The title is a bit misleading, my real question is why is summon monster so much better! I mean if you compare summon monster (SM) and summon nature's ally (SNA) level by level SM beats SNA to a pulp. I may be exaggerating a bit but look at SM 6 and SNA 6 the best summon on both those list is the dire tiger but SM's dire tiger gets the celestial/fiendish templates which makes it 1 CR higher than SNA's dire tiger. And thats not even mentioning feat support which SM wins hands down (sacred summon anyone).
The only reason is see for this is to debuff druids as summoners, as there the main user of SNA. I mean would making SNA as powerful as SM really make the game unbalanced? if you know the answer please tell me I would love to know.
Thanks for any input.
They were not meant to be equal. If so they could have made summon monster or summon nature's ally instead of both. Part of it is thematic. Not every rule is based 100% around being equal. A druid is not likely to be calling on outsider or extraplanar creatures, but it makes sense for an arcane caster or a cleric to do so.
PS: Sacred Summon actually sucks, but I get your point.
They were not meant to be equal. If so they could have made summon monster or summon nature's ally instead of both. Part of it is thematic. Not every rule is based 100% around being equal. A druid is not likely to be calling on outsider or extraplanar creatures, but it makes sense for an arcane caster or a cleric to do so.
PS: Sacred Summon actually sucks, but I get your point.
When "thematic" concepts start having mechanical effects on the game (Fiendish/Celestial Templates are a fairly powerful thing to deal with), it really does beckon the question if that's really a fair difference.
That being said, I thought Druids could still summon things like Elementals and stuff?
We've made great use of Summon Minor Ally to act as distractions for casters and the like. Sure they auto die when they get hit, but still helpful.
We've made great use of Summon Minor Ally to act as distractions for casters and the like. Sure they auto die when they get hit, but still helpful.
I'm glad a full-progression caster has to worry about some puny creature getting in his face, dealing maybe 1 point of damage per round, assuming it can even hit.
Wraithstrike I get that part of the reason is thematic but if summon monster is meant to summon outsiders than why does it summon better animals than summon nature's ally?
Darksol summon nature's ally can summon elementals but so can summon monster! Also for pure damage the big cats are better.
We've made great use of Summon Minor Ally to act as distractions for casters and the like. Sure they auto die when they get hit, but still helpful.I'm glad a full-progression caster has to worry about some puny creature getting in his face, dealing maybe 1 point of damage per round, assuming it can even hit.
They can be used to block line of sight, and hey, the more times I make him roll concentration, even with a low cd, the more chances he fails.
Really using them as mobile sight blockers is pretty cool, if not fully blocking sight (since you can fit 4 tiny creatures in a square) at least you can get cover, or use the critters to go after the fireball pea, etc. having 3 raven pecking at your face should be at least mildly distracting.
Wraithstrike I get that part of the reason is thematic but if summon monster is meant to summon outsiders than why does it summon better animals than summon nature's ally?
Darksol summon nature's ally can summon elementals but so can summon monster! Also for pure damage the big cats are better.
Elementals are some of the strongest creature types from the SNA spell list. They're also about equal in that regard in comparison to SM, since I don't think you can put templates on them.
The Big Cats can deal more damage, but they require a lot of set up and ideal conditions which don't work out quite like they should. They're also squishier than Elementals, who usually have DR and/or Resistances/Immunities, and a lot more hit points and maybe AC. They also don't require pounce and the like to deal out their damage, since some of their special abilities can outplay the cats depending on the scenario.
Additionally, you don't really take SNA to deal damage with them; the concept is you draw bodies for crowd control and the like, and you have them help you (and maybe your AC) deal damage to the given enemy.
We've made great use of Summon Minor Ally to act as distractions for casters and the like. Sure they auto die when they get hit, but still helpful.I'm glad a full-progression caster has to worry about some puny creature getting in his face, dealing maybe 1 point of damage per round, assuming it can even hit.They can be used to block line of sight, and hey, the more times I make him roll concentration, even with a low cd, the more chances he fails.
Really using them as mobile sight blockers is pretty cool, if not fully blocking sight (since you can fit 4 tiny creatures in a square) at least you can get cover, or use the critters to go after the fireball pea, etc. having 3 raven pecking at your face should be at least mildly distracting.
Assuming they can even reach the wizard and actually hit him, their piddly damage won't interrupt any competent wizard's concentration checks.
Even trying to block sight becomes a problem, given the size of the creatures in question. Additionally, it's a two-way street. Blocking LoS for you also blocks LoS for him, meaning you aren't going to be able to stop him any more than he'll be able to stop you.
Darksol those are all good points all I'm trying to argue is that SM does those things just as well as SNA if not better thanks to better feat support.
And for more proof lets look at SM9 and SNA9, SM9 has 6 monster on its list SNA9 has 2, the highest CR monster on SM9 is CR 14 the highest on SNA9 is CR 13. To me this looks pretty cut and dry SM9 is better than SNA9.
SNA is suppose to be weaker.
But both get elementals which are generally a great summon option and the druid gets buffs for animals.
