|
See a lot of posts asking for advice on builds. And those ideas are generally awesome! However, it's rare to get a trip result on the results of those builds where it counts - on the mat. Started this log to do just that: report to the boards the game play results of this theorycrafted build. What follows is one Cavalier's romp through Nirmanthas ...
RACE: Halfling
CLASS: Emissary Cavalier (Order of the Sword)
ROLE: "striker", "wilderness scout", "hammer", "foil" (for strong female characters, aristocrats, or whiny spell casting types)
ALIGNMENT: LN
STR 15
DEX 18
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 10
leveling bonuses going to STR
TRAITS
Helpful (+4 vs +2 for aid another; useful for Thistle's trips and overly dependent members who constantly need help helping themselves)
Militia Veteran (+2 survival and class skill; seriously, it's dangerous out there and someone has to hunt if the "too-tall-for-their-own-good" associates are going to eat anything beside hard tack and barley wine)
SKILLS
maxing Ride through lvl 6; attention to Survival, K(Nobility), K(Religion), and Sense Motive(can smell a snake even as they slither close ...)
FEATS
1. Power Attack
B. Mounted Combat
3. Combat Reflexes
5. Combat Patrol
B. Mobility
6. Ride By Attack
7. Wheeling Charge
B. Spirited Charge
9. Tandem Trip
B. Trick Riding
Thistle
MOUNT: Wolf
CLASS: Charger Archetype
leveling bonuses going to STR; starter ranks in Survival and Swim; attention to Intimidate and Acrobatics
FEATS
1. Toughness
B. Armor (Light)
2. Power Attack
5. Spring Attack
B. Mobility
8. Tandem Trip
10. Impr Overrun
Baked into this on-going experiment are a couple ground rules.
1) We're playing Crypt of the Everflame and a related set of modules. Please refrain from spoilers or plot twists!
2) This isn't a playtest of the Cavalier class. It's a play test of a "deliberately mounted" Cavalier. Fully recognize there are many, many ways to build a fun, effective Cavalier. Or for that matter, a fun, effective mounted build that's not a Cavalier. However, what excited me about the Cavalier was the role playing possibilities enabled by the Order, the role playing / tactical elements of the Cavalier-Mount team, and the imagery / tactical fun of mounted combat - so that's what we're doing here.
3) Builds represent tactical and roleplaying choices. Results on the mat, in terms of fun, represent the value of the tactical choices. As this build progresses I'll be testing the results of those choices. In this case, the results of focusing on mounted combat, AoO's, and tripping from a (mostly) tactical perspective:
- party contributions: What contrbutions, in and out of combat, does a small, mounted Cavalier with a few extra skill ponts add to the party's survival? When is Calaveras most effective?? Least effective??
- mounted charge as a tactic: How many times is Calaveras able to charge? What effect did those charges have??
- mounted tactics in general: Are mounted combat feats really required to make mounted combat effective? Which mounted tactics work best?? What is most fun about playing a mounted character??
- trip as a tactic: Between a wolf Mount's free trip attacks and a guisarme tripping at reach, does tripping make a battlefield difference?
- Combat Reflexes as a feat choice: How many AoO's does this feat net over the course of a campaign? What effect do these have??
- Combat Patrol as a feat choice: How many AoO's does this feat net over the course of a campaign? What effect do these have??
With a mounted speed of 50 ft and relatively quick access to feats like RBA and Wheeling Charge, Calaveras is focused on hit-and-run strikes as a go-to with charge added in when lanes appear to do so. But he also has a few tricks up its sleeve when he has to defend. Fast dismounts are always an option when called for using Thistle as a welcome flanking companion.
Central to the build is Combat Reflexes at lvl 3 that takes advantage of a hi dex and a reach weapon. Then, leveraging Mobility as a bonus feat at level 5 for both Mount and Cavalier by providing easy access to Combat Patrol for the cavalier and Spring Attack for the Mount. Combat Patrol combined w up to 4 AoO's provides a nice option for situations where Calaveras needs to lock down a perimeter for other party members. Or to simply whittle down the competition when a mounted attack and/or charge aren't possible.
Later, the ability to Trip comes into play w Calaveras using secondary attacks w his guisarme (reach, trip) or AoO's to trip w Thistle benefiting fr a Large size and a free Trip ability. Tandem Trip as a teamwork feat provides both Mount and Cavalier extra fun.
