatever that's worth. If for no other reason than Improving your bull rush is so bonkers on a shield champion, power attack is worth taking.
So, not to keep harping on the shield champion, but how do you guys feel about dips for her? The standard Brawler works great wit ha MoMS dip, but the Shield Champion doesn't just do the straight unarmed thing nearly as well and feats that can't apply to both punches and the shield seem questionable.
When my Captain Aldoran was a Fighter (Brawler), a single dip in Monk (Maneuver Master) cost me one point of BAB, a hit point or two, and slowed my fighter progression. In exchange I got:
+2 to all saves
A ton of new class skills
A free Maneuver as part of every full attack
The ability to substitute any maneuver in as part of a full attack
Access to some maneuver feats which bypasses prereqs
Free Improved Unarmed Strike, and ability to do lethal and non-lethal at no penalty.
As a Fighter, Close Combatant boosted my to hit and damage by quite a bit, and giving up the point of BAB easily seemed worth it. I got a lot of mileage out of the Maneuvers. But Brawler's Flurry can already miss plenty as is. I already get Improved Unarmed Strike and most of the Monk class skills. Better saves is appealing, and a two level dip also nets me evasion. But the Brawler seems to have better class features than the fighter and I'm worried about slowing it down.
What do you guys think? Is there a better class to multi-class with for the Shield Champion than Monk? Or is it just one that should stay in it's class?
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So here's the thing with styles... it seems to me that the massive crit potential of Pummeling just makes any other style kind of moot. Do you guys disagree with that?
As far as the RAW, it definitely does. They will likely errata to just Unarmed/Close Weapons. RAI, it clearly was meant for Unarmed and/or Close Weapons.
Right now, if GMs actually let it work by the RAW, it's by far the best Style for Meleers. Two Feats and you have Pounce with 1 Crit for All.
So here's the thing with styles... it seems to me that the massive crit potential of Pummeling just makes any other style kind of moot. Do you guys disagree with that?As far as the RAW, it definitely does. They will likely errata to just Unarmed/Close Weapons. RAI, it clearly was meant for Unarmed and/or Close Weapons.
Right now, if GMs actually let it work by the RAW, it's by far the best Style for Meleers. Two Feats and you have Pounce with 1 Crit for All.
Even just using a Cestus (and frankly I think I am going to ignore anyone who says you can't pummel with a Cestus) with Improved Critical is going to be huge for damage. I wasn't even getting into using non-punching weapons.
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Even just using a Cestus (and frankly I think I am going to ignore anyone who says you can't pummel with a Cestus) with Improved Critical is going to be huge for damage. I wasn't even getting into using non-punching weapons.So here's the thing with styles... it seems to me that the massive crit potential of Pummeling just makes any other style kind of moot. Do you guys disagree with that?As far as the RAW, it definitely does. They will likely errata to just Unarmed/Close Weapons. RAI, it clearly was meant for Unarmed and/or Close Weapons.
Right now, if GMs actually let it work by the RAW, it's by far the best Style for Meleers. Two Feats and you have Pounce with 1 Crit for All.
I can't help but Agree it should be for any Close Weapons or Unarmed.