NOTE: Storm giants actually make for better meat than anything SM offers. +29 to-hit is not good by PC standards, but it is a summon.
Aren't creatures from Summon Nature's Ally supposed to be NOT warded out by Protection from {Alignment}? That would give them the advantage in certain situations. (I read this in one of the guides on Zenith Games' Pathfinder Guides page, but I forgot which one.)
A true neutral caster's summoned monsters wouldn't be affected by any of the protection spells either.
Edit: I get that SNA is supposed to be weaker but my question is why?
I don't see why people think Elementals are so much stronger than the big cat. I would rather have the cat. Yes they get DR. But by the time they get it most mobs can easily bypass it or hit for enough damage that it means little to them. And the resistance is situational at best if you ask me. Plus i feel they do rather weakish damage.
Now i will admit if Druid had a way to enlarge elementals like they do animals then it might be worth it to summon them.
Summon Nature Ally is supposed to be weaker. This goes back to the core book. The two classes that receive summon nature's ally are the druid and the ranger (at the time).
Compare the ranger to the only other light mage martial class - the paladin. Both have four levels of spells eventually. The ranger can summon nature's ally, the paladin cannot summon anything in their spell list.
Now compare the druid and the other three "nine level casters". The cleric, wizard, and sorcerer may always have the option to select summon monster, yet might opt for other spellcasting builds. The druid can always spontaneously switch spells to summon nature's ally - they were built with summoning in mind and could easily spam the field. Making the summon nature's ally spell weaker was about the only way to reign it in at the time, and not a very heavy handed way of doing it either.
Of course, with new classes and archetypes, this no longer applies. It's still what we have. Then again, for what uses I typically place summoning spells to, it really doesn't matter which of the two summon lists are stronger, they are both very useful if used correctly. It is just a pity that nature's ally have far less spellcasting allies (Pixies?).
Honestly I find it funny that the summoner is better at SNA than the druid..... (First worlder gets an expanded summons list that includes stuff like Unicorns)
They were not meant to be equal. If so they could have made summon monster or summon nature's ally instead of both. Part of it is thematic. Not every rule is based 100% around being equal. A druid is not likely to be calling on outsider or extraplanar creatures, but it makes sense for an arcane caster or a cleric to do so.
PS: Sacred Summon actually sucks, but I get your point.
When "thematic" concepts start having mechanical effects on the game (Fiendish/Celestial Templates are a fairly powerful thing to deal with), it really does beckon the question if that's really a fair difference.
That being said, I thought Druids could still summon things like Elementals and stuff?
They can because the elements are still nature concepts, but IIRC they can not summon celestial beings. I was thinking of devil, and demons, even though elementals are outsiders also.
Wraithstrike I get that part of the reason is thematic but if summon monster is meant to summon outsiders than why does it summon better animals than summon nature's ally?
Darksol summon nature's ally can summon elementals but so can summon monster! Also for pure damage the big cats are better.
Those animals are enhanced with a template that is in the "outsider" niche.
Different spell lists are better at different things. Arcane spells, specifically the wizard list has more of the 'impact' spells. The kinds that change the face of a situation. So their summons' which fall into the impact category are better.
The divine list is generally better at buffing, debuffing, and condition removal. The druid list is similar but in a nature theme. So their impact spells arent as potent as those on the arcane lists.
Asking why summon natures ally isnt as good as summon monster is like asking why the cure spells are better then infernal healing. Different spell lists/the classes that use them are better at different things.
Is there any templates that SNA get like the Fiendish/Celestrial that SM gets?
Not that I am aware of.
Currently playing a Wild Caller Summoner and loving that I can make full use of my summon list, as opposed to my Conjurer Wizard who wouldn't make use of summoned evil outsiders, both for personal RP reasons and for the fact that we have a stick in the mud paladin who probably would've killed me for it. And sure they can't smite but how many summoned animals have a high CHA score anyway? For my money the difference in power between SM and SNA is not very noticeable in play.
Currently playing a Wild Caller Summoner and loving that I can make full use of my summon list, as opposed to my Conjurer Wizard who wouldn't make use of summoned evil outsiders, both for personal RP reasons and for the fact that we have a stick in the mud paladin who probably would've killed me for it. And sure they can't smite but how many summoned animals have a high CHA score anyway? For my money the difference in power between SM and SNA is not very noticeable in play.
As a GM if the Paladin attacked a party member for summoning and forcing demons to help their cause, I would make that Paladin fall and probably kick that player out of the game.
If you are playing a Paladin just for an excuse to PK or be the fun police, you don't need to be at my table.
*Facepalm*
Let's not make this about paladins, guys. Take it off-thread.
Heh, paladin rant wasn't really my intention, and it was an exaggeration anyway. My point was when you've got a summoned bulette burrowing around and pseudo-pouncing and a stone giant frontlining and providing extra flanking, nobody (in my experience anyway) is going to miss the Lillend all that much. Is SNA weaker? Sure. But (again, in my experience) you aren't going to notice much in play unless you're looking for it.