And of course, charging. I don't know why, but I love to charge! Serious damage when it happens through early levels. Then, by mid-levels, encounter ending multipliers begin to take hold - the Charger archetype's ability to add half he Cavalier's Challenge damage, the OoSword's ability to pile on mount strength, and x3 pointyness w Spirited Charge. Initially supported by other party members creating lanes sporadically. Later by Wheeling Charge giving a surprise option now and then. And then Impr Overrun if we ever get that high.
|
|
Crypt of the Everflame
Session 1: This session really proved the value of a reach weapon. Between Thistle's 50 ft movement and the mindlessness of his opponets, Calaveras was able to make good use of his lance against the skeletons on the first level of the crypt.
- no charges
- no challenges
- 4 AoO's based on skeletons moving past reach of lance
- fun factor: ...
Session 2:
- charged twice: nearly one shotted a giant frog and did what apperaed to be good damage against an undead BBEG in the crypt in the final encounter
- 1 challenge vs the BBEG in the final encounter
- 2 AoO's based on skeletons movig past reach of lance
|
|
Session 3: This session found our band journeying to the great city of Tamran via boat. The cruise was eventful w the DM rolling someinteresting random encounters. All aboard our little merchant boat (he had a great boat battle map to supplement the story).
- interestingly, ship board combat on the wolf proved not to be a problem fr a maneuverability perspective though Thistle's speed advantage was muted
- the primary tactic continued to be exploiting a newly purchased guisarme at reach
- trips: landed a killer trip ona river hag that boarded the boat and passed around AoO goodness to the rest of the party
- charged: not once!
- challenges: just one challenge vs a cult leader that landed serious damage throughout the fight
- fun factor: very fun if different than expected; as many have commented, the cav can hold his own even w/o a mount and this ahs proven true; am also having fun w Know and Survival checks out of combat as the xtra cav skill points provide a little more fun when not charging (or trying to charge) things
|
|
Doing an update for Sessions 4 and 5 as we're about to wrap up the mini campaign we've been weaving from Mask of the Living God to the City of Golden Death. So far we've infiltrated and dismantled the cult as 3rd/4th level characters, and then explored the forbidden city. We've tracked the Razmiran cultists to the city center and had our first scuffle with them. Of note is the discovery of horseshoes of the zephyr in the Razmiran temple in Tamran that makes Thistle's speed a whopping 80 ft.
- medium mount: even on four legs with plausible questions from the DM, very adaptable in any terrain/conditions; no problem moving up stairs (with a low acro check) or on narrow ledges; even done some swimming (treading)
- charges: at 4th level have started to move past a pure reach tactician into more of a charger; charge tactics are really comign into their own w Cavalier's Charge (3rd) and 2 uses of Challenge (4th); saw nova, encounter ending moments with being able to charge and silence guards at opposite ends of a hallway in consecutive rounds and with the baubau guardian on the island - DM had himteleport back and forth across the bridge to stay out of reach but w a speed of 80 all that tactic accomplished was to set up righteous charge lanes
- trips: continues to be a great, situational tactic; Thistle doesn't hit often (see below), but when she does has then landed a trip or two; lot of fun when she does; aside from that Calaveras has found he can trip pretty reliable w his guisarme; have come to appreciate the value of denying a flanked or surrounded combatant their attack for a round versus simply damaging them; will be picking up tandem trip w Thistle at 6th so expecting this to become a really deadly tactic
- challenges: interestingly, as the marquee class feature of the cavalier, have been surprised there are game days i don't ever challenge a foe; tend to hoard for obvious single threats (like the babau), but don't always see them; in looking at the cav bf playing one was concerned the challenge would be too limited in availability to be a factor; hasn't been which has been a nice surprise; and oh the joy when it's up
- combat reflexes/combat patrol: have used combat reflexes once; once!; such a waste, received combat patrol at 5th, but have yet to use it; am not thinking this will happen, and have concluded the combat patrol effect isn't so much a nice complement to the emissary cavalier's natural mobility as it is ineffective; have found to guard the party it's more effective to simply use that speed and those acro checks to find flanks and head off mooks
- Thistle: have found it's fun to see a little personality emerging; have been surprised at how often Thistle doesn't hit; she's basically 80 ft of free movement a round; which is great - can totally alter an encounter - but had thought the AC would be more of a factor
- fun factor: still high; munchkins on wolves are just a blast; have emerged as a clear tank on the battlefield even w limited armor and surprised at ability to dispatch both mobs and tougher, single combatants with equal efficiency if different tactics
No Chain Challenge in a planned cavalier build makes me cry
Seems like a Combat Patrol with a 90 foot threatened area (10+80) should be worth setting up in most large area fights. Are you finding the first round of your encounters are too short ranged, or what?
I've played with GMs who routinely set up combats at melee 20-40 feet separation between the party & opponents without thinking. When we pointed out we had a character heavily invested in archery, some would make an effort to use perception to redetermine the range, while others did not.
|
|
Wow! Was just logging in to close out this thread with the read out of our final session in the City of Golden Death. Thank you all who replied. Will provide a read out in one post. And then reply to that with my own thoughts on your advice and questions.
First, the read out. Charge damage and the mobility granted by Thistle continued to be the story in battle. Overall, continued to blossom through levels 5 and 6 in my role as the primary damage dealer, or "hammer", as I moved form being an under armored reach fighter to a real mounted terror.
Key Charge Lesson: Have seen many posts on how to out damage a Tarasque using some combo of charge mechanics. That said, you can still own CR-appropriate encounters with just Power Attack and x2 damage.
On Combat Reflexes - Just weren't too many combats with more than 4 or 5 opponents on the map. And of those, just one or two had an AoO presented.
On Combat Patrol - Found it never made sense to settle in for a full round action when there were never more than a two opponents in threat range. Maneuvering for a charge, moving to full attack with my guisarme, or using my speed to cut off attackers headed at our squishies seemed to always be better uses of actions.
Key Combat Reflexes / Combat Patrol Lessons: Don't take them if you're a dedicated charger. Tactic synergy just isn't there. Seems really only appropriate for a reach focused pole arm build.
Key Cavalier Tactics Lessons: Was most surprised at how effective a Cavalier is just doing typical martial stuff without chargng or Challenging: full attacking, landing the occasional combat maneuver, and soaking up attacks. Certainly not the pure DPR power as a Fighter or Barbarian in a standard round. But good enough to do the job as the party's hammer and sometimes tank. Throw in Challenge and charge and felt Calaveras was more than equal.
|
|
Second, my thoughts on your thoughts.
No Chain Challenge in a planned cavalier build makes me cry....
Thank you. Had never seen this feat. It's amazing. If Calaveras sees a level 7 he will most certainly take it. Pretty much a must have for builds dedicating levels as a Cavalier.
Seems like a Combat Patrol with a 90 foot threatened area (10+80) should be worth setting up in most large area fights. Are you finding the first round of your encounters are too short ranged, or what?
I've played with GMs who routinely set up combats at melee 20-40 feet separation between the party & opponents without thinking. When we pointed out we had a character heavily invested in archery, some would make an effort to use perception to redetermine the range, while others did not.
Exactly, RegUS PatOff - encounters were too short ranged to make use of Thistle's mobility for Combat Patrol. And ... there were just never too many AoS's to ahrvest. For a dedicated charger with other tricks the CR + CP chain was a non-event in this three module adventure thread. And likely too situational in any standard campaign to be cosidered a good option to be used within a dedicated charger build. This even considering Emissary Cavaliers get Mobility for free.
The big beef with one is that rightly or wrongly they are identified as being too ... interlaced with the mount or something. I mean of the attractions to me would be to make a mounted character and really use Spirited Charge and the other mounted feats.
Yep, goes without saying that a mounted combatant is deeply interlaced with the mount. Mounted combat is a team sport. This is as true for Cavaliers with Animal Companions as it is for a Roughrider Fighter that is buying or training more mundane mounts. If you don't want to build and play your PC as a tandem, then you likely won't have much fun. I really liked the idea of a halfling and his canine buddy facing the world together, and enjoyed the extra roleplaying opp's and combat possibilities this afforded. But it's not for everyone.
Of course this brings us to the issue of fitting into places. I see you are playing a halfling, but how bad would it really be if you did play a medium size paladin? I guess if you are in Nirmathas you have a lot of outdoors stuff, but is the mount thing really as crippling as everyone says? Just thinking I can think of a lot of time in my experience you couldn't have used a mount, but a lot of times you could.
It would have sucked. The gods of the boards are right. You don't want a Large mount for most campaigns. While there was plenty of wide open roaming to be had in the Nirmanthas wilds, the city encounters in Tamran and the dungeon crawls in both Crypt of the Everflame and the City of Golden Death would have robbed me of my mount.
If you're playing a PC with a minor in mounted combat - like maybe most Paladin builds - and a major in other tricks, then a Large mount isn't going to be a drag. Like you said, there are plenty of times when you're not in a dungeon or tavern or similar. But if you're majoring in mounted combat, then you want to be Small.
Actually it seems to me that mechanically it would have worked in a lot of situations, but you basically don't stay mounted all the time. Like everyone is on foot looking at some kind of obelisk and you are the only guy staying on horseback. Just doesn't fit even a lot of outdoor situations.
Exactly. It just doesn't feel right.